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The training mega thread
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13thfloormonkFull Member
Watched a Dylan Johnson vid on ‘common mistakes everyone makes’.
Turns out I’m extremely guilty of doing recovery rides wrong, I’ll sit at the top of zone 2 thinking I’m getting the most benefit out of an easy ride by going as hard as is technically allowed, oops 😳
Tried to stay well within Zone 1 today, but since I was desperate to get outdoors it meant staying in zone 1 whilst wrapped in waterproofs and winter gear and chewing through a headwind. Needless to say the average speed was closer to one of my weekend gravel rides than a road bike ride 😁
Garry_LagerFull Member@mark88 No star means you were too far off the target power for the whole interval, so sounds like what you say – big sprint followed by an uneven effort. What turbo do you have, as erg mode will make this issue go away? It is superb for big flat intervals, although I’m less keen on it myself for anything with a big sprint peak.
I banked a couple of weeks sweetspot but have come juddering to a halt – lungs not happy on harder efforts, feel inflamed. Taken it completely easy for a week and will slowly work my way back up.
Had something similar before Christmas and was given a blue inhaler to try – didn’t feel like it did anything. Anyone have asthma here – how many toots do you typically give it? I was only doing one or two, but maybe a Froome-like massive bong hit is the order of the day?whitestoneFree MemberI’d assume that the star means you were within a percentage of the target power – it’s nigh on impossible to actually pedal at exactly the target power with no deviation whatsoever. It might be that it’s average power across the interval or staying within a band. You probably need to analyse “successful” and “other” interval data in a suitable program/web site to determine what is being rewarded.
Generally if you are within a percentage point or two of the target you’ll be fine, i.e. if the interval asks for 120% and you average 118% then there’s little difference in the actual training effect. It’s a bit like going to the shops in a Zafira as opposed to a Ferrari, you’ll still get there, just not as quickly. Supposedly VO2max is 120% above FTP but for some people it may be 115% and for some it may be 125% so there’s a bit of work needed on your behalf to find the best value.
Rest intervals are usually in the 40-50% range but it doesn’t really matter what the actual effort is, it’s just something for you to get your breath back so if pedalling at 80rpm means you are at 45% rather than 40% it’s no big deal.
You don’t say (or it’s in an older post) what sort of turbo you are using. I’m on an old dumb wheel-on turbo and coming off hard efforts into a rest interval usually means dropping from big to small chainring and there’s a moment of zero power as my pedalling takes a moment or two to actually catch up with the inertia of the rear wheel. Also with a dumb trainer it takes a bit of practice to find the correct resistance and gearing for a given workout and the levels within it.
13thfloormonkFull MemberAlso with a dumb trainer it takes a bit of practice to find the correct resistance and gearing for a given workout and the levels within it.
My dumb turbo would basically have me on a singlespeed! I’m pretty much using the same rear sprocket for all intervals, it’s just the cadence that changes slightly e.g. threshold intervals are 95-96RPM and sweetspot is 85-90RPM.
Changing gear just means silly cadences…
whitestoneFree MemberEh? On a dumb turbo you’d have to spin twice as quickly for the sprints as for the rests unless you manually changed the resistance or the gearing.
robbo1234bikingFull MemberThe stars on Zwift workouts are a bit misleading. On a rest interval I would get one because I stand up for a few seconds which just causes a brief power spike in erg mode. As long as you feel you are getting the work done in the right sections then don’t worry about the stars.
@garry_lager my wife has asthma and it gets worse over winter with the damp weather but it normally takes a couple of days of consistent inhaler use if she forgets for a bit to really have an impact.mark88Full Member@garry_lager Cold/damp weather makes my asthma far worse. Vicks rub on the chest before training (inspired by Patrick Viera) to minimise the impact of the cold helps. I have a purple inhalor I take twice daily which manages my asthma to the point I rarely need the blue one anymore.
I’m using a dumb turbo – I’m happy I followed the session pretty well, was just making sure I wasn’t missing something with the stars. Obviously can’t expect to jump from recovery to max sprint and back down again without any lag or discrepency.
13thfloormonkFull MemberEh? On a dumb turbo you’d have to spin twice as quickly for the sprints as for the rests unless you manually changed the resistance or the gearing.
It’s maybe a consequence of the workouts I’m doing right now which all hover close to threshold, I think the hardest intervals I’ve done recently are 130% FTP.
Also it’s a fluid turbo so resistance increases with speed, I guess the power curve just means that a small change in cadence means a proportionally bigger change in resistance, so the difference between 90RPM and 95RPM is quite significant, even in the same gear.
simsterFull MemberI did most of my early zwift training on a dumb trainer, (now got a smart one). I found it easier to maintain consistent power on the dumb trainer than the smart one in erg mode. @13thfloormonk like you said – a gear change or two and a bit spinning is all you need.
whitestoneFree MemberAh! Fluid turbos are massively non-linear in their response. I suppose you just get used to the peculiarities of whatever you are using. Mine’s a magnetic resistance model and it’s a matter of finding the right setting to allow the full power range of the workouts (roughly 30% – 200% FTP) such that I don’t go off either end of the cassette.
13thfloormonkFull MemberAh! Fluid turbos are massively non-linear in their response. I suppose you just get used to the peculiarities of whatever you are using.
Yeah, it would be fine but I’m just envisaging one hugely worn out and deformed sprocket meaning I need to bin a whole cassette… need to go research if you can buy just the middle cluster of an Ultegra cassette, I know you can for Dura-Ace
longdogFree MemberFor zwift and the stars you need to keep reasonably withing the OK range of power. If you get too many increase the power or reduce the power notifications you’ll not get the star, but it’s pretty generous. Using erg mode I’ll often swing one way or the other at the start or end of intervals due to cadence and its rare to lose one, but I have lost them for massively over powering on sprints when I didn’t realise that their ‘sprint’ wasn’t really calling for an all out sprint.
As others have said I’d not worry about it, just try to do what you’re set as close as possible, but I know it can be annoying when you feel you did!
whitestoneFree MemberHmm, learnt today that doing two intense VO2max workouts on successive days isn’t a good idea! Yesterday’s had an IF of 0.96, i.e. 96% of my hour power over an hour’s workout, today’s was 0.93. Legs were pretty cooked after the warmup efforts and couldn’t hold the power during the first interval so no real point in continuing.
Still I got my best ever minute power 👍
longdogFree MemberMe too. I’ve just done 3 days in a row; 1st Day threshold intervals, 2nd day easy but 1 minute cadence spin ups, 3rd day (last night) Vo2 intervals.
I’m cooked and my achy breaky heart has been having little words with me. Day off today, and then largely a sweetspot hour tomorrow and 2.5hr Z2 Saturday with probably Sunday off.
Just contemplating a sunset dip in the sea to see if it aids the inflammation in my legs!
longdogFree MemberJust back from 10mins in the north atlantic and yep, my legs feel better, the seas substitutes on pain for another just now 😂 Jeez it was cold.
13thfloormonkFull MemberI’m following the Dylan Johnson 10hr routine so was 3×10 thresholds Tuesday, 3×15 sweetspots Wednesday, 1.5hr Z1 this morning.
Feeling good for it, but Saturday’s over-under session will be the next test…
longdogFree Member13thfloormonk thats pretty much what I was thinking to do once I’ve finished the zwift gravel grinder program.
Next week is a taper week before the ‘final event’, so I’ll probably do that as my recovery week before start a programme like yours.13thfloormonkFull Member13thfloormonk thats pretty much what I was thinking to do once I’ve finished the zwift gravel grinder program.
It’s working well so far and I can move most of the sessions outdoors as soon as the weather improves a little bit, sweetspots and recovery rides are easy to do outdoors and the Saturday session could easily be some hill repeats followed by and easy spin home (although have sold Satruday rides to my wife as ‘just one hour’ so suspect they’ll end up on the turbo.
Sundays are always outdoor if I can help it, 3-4 hours ‘easy’ but allowing for dicking around etc. Ideal for exploring local gravel tracks and moving to longer road rides when weather improves.
longdogFree MemberAnyone watched Dylan’s new video re gravel training? https://youtu.be/-BtK77NXRik
Mon: off, Tue;1hr HIIT, wed: 1hr z2, thu:1hr z2, Fri off or accessory exercises, Sat; 2.45hr z2 with 4/5 high SS intervals, Sunday: z2
Had a look at his 3 gg plans too with 6-8,10-12, and 15-16 hour weeks including off the bike work. They have sample weeks you can check out.
Not feeling the urge to spend $80 on one, but the principles seem good and I contrast to TRs world of sweet spot for ever
whitestoneFree MemberI was just starting to watch it when you posted. Basically aim for a polarised or pyramidal intensity distribution along with some race specific work.
It’s pretty much what I’m doing at the moment following TR’s 3 session per week plans plus weekend rides, just checked – it’s two months since I’ve done a sweet spot workout, pretty much everything since then has been endurance, threshold or VO2max and will continue like that to the end of the plan. My weekend rides are somewhat freeform but with some underlying aim such as keep HR within zone which usually means my power is steady within some power zone.
longdogFree MemberYeh he seemed to be favouring the pyramidal approach more?
Re TR I continue to see comments that their programs are too much SS and above for people, who tried them and ditched them, including some comment below his video. Obviously you’re finding it works well for you though.
Just got Mark Beaumont’s new book, Endurance, as a prezzie off my wife. Not sure what it will add to his podcasts which I’ve been enjoying, and pretty sure there’s no actual training plan in it, more concepts, but we’ll see…
whitestoneFree MemberI got the MB book for my wife, I’ll be reading it as well!
Without discussing TR’s plans too much (there’s already a massive thread for those and the workouts) most of the SS workouts are in the higher volume plans but with just one exception when I did a mid-volume Build plan I’ve always done the low-volume plans which are just 3 sessions a week. Thus by nature of there being a “minimum effective dose” or MED in order to progress those sessions are more intense.
Sweet Spot (i.e. around the high tempo, low threshold area or Z3/4) workouts are meant to be tough but recoverable in that you should be able to do them day after day. The downside is that you aren’t really stressing any other system so at some point you have to move away from that middle ground, put in hours at Z2/endurance and pep that up with interval work.
Training’s a bit of a one-shot oddity: if you’ve never trained then any structured training will show improvements but you can’t say if following a different regimen would have been quicker, less stressful or whatever since you can’t rewind the clock back to your untrained state. Similarly if you’ve trained before or regularly then all that you can state about any training plan different to one that you are following is that it will “shock” your system so you’ll see gains whilst your body adjusts. Once you’ve trained a while you know what level of training stress you can handle, how much recovery you need, etc.
This is really where the “one size fits all” training plans from whoever fall down so you either have to build your own or get a coach. So for <cough>mature</cough> athletes an 8 or 9 day week might work better or a 2:1 work/recovery week ratio. Also after a while you know where your own weak spots are so can sub workouts to work on those.
longdogFree MemberCheers, Yeh well I’ll be writing mine tonight I think to start on Tuesday and it will be 2:1 given my poor recovery issues and… age 🤪
13thfloormonkFull MemberNice! Another over-under session today.
I mentioned a few posts above that I’ve still not successfully actually completed an FTP test other than my first one which felt too easy (as in, I had something left at end). Either way, I’ve assumed my FTP is 263W and based all my training zones on that, even though I’ve not actually proven it by way of a test. Seems silly, but the actual workouts seem perfect (usually just struggling in last couple of sets) and don’t seem to be suffering from burnout or overtraining after approx 8 weeks using these zones.
Aaaaaanyway, long story short, I’m doing 3 sets of 4 over-unders, 1 minute @ 130% FTP followed by 2 minutes @ 98%, but which usually seems to drift to just a smidge over FTP. I can complete but the 20-30seconds after an over get a bit ropey by the end.
I effectively end up doing 3x12minute intervals at FTP or above, or at an average of approx 106% FTP.
Makes me wonder if I’m using too low an FTP? But then why can’t I ride for 20 minutes at that FTP?
Only thing I’m thinking is that the 20 minute test I’m doing incorporates a 5 minute effort before the test to reduce the anaerobic contribution to the FTP test, so perhaps I should ditch that in order to finally actually complete a 20 minute test, even if it means the FTP it gives me is higher than it should be.
Alternative is always doing a 5 minute effort before each workout for consistency, don’t think I fancy that…
longdogFree Member106% average power is probably just below 10TT pace, but you’re ‘only’ doing 12 minutes x 3, with a bit of rest between, where as a 10TT is probably two of them with no rest, or a bit more than two for me on our local sporting course 😂
I’d expect that you’re probably still getting that anaerobic help that the 5 min pre-exhaust is trying to reduce in the 20min test and obviously some recovery between sets so it’s a manageable effort despite the numbers.
If you want an FTP number you need to do the proper protocol or the number will definitely be wrong, that’s why the protocols for shorter test are as they are. The other option is the hour of power/pain 😢
I guess regardless of FTP the question is what are you trying to address/improve? Do you need to know your FTP precisely for your goals or is close good enough for what you want to do to hit the physiological levels you intend to?
For me it’s aerobic and muscular endurance I’m interested in more than top end power for endurance rides, as I’m trying to avoid high heart rate and too much intensity, and on a actual trip or audax I’d be avoiding any threshold work as much as possible. Obviously having a higher threshold/FTP massively helps, but I’m not sure I need to worry about exactly what it is as long as I know what it feels like (or my hr/breathing is) at Z2 or threshold. I don’t have power readings other than on the turbo.
whitestoneFree Member1 minute @ 130% FTP followed by 2 minutes @ 98%
Is that right or a typo? 130% seems very high, into anaerobic sprint territory. 60 seconds at that level would have me wanting to be at 80% or lower for the valleys! 110% is probably high enough.
I’ve been doing outdoor workouts and working to RPE rather than Power/HR/breathing but obviously HR & breathing are significant factors in RPE. Obviously you need to know how any given RPE relates to specific levels of effort like threshold, etc. I have a good feel for what upper level Z2 (power) and threshold feel like without needing any direct monitoring. Doesn’t really matter if I’m doing 70% or 75%.
13thfloormonkFull MemberIs that right or a typo? 130% seems very high, into anaerobic sprint territory. 60 seconds at that level would have me wanting to be at 80% or lower for the valleys! 110% is probably high enough.
D’oh! Not a typo, but I did my maths wrong, the perils of having to convert from speed to power using a spreadsheet power formula… Works out as 120%, which I agree still seems high for the purpose of the workout.
I’ll stick with it, as longdog alludes to, I don’t actually care what the FTP number is, so long as it puts me in the right zones for effective workouts. Today’s workout was tough but I completed it (just, felt a tiny bit sick as I stepped off which is a first!) so am assuming I’m in the right zone.
My last ‘threshold’ workout was 3x10min @ 108% FTP, which again seems high for that sort of workout which I understand should be up to 100% FTP (albeit for up to 4x15min if Dylan Johnson is anything to go by!).
I think I need to test my FTP properly…
Edit: Watching (yet another) Dylan Johnson video, I’m beginning to suspect I’m more of an anaerobic rider, which is why shorter workouts seem to give me favourable results. I think I need to focus on increasing duration rather than intensity for now…
longdogFree Member13thfloormonk I’m the same, as I said back near the start when I’ve done ramp tests my ftp from them has come back too high as I seem quite good at suffering through short hard efforts. But it doesn’t suit the riding I want to do, or should be doing now.
Started sketching out my training plan on a spreadsheet and building workouts in zwift,but then my son wanted the PV to playing online D&D with his mates. Grrrrr… Had to let him socialise the it way he can just now.
Anyway zwift custom workout builder is good and easy to use, the bonus is it gives you TSS for each workout, so easy to build in progression over the sessions due to both intensity and duration. I wish you could copy and paste and duplicate in it though rather than having to start each workout from scratch.
robbo1234bikingFull Member@longdog use Zwift workout editor.
You can use basic text so you can write all the workout with easy commands such as:
Steady 20m 90%
For a 20 min block at 90% of ftp.
And it will build it for you. Makes copying and pasting a lot easier. Download the workouts onto tour pc. Put them in your workout folder and boot up Zwift and they are all there ready to go.
longdogFree Member@robbo1234biking ah great thanks I’d forgotten about that sort of thing! I must have used that in the past looking at some of my old custom workouts on there.
at some point I must have also figured out how to import best bike split routes in too, as I had the local 10 & 25tt and some of my other regular routes in there as workouts per best bike splits power and durationrecommendations! No idea now how I did it,but I did !😂
10Full MemberI’m trying to figure out the best time to take an FTP test while on a rest week. I have a sweet-spot scheduled for Thursday and a light Z2 on Wednesday.
I’m thinking that I will do the FTP test in place of the SS and keep the Z2 as a little warm up. What do you guys think? Should I do that, not do the Z2 at all and just the FTP on Thurs. FTP on Wed and SS on Thurs? Ooh the permutations!
longdogFree MemberI guess one question would be how long is the z2? 1 hour or 3, though you do say light.
I think I’d probably do the FTP instead of the z2 as then you can use it to set your SS level. Alternatively if you’re feeling fresh do it tonight and use it to set all your zones including the z2.
I start my new block tonight, first session is vo2 HIIT 🤔😭
mogrimFull MemberI’m thinking that I will do the FTP test in place of the SS and keep the Z2 as a little warm up.
Sounds about right – maybe even sprinkle in a couple of 15s sprints into that Z2 workout, just to wake your legs up.
13thfloormonkFull MemberI’d have done the FTP first, unless you’ve been off the bike for a few days and need to spin the legs first?
Everything I’ve read says FTP when fresh and rested.
whitestoneFree MemberDoing a SS workout in a rest/recovery week? All the workouts should be Z2 max.
Also depends on what testing protocol you are using – 20min, 8min, Ramp Test, 4DP? They all have different stress/fatigue levels. You should also always be consistent in how you approach a test, doing a warmup workout one time but not the next will affect the results. Record what you did in the notes for the workout then you know what to do next time.
I’d leave the test until the start of next week otherwise you aren’t getting the benefits of the rest/recovery week. Training is as much about structure and consistency as actually doing the prescribed work. Flexibility does come into it but only if circumstances dictate: illness; injury; etc.
mogrimFull MemberEverything I’ve read says FTP when fresh and rested.
Definitely, but a Z2 workout the day before shouldn’t go against that, assuming we’re not talking a 3hr Z2 workout of course!
You can also go in too rested – most training plans I’ve seen recommend a short outing with a few high intensity efforts the day before a race, for example.
13thfloormonkFull MemberYou can also go in too rested – most training plans I’ve seen recommend a short outing with a few high intensity efforts the day before a race, for example.
Yeah I’ve been given this advice as well, e.g. as part of your taper for a CX race you actually want to do some hard efforts the day before to get some endorphins in your legs!
Maybe that’s why my FTP tests keep going so badly…
whitestoneFree Member@mogrim – workouts like that tend to be part of a taper week where you reduce volume and load but keep or even increase intensity. If I look at my plan the penultimate weeks have a TSS of around 300 with 90min workouts with mostly threshold intervals. The last week has two hour long workouts of VO2max sprints but only a total of 130 TSS.
It does depend on what @10 is currently doing: currently there’s no indication as to why they wish to do an FTP test – new kit? If they are on a plan then the next test will be part of that plan (or should be). More info please!
10Full MemberI’m following the TCTP which doesn’t call for a test during the program. However, I’m not happy with how the test I took went before I started. The workouts seem to be a little easy. I want to double check so I don’t waste time on the program at the wrong level.
whitestoneFree MemberNot sure what TCTP is, a Zwift plan?, but if you feel your FTP is about right you should be able to manually tweak it to put you in the right ball park. Even with testing I’ll adjust my FTP as necessary to get the most out of the workouts.
After a while you get to know what particular levels should feel like. Also with a lot of starter plans the workouts aren’t intended to be really stressful and many people think they should add more, change the intensity, etc. I’d still leave this week as a recovery week, that’s what it’s for.
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