The net result of family break down

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  • The net result of family break down
  • geetee1972
    Member

    Support For Mortgage Interest helps people pay the interest on their mortgages if they receive a range of other benefits like income support or job seekers’ allowance.

    Amanda Copeland, who lives in a bungalow in Saltdean with her three young children. Amanda gave up work as a nurse in June to look after her children, who are all under the age of eight.

    She says she could not afford to pay for childcare while they were all so young.

    Full story here

    I know this is a contentious story, so this comments is made purely as an observation, not as bait.

    Families breakdown – couples separate – one party gets custody – that party has to live on what the other party AND the state can afford to pay in maintenance – there isn’t enough money to maintain the situation – benefits are cut – people, and more importantly children, fall into poverty.

    Surely it would be better if the families didn’t break up in the first place?

    So the question is, if that is accepted as true, then how far has society encouraged the break up of the family and is it so wrong to want to promote the family unit as the ideal scenario to bring up children?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    What is your point? That they should be forced to live together?

    mrmo
    Member

    two issues, people go into marriage to lightly, i think that for some it is what you do, but when things go wrong you get a divorce. ALmost to easy.

    But there are relationships where there is no point trying to make it work so you need a way out.

    iDave
    Member

    people go into marriage to lightly

    who does this? what’s your evidence?

    at no stage did i think that society was making it easy for me to separate and divorce. quite the contrary. never had a second thought for what the benefits system could offer either side.

    Surely it would be better if the families didn’t break up in the first place?

    have you invented a hindsight generator?

    Agree with mrmo.

    People have rushed into marriage too easily, for too long.

    I seldom hear young women talking about marriage or how they can’t wait to get married. Conversely, I’m forever hearing them talking about weddings!
    That’s where the focus is, that one day. Spurred on by the ludicrous celebrity culture, young couples who in many cases had little money to begin with are spending £20-30K on their ‘perfect day’.

    Starting married life not just skint, but in debt, seems pretty stupid to me. A lot of young men seem to have abandoned the idea of marriage entirely. Certainly amongst my male friends (26-33), few if any of them can envisage getting hitched before the age of 35 at the very earliest.

    iDave
    Member

    so who is marrying the women rushing into marriage if the men have abandoned the idea of marriage? sounds like you’re just old and grumpy with no coherent argument.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    I just wonder how he hears so many women talking about weddings. If he does how he’s never heard they getting married but sime how are having a wedding. He also seems to believe the media hype that everyone spends £30k on a wedding these days.

    I’m 30 and having a lovely time, thanks.

    How’s life going post-failed relationship?

    Drac – Moderator

    I just wonder how he hears so many women talking about weddings. If he does how he’s never heard they getting married but sime how are having a wedding

    Bollocks to English translator anyone?

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Ah reverting to insults already then are we. Your posts from now on have become meaningless.

    anokdale
    Member

    I dont think people enter marriage too easily without thinking etc, it is just so easy to get out of a marriage in this day and age because so much help is given to single parents, 40-50 yrs ago folk did not break up because there was no alternative you had to make it work.

    iDave – Member

    sounds like you’re just old and grumpy with no coherent argument.

    *Whistles*

    Did your ex object to hypocrisy too?

    iDave
    Member

    How’s life going post-failed relationship?

    No one goes through life without a failed relationship. And life is pretty good, thanks for asking.

    The breakdown of family units has nothing to do with marriage, religion or tax breaks to the married and everything to do with a change in the moral value’s of society.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Your right AA we’ve moved on from Victorian times and now accept that sometimes relationships can break down and shouldn’t be frowned upon.

    you’ve missed a few twists and turns inbetween the two Drac, but I agree. Funny thing is I am not and will not get married, I think its a load of pseudo religous hokus pokus, yet sooo many get married who have no religious belief to back it up. Its become a meaningless aim in life. The reason for family breakdown being so frequent though must be economic, the state rightly will support people unable to support themselves.

    ji
    Member

    I have some sympathy with the contention that people take marriage a bit too lightly. Having read the linked story, and having 4 young kids of my own, I think there is another cause.

    Childcare in this country is ridiculously over regulated – my kids spend time with other families, sleep overs at friends etc, and I use my judgement as to who I feel is fit to look after them. However if I tried to use those same friends as a source of regular childcare provision to allow my wife to work – even if no money changes hands – then I am breaking the law.

    The net effect is that childcare is too expensive to be worth my wife working, and my family are not in a position to help. At the moment as I work this is not a problem. If I lose my job, or have to take one that pays less than I currently get, then the state will wind up paying because they won’t let me as a parent decide who is best placed to look after my children.

    DickBarton
    Member

    Surely values and morals comes into it – it’s too easy these days to change your mind…look at our grandparents – many of them lived on together until they died (or are still living together) – very few divorced/separated (it did happen but not as often as it does nowadays) – surely if you make a commitment like that then it is for life and not when something else comes along?

    In days gone by divorce was seen as a terrible thing, now it’s almost like a badge of honour…it isn’t good and thankfully I totally disagree with it (but then I’ve got old values/morals)…

    Premier Icon trailertrash
    Subscriber

    Ah reverting to insults already then are we. Your posts from now on have become meaningless.

    playground tactics. adult discussion. mismatch?

    theyEye
    Member

    anagallis_arvensis – Member

    … the state rightly will support people unable to support themselves.

    You’re being too cavalier with my money aa.

    You’re being too cavalier with my money aa

    in your opinion, not mine. Maybe you would prefer to have no welfare state and be forced to live in an enclosed compound, I wouldnt.

    deepreddave
    Member

    OP – I think society has by offering a financial support blanket to some ‘couples’ who had no real regard for the consequences of their procreation or plan as to how to pay for their kids.

    That’s completely different as to whether society ‘encourages’ separation. I don’t think it does although the stigma of a failed relationship/marriage has reduced significantly.

    I’m a divorced Dad in a stable relationship but think those who’ve never experienced divorce or worked through tough times as a couple probably have much less idea about the whys in a separation. I never ever envisaged getting divorced but sometimes sh1t happens. It’s how you d/w it that counts. being financially independant enables you to do that more easily. Staying together for money’s sake isn’t always constructive.

    zokes
    Member

    Drac – Moderator

    Ah reverting to insults already then are we. Your posts from now on have become meaningless.

    To be fair, it did take about four reads to work out what it said, and even then it didn’t make much sense… Would you like me to pick up the toys you’ve just launched?

    bazzer
    Member

    The breakdown of family units has nothing to do with marriage, religion or tax breaks to the married and everything to do with a change in the moral value’s of society.

    Agree totally and its a shame, some couples if they could only get over short term problems would be able to live happily ever after for the rest of there lives if they didn’t give up.

    Funny thing is I am not and will not get married, I think its a load of pseudo religous hokus pokus, yet sooo many get married who have no religious belief to back it up. Its become a meaningless aim in life.

    Not strictly just religious it is a legal framework too, but I agree a lot of people get married in church who are non religious.

    Bazzer

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    we’ve moved on from Victorian times

    Drac hits the nail on the head.

    During the Victorian era of hard work and moral integrity, when a husband had the legal right to chastise his wife with any reasonable instrument, and there was an abundant supply of young ladies of ill repute, families stayed together. A father’s right to administer a damn good thrashing on a regular basis, also helped to keep children happy.

    Hopefully our present government’s determined commitment to return to these core Victorian values of hard work and moral integrity, will bring about greater societal and family cohesion. They have already taken the first very important steps in dealing with the problem of the idle poor.

    Of course we must not lose sight of the fact there will always be some families, which for whatever reasons, will lack a breadwinner and provider. For these wretched souls we need to face up to our Christian duties and provide them with charitable relief.

    I suggest something along the lines of work houses. Establishments which supply them with the bare essentials in return for honest hard toil. Of course it is absolutely vital that the conditions should be both harsh and austere, otherwise they will simply feel they are being rewarded for their lack of moral direction.

    Not strictly just religious it is a legal framework too

    but those laws are based on religous values.

    I’d argue as a nurse, she has greater flexibility in working hours tha a lot of other divorced parents. I work with many nurses who have got divorced, in fact over the last 12 months it seems to have become a trend on the unit that I work. Don’t know how many if any have put themselves forward for such a benfit, none have finished work simply for childcare reasons, some have shifted onto permanent nights, others have condensed their hours from 7 1/2 hour days into long day shifts of 12 to 14 hours, meaning they work fewer days and have less days of childcare to arrange.

    avdave2
    Member

    I think one important question is what is the father of these children doing to ensure his children don’t become homeless. I have no idea and he may be doing all he can or he may not. If he is left with more disposable income than his ex wife then he isn’t doing enough and I don’t think the rest of us should have to step in if he isn’t making the same sacrifices as she is. If they are both doing all they can then in the long run it will be cheaper for all of us to support them until she can go back to work.

    Reasonable of Saltdean

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    I can’t see where it says she’s divorced in the original article?

    geetee1972
    Member

    Yeah you know marriage has very little to do with it, more the issue of living in a traditional family unit.

    It’s one thing to create a society that says it’s aboslutely fine for the family unit to break up, but it’s another to then live with the consequence, especially when society cannot afford the consequence.

    Two is better than one in that regard; the veiled religious reference is not intended as a religious reference, just a very practical, and unassailable observation.

    tron
    Member

    IIRC we have a particularly poor divorce rate in the UK.

    First things I’d point at as causes would be the fact that we tend to work long hours and be heavily indebted in this country. It’s very difficult to make any relationship work if you barely see each other and are under heavy financial pressure.

    Long hours, high house prices (which lead to BFO debts) and family breakdown are all pretty bad from an economic point of view – you get low productivity and mental health problems, gerontocracy and benefits bills.

    Shift the culture towards working smarter, building enough houses where people actually want them, remove the false conceit that house price inflation makes people who own one home richer, and we might see things improve.

    thomthumb
    Member

    you say marriage is entered into too lightly.

    It could be suggested it is the opposite; having been looking at my family tree (over the last 400 years) when a parent died; the remaining parent would be remarried within a year – with a new mother/ father figure replacing the deceased within the family unit.

    there are indeed examples where children are left with 2 parents unrelated to them when both their biological parents have died within years of each other.

    It could be argued that actually we take marriage too seriously and tolerate the living outside the ‘family unit’ model too much.

    Premier Icon midlifecrashes
    Subscriber

    Just read the article, at no point does it say there was ever a marriage or a divorce, or that she has ever lived with any of the father or fathers of her three children. More a case of, young children need looking after full time, you can’t do that while at work and she doesn’t earn enough to pay someone to do it so will someone(taxpayers) please buy her a house. Where did family breakup come in to it?

    Premier Icon footflaps
    Subscriber

    We don’t have a family friendly work culture nor society, wages are too low requiring two people to work, putting strain on the relationship. It’s a wonder so many marriages work IMHO.

    RichPenny
    Member

    We don’t have a family friendly work culture nor society

    Probably true, it is possible to buck the trend though, especially if you have the ability to roughly define your working life.

    wages are too low requiring two people to work

    I’d say that too many people have materialistic aspirations beyond their means, and thus manage the work/life balance incorrectly. Luckily (?), I’m with someone who’s experienced real poverty so am made to feel grateful for what I have. Which is a pretty decent lifestyle in general.

    geetee1972
    Member

    [/quote]Where did family breakup come in to it?

    It doesn’t really matter if there was or wasn’t a break up. The point is that it’s a parent of three children trying to do it on their own, which is ten times harder than if there are two.

    Having said that, if the individual in the story cannot afford the mortgage now and needed benefit help to make ends meet, then it’s highly unlikely her ownership of the house is anything other than the result of a break up with her partner/husband.

    The cost of (good quality) childcare is pretty scary. Full time child minder is in the order of £700 to £1000 per month. Nursery fees aren’t far off.

    I still don’t think that the story is highlighting the cost of childcare though; it’s highlighting the cost of being a single parent, both to the parent(s) and the state.

    I also don’t think you can argue with the notion that we have made it terribly easy for people to be in this situation.

    First you make marriage less of a big deal
    Then you make divorce easier to grant legally speaking
    Then society decides it’s perfectly OK for people to get divorced
    And then society becomes increasingly fickle and self centred thus accelerating the situation.
    And before you know it you’ve got a several hundred? thousand? percent increase in the number of single parent families trying to make ends meet on one income (i.e. maintenance) spread across two households.

    Premier Icon cinnamon_girl
    Subscriber

    It would be sad to see the demise of the traditional family unit and whilst it has worked for centuries, it perhaps needs tweaking for modern day needs?

    Far too many people have children when they are unable to support them, both emotionally and financially. The State should not be so ready to pick up the pieces – people need to take some responsibility for themselves.

    As for the serial impregnators, they should be sterilised, unless they can prove they are able to support both financially and emotionally the many offspring they father.

    I also feel very strongly that more Council housing (social housing as it’s now called) should be built as mortgages are not appropriate for everyone. Owning your own home is not the holy grail.

    FWIW I would never have been able to manage/cope as a single parent. That’s from a viewpoint of looking back as mine are adults.

    Premier Icon cinnamon_girl
    Subscriber

    Then you make divorce easier to grant legally speaking

    Not necessarily. Two people have to agree.

    Then society decides it’s perfectly OK for people to get divorced

    Believe me, I do feel a bit of a failure for not making my marriage work. But I may well be the exception.

    project
    Member

    Go back to work luv, in the job we payed for you to be trained as, claim tax credits and the childcare allowance, to um pay for the care of your kids, also should they not be in school most of the day.So you could work around them

    geetee1972
    Member

    Not necessarily. Two people have to agree.

    I didn’t know that. I thought that it largely didn’t matter if one party didn’t consent if there had been an obviously irreconcilable break down then the courts would grant the divorce anyway.

    Believe me, I do feel a bit of a failure for not making my marriage work. But I may well be the exception.

    I think you illustrate the point though very well, which is that 30 years ago, there would have been another pressure other than your own sense of failure acting upon you that may well have meant you didn’t get divorced.

    Please know that I am not judging anyone on the basis of the success or otherwise of their marriage (at least not until I’m on my death bed and have a clean record of my own!)

    I really am just making the connection between the phenomena, the social cost and the question of ‘ok well what do we do now given that we can’t afford it’.

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