If I want a university education, then I should pay for it. Expecting people who don’t go to pay for it is the thing that strikes me as greedy.

It depends whether or not you consider the opportunity to improve yourself a privilege or a right.

The issue with making people pay for things is that many people don’t have much. So you’re making it harder for poor people to achieve stuff than rich people.

Money should not affect your opportunities in life. That is HUGELY important. Fundamental even.

Yes, I’d be happy with that, sounds good to me. For example, If I want a university education, then I should pay for it. Expecting people who don’t go to pay for me is the thing that strikes me as greedy.

What strikes me as kind of stupid is imagining that things like education, health etc. are things that can be bought and consumed by an individual with no impact on wider society. If the population are unhealthy and can’t work, can’t afford to live near their work, have poor housing, have low skills and education, then we all suffer, even you, with your self-bought degree certificate.

If I want a university education, then I should pay for it.

People used to think that a supply of decent graduates benefited the country as a whole (so the country as a whole should pay something) as well as the individual (who paid more tax in return for their higher salary – assuming they well for the cash and not a life of public service).

But things change.

That’s why even Keynes would suggest you borrow for infrastructure so you can stop the spending when the up cycle comes.

And the neoliberal alternative to that is tax cuts when “the up cycle comes”. Both Labour and the Tories have embraced that alternative policy.

Maybe it’s because we’re saddled with a sh1t load of debt at basically 0% interest which is a ticking time bomb as interest rates will inevitably go up and therefore the cost of servicing that debt.

There are no guarantees that if you invest x amount in infrastructure you will get y amount of GDP growth – it is a risk, and obviously a risk that the current government doesn’t fancy too much going forward, hence wanting to address the deficit.

I don’t think historical comparisons are valid going forward. The world has changed alot recently, alot of the old rules and established mechanisms no longer apply. the future is alot less certain. It’s the prudent thing to get a grip on our deficit while we can.

It’s right that any government should treat every £ of OUR money like it was heir own and robustly question what return/benefit it will get back for every £ spent.

Reading the last two pages, Keynes will be turning in his grave and economics teachers across the land will be wincing!!! No wonder the politicians can get away with murder….

Time to make it a compulsory subject! 😉

What makes you think the economics ‘experts’ know any more than the non-experts? they hardly saw the last credit crunch and global economic crisis coming did they? If they did they seemed clueless about what to do to avoid it. They’re guessing just as much as the rest of us.

Oh I see and stand corrected. As you were….

ChubbyBlokeInLycra – Member

Are you saying with your PhD you still cannot make sense of my views?

You’re an idiot.
What you post on here is idiotic. It’s not worth the effort of reading, far less trying to understand, no matter how clever you think you’re being. I tried it once and it was moronic drivel.
You’d understand that if you weren’t such an idiot.

HTH [/quote]

What’s up Chubby? Why do you sound so angry? Idiot this and idiot that? Explain yourself with reference to the term ‘idiot’. 😛

I only used the term “Bastid ZMs” in reference to full EU membership, unless of course you considered my description as accurate? Yes?

Chill Chubby chill … 😀

I’m currently receiving government funding to pay for my education following a career change.

My chosen career is initially, very poorly paid.
I need these qualifications to progress.
I could not afford to pay for these qualifications on my wage alone.

In fact, I couldn’t afford to live on my wage alone.

Luckily, my wife is very understanding. 🙂

Free education increases the sum total of human happiness.
It enables us to be better, both individually and collectively.
Stick a price on that.

What makes you think the economics ‘experts’ know any more than the non-experts? they hardly saw the last credit crunch and global economic crisis coming did they?

THM did. Of course he did.

He didn’t come on here and warn us though, but he’s explained that’s only because he’s a little coy……..he’s a bit shy when it comes to sharing his “expertise” with us. Hadn’t you noticed?

outofbreath – Member

Presumably we’re at the point where if services aren’t cut we lose the good credit rating and end up paying higher interest rates which forces us to errr… cut services

Ah yeah, “we have to cut or we’ll lose our top credit rating” argument that Osborne so succesfully used. Until 2013, when we lost our top credit rating, then suddenly credit ratings weren’t important and you should just forget he ever mentioned them. Still, it’s nice to see the classics get a showing from time to time.

😀

Don’t finish the whole bottle

😀

@somadunk I thought Cameron was outstanding. Compare that the the rambling incoherence of Corbyn last week. Cameron had energy and enthusiasm. Corbyn looked tired, jaded and old.

How does that work, exactly? You cut the NHS and then the doctors and nurses cure people for free?

DrJ the Tories have pledged to increase NHS spending. By the £8bn the NHS has said it needs and that substantially more than the £2bn Laboir said they would if elected.

All the news coverage tonight (BBC 10 and Newsnight) has been on how Cameron has ceased the middle ground and again reiterating that the middle ground is what wins elections (same points made yesterday)

I read also that Corbyn will be “too busy” to attend the Privy Council ceremony so he wo t have to kneel before the Queen. Another massive error I’d say, I can’t see any middle ground swing voters being pursueded by that and it will alienate many Laboir voters. Another open goal for the Tories to score

jambalaya – Member

All the news coverage tonight (BBC 10 and Newsnight) has been on how Cameron has ceased the middle ground

Never a truer word spoken in typo

jambalaya – Member

I thought Cameron was outstanding. Compare that the the rambling incoherence of Corbyn last week. Cameron had energy and enthusiasm. Corbyn looked tired, jaded and old.

Well if you thought “Cameron was outstanding” that’s really impressive because we all know how much it takes for a Tory politician to convince you jambalaya.

You also thought that Corbyn looked tired, jaded, and rambling incoherently, and yet you usually have such kind words to say about Corbyn…….he must have been truly awful!

Seriously jambalaya, you don’t have post on here as if you are standing in the lobby of the conference hall giving an interview to the BBC.

Regurgitating Tory spin is pretty ineffectual on here.

But marks for trying anyway.

Look, even the Staggers is publishing Tory Spin now:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/10/david-cameron-s-speech-hymn-liberalism-liberated-pm

Then Zebadee arrived and said”time for bed”

Cameron looks like a fat sausage ready to explode! Corbyn looks much healthier to my eyes. But maybe I am as blinkered as you clearly are. (jambalaya)

@somadunk I thought Cameron was outstanding.

Jamba and Cameron sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G

DrJ the Tories have pledged to increase NHS spending. By the £8bn the NHS has said it needs and that substantially more than the £2bn Laboir said they would if elected.

Not true, but anyway, my point was something else.

Look, even the Staggers is publishing Tory Spin now:

We’ll see how much of that he actualy achieves (assuming for a moment that he actually wants to achieve it). It is the height of cynicism to announce a war on poverty and simultaneously announce measures that will plunge more people into poverty, to claim to help people get homes by announcing a bonanza for developers, to claim to end discrimination at the same time your Home Secretary vilifies immigrants.

Cameron looks like a fat sausage ready to explode!

Did somebody say “sausage”? How insensitive!!

I read also that Corbyn will be “too busy” to attend the Privy Council ceremony so he wo t have to kneel before the Queen.

Perhaps one of the other current 500 or so privy councillors can go in his place? Won’t be bending the knee anyway, that’s a different ceremony on a different date.

Don’t let the fact get in the way of your politics though Jam…

I read also that Corbyn will be “too busy” to attend the Privy Council ceremony so he wo t have to kneel before the Queen.

Why should anyone *have* to kneel before another person? Courtesy, yes. Subservience, most definitely not.

I listened to Cameron’s speech yesterday and by the time he had finished I was furious that he was allowed to spout such utter lies and bullshit.

Cameron didn’t attend Privy Council until 3 months after his appointment – no one suggested he was reluctant to kneel before the Queen or was showing her disrespect.

On average about 5 of the 600 Councillors turn up so Corbyn’s not alone in finding other things more important.

Jamby, if you believe the Tories are improving the NHS you are on another planet

2nd junior doctor at my work has accepted a job offer in Australia this month.
The Tories have already succeeded in bringing it down imo

I thought Cameron was outstanding. Compare that the the rambling incoherence of Corbyn last week. Cameron had energy and enthusiasm. Corbyn looked tired, jaded and old

What I thought was how he spoke about things he will never ever even attempt to do never mind deliver

Its was a fantastic piece of style over substance so no wonder it struck a chord with you

Dont get me wrong he sells a message very very well but even you jam*
cannot think he will be setting off , or the party, on a personal mission to eradicate poverty and make opportunity equal for all. It was spin to claim the middle ground but he wont actually try to deliver on his pledges.

* ok you might but somone rational

Cameron didn’t attend Privy Council until 3 months after his appointment – no one suggested he was reluctant to kneel before the Queen or was showing her disrespect.

Indeed, Corbyn’s record as a backbencher makes almost everything he does as leader look deeply wrong. Blair, Brown or Milliband never had these problems. Corbyn is a poor choice of leader.

You can just see the Labour press team huddle:

“Cameron’s speech has gone down like a storm – he said Jezza hated Britain, we need to counter it!”

“I know! we’ll tell the press that Jeremy is too busy to meet the Queen”

“Brilliant!”

Indeed, Corbyn’s record as a backbencher makes almost everything he does as leader look deeply wrong. Blair, Brown or Milliband never had these problems. Corbyn is a poor choice of leader.

Eh? So a good choice of Labour leader would be someone acceptable to the Tory press? That’s some impressive logic!

So a good choice of Labour leader would be someone acceptable to the Tory press? That’s some impressive logic!

Thats how Blair won elections.

Do you think that a Tory government would have introduced the human rights act, working time regulations or the minimum wage?

You can just see the Labour press team huddle:

“Cameron’s speech has gone down like a storm – he said Jezza hated Britain, we need to counter it!”

“I know, we’ll tell the press that Jeremy is too busy to meet the Queen”

“Brilliant!”

More likely:

“Cameron’s speech has gone down like a storm – he said Jezza hated Britain, we need to counter it!”

“I know, we’ll tell the press [anything at all]”

HEADLINE – Corbyn in Devil-Worshipping Scandal !!

It’s the 21st century and we have a “Privy Council”.

I rather like Corbyn’s attitude re: the “monarchy”, myself.

Do you think that a Tory government would have introduced the human rights act, working time regulations or the minimum wage?

But but but …. CMD has announced a War on Poverty!! Are you suggesting that the Tories are not actually committed to social justice, and it’s all a big con?

I read also that Corbyn will be “too busy” to attend the Privy Council ceremony so he wo t have to kneel before the Queen.

Welcome to 21st century Britain. Just like 18th century Britain in oh so many ways

They could easily have killed this story – they could even have fudged it with a bow instead of a kneel

instead they have made the most fundamental mistake possible, they have managed to keep the story running – and it will come back at the next meeting, and the next meeting, until he finally does, and all that time the Tories don’t have to talk about their policies, they don’t have to talk about poverty – they can just keep talking about Jeremy not kneeling in front of the Queen. Its manna sent from heaven for the tories!

But but but …. CMD has announced a War on Poverty!! Are you suggesting that the Tories are not actually committed to social justice, and it’s all a big con?

Thats like saying that Blair wasn’t committed to economic and functional reforms, and that it was all a big con – of course he was, thats why its called centre ground politics – everyone warned that if the Labour party lurched left, Cameron would seize the middle ground, and all the lefties shouted in union ‘lalala we’re not listening’, and look what he’s just done 😆

It’s the 21st century and we have a “Privy Council”.

I rather like Corbyn’s attitude re: the “monarchy”, myself.

Agreed, it’s a completely ridiculous institution in a “modern democracy”.

I rather like Corbyn’s attitude re: the “monarchy”, myself.

Fine but surely it is better to get in power and look to change things?

Corbyn always reminds me of the idealist graduate who comes into a company throws a few ideas around some of which may be good, but they do so in such an annoying way that everyone just ignores them.

the war starts by cutting payments to the lowest and tax breaks for the wealthy via inheritance tax.

Christ you lefties are hard to convince