Working as I do in IT for the NHS I predict that this will be the next big fiasco…

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/migrants-will-haveto-pay-at-ae–and-all-patients-will-have-to-prove-they-are-not-foreigners-to-get-treatment-free-on-the-nhs-9029586.html

So, simple questions:
1 Do you really think that medical/administration staff will be given the right training/systems to enact this?
2 Should a hospital turn someone away, either with trauma or once they’ve been stabilised?
3 How much do you think it will cost to add ‘charging’ systems to the NHS?
4 Does this now mean we all have to carry ID?
5 When will the first person die, who was eligible, but who either didn’t have the right documents or couldn’t prove it enough for someone not really qualified to know?
etc
etc

Far easier if the Govt actually went after the Euro monies they were entitled to first.

3 How much do you think it will cost to add ‘charging’ systems to the NHS?

More than they’ll actually make from the charging. That usually seems to be the case!

seems to work ok in other countries….

The sensible way to approach it is to insist that people cannot enter the country without valid comprehensive travel insurance.

If folk try to fly to the UK without it, charge the airlines, if folk arrive without it, they get to buy it before passport control.

Strange that jam bo, hey!!!

1 Do you really think that medical/administration staff will be given the right training/systems to enact this?

At a guess it means showing a card of some type, not sure that’s going to be an issue.

2 Should a hospital turn someone away, either with trauma or once they’ve been stabilised?

No. They’ll treat them, then charge them. This could of course mean a huge debt they can’t afford to pay for. I’d be more concerned about long-term diseases, the situation in the US where people without health insurance are unable to get care for their cancer for example.

3 How much do you think it will cost to add ‘charging’ systems to the NHS?

Loads, and I doubt it will save much money either.

4 Does this now mean we all have to carry ID?

Yes. Or at least have it. There will have to be some kind of mechanism for you to present your AE card later, I suppose. (Quite why you’re worried about carrying ID I’m not sure, but that’s a different matter…)

5 When will the first person die, who was eligible, but who either didn’t have the right documents or couldn’t prove it enough for someone not really qualified to know?

That won’t happen. What might happen is the poor Bulgarian who slashes his hand on a building site doesn’t get the treatment he needs, due to this stupid and unnecessary measure.

seems to work ok in other countries.

Other countries have systems where you present your insurance/entitlement card at the point of service already. In those systems it is extremely easy to make such provisions.

This is just about ramping up fear and hatred of johnny forigner. Health tourism has been shown to be something of a myth, while I am sure we would all prefer everyone to pay for any treatment they receive, are we really willing to pay far more to prevent a minor issue than it actually costs us in the first place.

Other countries have systems where you present your insurance/entitlement card at the point of service already. In such systems it is extremely easy to make such provisions.

And (at least in Spain) your ID card too. Can’t see that going down well with the Telegraph readers 🙂

It works elsewhere because they have systems to charge as part of the normal healthcare regime. Handing over €25 to a french gp was a weird experience to someone brought up on free at the point of delivery healthcare.

And ensuring evryone has valid travel insurance?… Not sure that would be easy, do you suggest a worldwide database of international health insurance or border officials carry out phone checks on everyone entering the country?

I suppose you could make everyone buy UK approved insurance, but only if you want to damage the big money from tourism and students, I believe people who work or seeking permenant residence get NHS healthcare anyway (unless rules have changed recently). How woul you feel if you were forced to take a specific state h/c insurance policy rather than shopping for your own next time you go on holiday to Canada?

I think the point is thatt admin cost will exceed income pretty much everywhere except central London, and the NHS will just ignore it. It only seems to apply to a pretty limited range of non-urgent procedures as well.

One day headline for Govt, pain in a@@@ for nhs.

Quite why you’re worried about carrying ID I’m not sure, but that’s a different matter…)

I don’t mind carrying ID – I usually have my wallet with some bank cards and a library card in it – it’s being required to carry ID. There’s a massive difference.

Definitely more about Tory panic over UKIP and electioneering than evidence based policy

BTW I thought farage played a blinder with his comments about taking in Syrian refugees

Hospitals in many other countries around the world seem to not have a problem in charging their patients or dealing with this issue. I’m sure there is an off the shelf IT solution ready to go, though i’m we’ll probably get ripped off on its implementation.

I really don’t see the controversy in charging non UK citizens. We have a National Health Service – not an International Health Service. I don’t get FOC health care in Europe and i’m an ‘EU citizen’ – I still need travel insurance if i’m travelling to Europe and one of those EU health cards.

Hopefully it will cost more to implement than it brings in. That way it would have served its primary function in being a deterrent for those looking to take advantage of our service. I’m sure its not intended to be something that is a cash generator with a positive business case.

Just because something is hard to implement doesn’t mean we should try. I’d gladly hold another card or form of ID or even pay a nominal fee that I can claim back later when visiting the GP or hospital. Its perfectly reasonable in my view. But really, is is that hard? We all have National Insurance Numbers so there is already a database that exists to track UK citizens’ status. People who come to the UK will then have to either produce a National Insurance number to be checked against the database, or other documents such as travel insurance, or even cash or cheque would do nicely.

Hopefully it will cost more to implement than it brings in. That way it would have served its primary function in being a deterrent for those looking to take advantage of our service. I’m sure its not intended to be something that is a cash generator with a positive business case.

😆

If it costs more to implement than it generates then its a success??? I mean really that’s your logic!

If it’s not hate, what the hell else could drive a desire to spend more on preventing a few people receiving health care, than the care actually costs.

5 years time – ‘We need to generate some income to pay for the infrastructure we put in place to charge foreigners. Luckily we now have the infrastructure to charge people for their medical care…’

The Department of Health said that “life-saving treatment” would still be free but all follow-up care would be charged for. “If you came into A&E with a blood clot or heart attack you would be stabilised for free but you would be expected to pay for subsequent care,” a spokeswoman said.

In other ‘non breaking not news’, the sun is set to rise tomorrow folks…

DrP

(this is the case already! It’s just rarely/badly implemented)

I thought that this was more an affirmation of existing policy too

I would also suspect that its more likely to have resources applied to using and enforcing it in some areas rather than across the board, such as hospitals where they see a high proportion of foreign patients

which sounds perfectly fair, non?

Kimbers – its the first ounce of sense thats come out of that clowns mouth – ever

We have a system for paying for healthcare – it’s called taxation. The NHS pays for a lot of things for the general good – treatments for smokers (and MTBers) who cause their own problems, treatments for obesity, gender reassignment, loads of things which you could say are non-critical.

And the reason is that it’s generally cheaper and better for society as a whole to do these things.

There’s no massive health tourism problem – estimates put the cost at around £3m per year, which is peanuts in NHS terms.

A large part of the issue is ben – in localised areas you have people from abroadz swamping the nhs meaning those that have paid for it through your system of taxation cannot get access to it .

But then down england way there are large areas where the abroadz people out number the english.

Hmm – people who aren’t working and paying tax?

Health tourism has been shown to be something of a myth

There’s no massive health tourism problem – estimates put the cost at around £3m per year, which is peanuts in NHS terms.

in other made up numbers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10540881/The-300-maternity-tourists.html

Guy’s and St Thomas’ Trust was last year owed £8.1?million in unpaid bills to health tourists over the past few years, according to freedom of information requests.

The trust recovered £600,000 from health tourists in 2012 — only 30 per cent of the amount billed — according to a recent report compiled by Westminster city council.

But even this may be a substantial underestimate, the report says, since up to two thirds of health tourists in the NHS are never identified or issued with bills.

This suggests that health tourists could be using up to £6 million worth of services a year at these two hospitals alone, with £5.4?million of that figure unrecovered.

That could apply to either scenario to be fair.

seems to work ok in other countries.

What other countries with a free healthcare or the ones that already charge?
Not that hard, even for the Tory fan boys [ and off course the neutral THM] to work out why that is the case.

Health tourism has been shown to be something of a myth,

Indeed just like the lie about our generous benefit system – its to make us all think we are in danger of invasion from foreigners coming here to sponge of us – in reality its the UK born ones who do this as they come here to strive – thought the right wing would welcome them with open arms and just want a cull, possibly on horseback with hounds, of the natives in council estates on boxing day,

EDIT: BnD Cheers for a link with could, should , might etc all the way through it and the usual ” the REAL figure could be much higher” – it could be much lower what can you prove eh :roll:- I think London may get more health tourism than say Lincoln but hey you cherry pick from amongst worst example and try and argue its typical and its from t he Torygraph- pandering to middle englands fears for the last century

Think DrP has it. Like the announcement about no benefits for 3 months, it’s publicising an existing situation that may or may not be implemented properly already. Think the NAO had a go about non collection of treatment costs by the NHS a few weeks back.

It’s the Tory press trying to detract from Farage’s refugee comments yesterday, and the hand wringing liberal/socialist press jumping on it to show the government is incompetent/panicking again. Same shit, different day!

: BnD Cheers for a link with could, should , might etc all the way through it and the usual ” the REAL figure could be much higher” – it could be much lower what can you prove eh :roll:- I think London may get more health tourism than say Lincoln but hey you cherry pick from amongst worst example and try and argue its typical and its from t he Torygraph- pandering to middle englands fears for the last century

I think we can agree that we don’t know the actual number for the entirity of the NHS, which was my point above, everyone is making up mumbers (it is a Rumsfeld issue)

however the FOIA figures should be correct in their context otherwise the information commissioner should be contacted, they already exceed the “£3million” aka peanuts line

the reality for most people is that when they go abroad they get lectured on E111’s and health insurance etc and then see stories about a number of people working the UK system, this then gets used/ abused by the various interest groups

Indeed just like the lie about our generous benefit system – its to make us all think we are in danger of invasion from foreigners coming here to sponge of us – in reality its the UK born ones who do this as they come here to strive – thought the right wing would welcome them with open arms and just want a cull, possibly on horseback with hounds, of the natives in council estates on boxing day

ignoring the glorious over simplification, it is clear that encouraging the “difficult to employ” into gainful employment is stymied by importing lots of enthusiastic people into the same labour market. The current system seems to be constructed to reduce the % unemployed rather than the number simply by expanding the number in employment

The sensible way to approach it is to insist that people cannot enter the country without valid comprehensive travel insurance.

How would that be checked? Who would do it? How would you prove that you have health insurance?

the reality for most people is that when they go abroad they get lectured on E111’s and health insurance etc and then see stories about a number of people working the UK system, this then gets used/ abused by the various interest groups

I’d be surprised if there are many E111s shown by British holiday makers in Shagaluf, Prague, or Dublin General Hospitals getting stitched up after copping a fist to the face, a heart attack after the fifteenth pint of Watney’s Red Barrel, or binning a moped. 🙁

I’m sure there is an off the shelf IT solution ready to go,

Are you sure you’ve not been one of my Bosses in a past life?

Most of them had no idea either on how much effort it takes to implement quality systems across vast organisations.

At a guess it means showing a card of some type, not sure that’s going to be an issue.

Yep, another one guessing rather than thinking.

however the FOIA figures should be correct in their context otherwise the information commissioner should be contacted, they already exceed the “£3million” aka peanuts line

This though you need to be careful with, as often patients (especially if from outside the Health Board) are just allocated a ‘postcode’ which is then confirmed often at a later date – but usually only when the Board is claiming costs against another Board. Consequently a large percentage of the monies ‘unclaimed’ can easily be for UK citizens.

you enter the hospital any hospital today and they pull up your details GP stuff etc i simply cannot see what the problems are.. if they dont have your details they ask for your credit card details and or your health insurance documents.. how hard can it be..

stop looking for problems start looking for solutions..

you enter the hospital any hospital today and they pull up your details GP stuff etc i simply cannot see what the problems are.. if they dont have your details they ask for your credit card details and or your health insurance documents.. how hard can it be..

stop looking for problems start looking for solutions

Because everyone attending hospital is conscious and knows their GP/address.

In any case, if you end up in hospital (as a non UK resident) without an ehic card then either you or your insurance ALREADY has to pay your bill. If you refuse to pay and leave then the NHS can chase you for payment and even team up with UKBA to refuse reentry into the country until you pay up.

This whole thing is the Tories trying to win back voters from UKIP by reannouncing vaguely anti-foreigner policies that are already in place and have been for years.

stop looking for problems start looking for solutions..

And you do know that not all Health Boards, hospitals and GP’s are on anyway near the same set of systems don’t you? And GP’s within a Board area are quite often on different sets of systems too.

I really don’t think, in fact I know, that you don’t understand how expensive/time-consuming it will be to put in a wholly new set of systems (and cultural changes) on top of the existing systems/processes – and expect it to work.

I really don’t think, in fact I know, that you don’t understand how expensive/time-consuming it will be to put in a wholly new set of systems (and cultural changes) on top of the existing systems/processes – and expect it to work.

Well, the last Government attempt cost upwards of twelve billion, never came anywhere near functioning properly, and ended up being scrapped.
Pretty much like all large-scale IT systems that have the dead hand of Government bureaucracy behind them.

wobbliscott – Member

Hopefully it will cost more to implement than it brings in. That way it would have served its primary function

Ah, satire.

The sensible way to approach it is to insist that people cannot enter the country without valid comprehensive travel insurance.

How would that be checked? Who would do it? How would you prove that you have health insurance?

You make the airline check it, and pursue them for any outstanding costs. If it is an issue, lets remember that we’re all in it together, and get the travel companies to do the leg work and take the hit.

I’m sure they could make a profit from it…

5 years time – ‘We need to generate some income to pay for the infrastructure we put in place to charge foreigners. Luckily we now have the infrastructure to charge people for their medical care…’

I don’t believe this for a second. This is an existing policy (certainly was in force in 2002) and this is all about demonising foreigners and sucking up to potential UKIP voters than either addressing a real problem, or introducing charging for use (which would be total political suicide).

You make the airline check it, and pursue them for any outstanding costs

What about people who turn up on a boat (their own or a ferry/cruise ship) or get the tunnel?
What about people who are here for a long time? They arrive with a valid policy, the policy expires, 9 months later they get punched by a drunk and the airline gets the bill?

What about people who turn up on a boat (their own or a ferry/cruise ship) or get the tunnel?

Can’t do much about those coming alone, but no travel without insurance would seem to be easy to implement; all the infrastructure is already in place.

What about people who are here for a long time?

If you are registered with a GP it’s no longer a problem.

My point is that the easiest way to solve the issue, if it is one, is to do it at or before the point of entry; it’s an administrative issue, not a healthcare one.

Can’t do much about those coming alone, but no travel without insurance would seem to be easy to implement; all the infrastructure is already in place.

So how are you going to check that there is anything actually backing-up the insurance; ie able to pay out? Normally people buy insurance for them, whereas here they are buying it because they have to – so will go for the cheapest.

Or are you saying they have to buy UK-state backed/agreed insurance?

So how are you going to check that there is anything actually backing-up the insurance; ie able to pay out? Normally people buy insurance for them, whereas here they are buying it because they have to – so will go for the cheapest.

You say to the travel companies, air, sea, tunnel, etc., that they have to do it.

As above, if we really are all in it together, it’s about time they pulled their respective fingers out…

The point is, not whether some are freeloading on our tax funded healthcare system – which probably happens to some unquantified degree, but whether the cost of recovery is more or less than reduction of the loss. The cost in this case being system in the NHS to recover or loss of income from tourism, students etc of having draconian entry requirements.

I really think the costs would outweigh the savings if the policy were properly pursued – but I equally think that nothing much will happen, it’s just a headline without substance, nothing more than a clarification of the rules as they pretty much stand now.

Edit

Being a cynical and suspicious type, I see a possible explanation for the proposal. Clearly this sort of system would cost far more to set up than would be brought in by charging a few foreign types for their treatment. However, once you have it set up you could easily use it for charging all the rest of us for our healthcare.

Where’s Kaesae when you need him…