Viewing 40 posts - 121 through 160 (of 361 total)
  • The training mega thread
  • Premier Icon Garry_Lager
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    @13thfloormonk – Rd 3 of Cyclocross national trophy 21 / 22 is set for Falkirk. Epic power build starts now?

    https://nationaltrophywestmorland.ukcyclocross.co.uk/2021/01/19/october-2021-were-back/?fbclid=IwAR3ri4fHgd3i2ni9X-NfUkVQBF3blEap88QumdGnHTByXIZzAr5mGIAYdno

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Niiiiice!

    Return from Pyrenees end of July all skinny and tanned, 1 month strength training, 6 weeks over-unders and 30/15s, 1 week taper, RESULTS 😀

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.

    Ive a reasonable idea, but it can’t hurt to read up.

    The old military adage was 1kg/man/day for food and fuel. That was for sustained campaigns and for keeping fully nourished. If you were out for say five days between resupply then you could get away with less if you accepted some fat and possibly muscle loss.

    Carbs and protein are roughly 4kcal/g, fat is 9kcal/g. With most “real” foods you will struggle to get over 5kcal/g so you can work out what sort of weight is required. Those figures assume the food is in edible state, i.e. not dehydrated – in that case you need to add the weight of the fuel to rehydrate. Some people go keto but like many things it has its negatives as well as its positives, i.e. it’s good for long, slow distance, not so for short hard efforts.

    Dehydrated foods: most will rehydrate with water at any temperature, it’s just quicker and more convenient with boiling water. Some dried foods do require hot/boiling water to initiate the process. Worth experimenting with rehydrating overnight with “cold” water. That might mean having your main meal as breakfast rather than at night.

    High fat foods: worth eating these at night since the body uses energy, and therefore warms up, to digest them. That means you feel warmer in your sleeping bag 👍

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Dehydrated foods: most will rehydrate with water at any temperature, it’s just quicker and more convenient with boiling water.

    Very true, I could stretch a small gas cannister much further once I realised you didn’t need to keep the pasta water boiling once you had added the pasta, just return it to the boil then turn off heat. Pasta cooked in virtually the same amount of time but I saved about 8 minutes gas use each time.

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    Well the Ramp Test today went …

    Not well 😧

    Bailed at 16m30. The break even point, i.e. the point at which you’d get your current FTP is 19m30. It’s a 12% decrease! Not too sure why – maybe the walling I did on Monday was still in my legs.

    Going to keep my current FTP as the workouts feel “right” in intensity.

    Premier Icon longdog
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    I guess sometimes you just have a bad day, slept bad, are fatigued,fueled bad, got c19. But at least if your current work outs seem the right level for you that’s something.

    Premier Icon piemonster
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    I did a Ramp Test on Tuesday, neither feeling fresh nor really in the mood (I’m not really used to ‘undertake training session x on day y’)

    It also didn’t go well, I guess Trainerroad kinda assume some kind of freshness on day 1 of a training plan rather than being 3 months into progressively increased loads.

    The other part being not having done that style of workout for some time I wasn’t really tuned in to the experience. I certainly shouldn’t have been fresh enough afterwards to take the dog out for an (admittedly easy paced) 90 minute run.

    Might take me a while to tune into staring at graphs as opposed to pedalling like hell to bridge a gap or not get dropped in Zwift.

    Premier Icon piemonster
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    Cheers for the video link @YoKaiser

    Some quite informative videos on that channel. I think with the volumes I’m aiming for and my experiences with running do lead me towards Polarised rather than Sweet Spot, I’ve tried a Sweet Spot with running in the past, although I didn’t realise at the time, and it always resulted in burning out. What did work was lots of easy runs with less frequent fast runs.

    That said, I could just be going with what I know and not because it’s right. The total duration will be the same as those running days, and running breaks you down a lot quicker than cycling.

    Premier Icon piemonster
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    Cheers for the responses on the food front as well.

    Premier Icon longdog
    Free Member

    @piemonster I’m not a runner, knee replacement.saw to that, but from what I understand SS and running aren’t a good thing at all.

    SS is manageable for cycling as there isn’t the shock and load on your body of faster running. It’s just so much harder and unsustainable with running and you’ll get injured or burn out sooner rather than later. Polarised is best for running.

    With cycling you will get the overall fatigue if your volume and intensity is too high, but with running body parts will break. There’s a recent thread on Slowtwitch triathlon forum about it. Probably older ones too.

    Premier Icon mogrim
    Full Member

    Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months

    Not riding, but there’s loads of info out there about nutrition for the Marathon des Sables, which is a multiday self-supported desert race. Here’s a commercial link I found from a quick Google, there are loads more. It’s got an interesting embedded Youtube video:

    https://tentmeals.co.uk/blogs/news/food-for-the-marathon-des-sables

    Premier Icon shortbread_fanylion
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    Piemonster – yes, the TR ramp test does assume you’re rested and fresh. I’d repeat it if I were you.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    20 minute FTP test for me on Saturday. Although if my previous attempts are anything to go by I might need another couple of attempts to get the pacing right so I could be doing it again on Tuesday…

    Am hoping to be well rested and am going to do it at 4pm which seems to be my ‘golden hour’ for training (based on one session last week which I smashed 🙂 ). Will also be better fueled than the first time I did it.

    Could be a tough next training block if it all goes well! Although equally it could be a bit depressing if I don’t see any gains…

    On a side note, I’ve learned one of the drawbacks of using virtual power off a spreadsheet – bad maths! For my over-unders I was supposed to be doing 95% FTP for the unders, turns out I had been doing 105% FTP instead, turning it into a sort of ‘over-over’ session. Explains why I’d never really completed a session to my satisfaction…

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    I’m not very good with VO2max work so have decided to add an extra VO2max workout each week. I’m on that part of the plan where VO2max is ramping up anyway but I’d skipped earlier workouts as they landed during the Xmas/NY period.

    There’s a sub-group on TrainerRoad for VO2 work and there’s a handful of custom workouts that one them has created and shared. Basically they are hard start intervals: hit 150% of FTP then over 90 seconds ramp down to 110% and then complete the interval at that level. There’s a twist – each succeeding interval drops the maximum effort by 3-5% each time, so 145%, 140%, etc. down to 130% or so. The idea being that each interval is slightly easier to compensate for your increased fatigue.

    The target for each workout is to spend as much time as possible above 90% of your MHR.

    So tonight was my first attempt at one of these. I thought about doing the 4x5min (that’s 90s of the descending ramp then 3m30s at 110%) but settled on 6x3min. Very much a learning curve, ended up with 3 1/2mins in the target HR zone so I need to work on several things, notably getting my HR to ramp up quicker. Even so I got some power PRs for times in the 60-90 seconds range.

    https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobw/rides/100606688-6×3-hard-start-vo2max

    I’m going to stick with this particular workout firstly until I can complete it (!) and then improve my time in zone.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Sounds like an interesting workout!

    I met my nemesis today, 1hr Z2 indoors! Succesfully completed on rollers by dint of dicking around with cadence, position and occasional bursts of 180RPM cadence (sort of following the GCN Sweetspot Workout with 10s bursts every 5 minutes just to keep legs interested).

    Premier Icon schmiken
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    Might take me a while to tune into staring at graphs as opposed to pedalling like hell to bridge a gap or not get dropped in Zwift.

    I run Zwift concurrently with TR, which lowers RPE. I don’t race but can tick off routes and get badges while I’m training. A smart trainer means I can just let the turbo take care of resistance and just pedal along up Ventoux, or AddZ or Central Park…

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Well the Ramp Test today went …

    Not well 😧

    Bailed at 16m30.

    You did better than me, I only managed 15min of my 20min FTP test today, riding to an FTP only very slightly (9W) higher than I’ve been setting my training zones to ☹

    I think it’s telling that I can do short intervals at a relatively high intensity (compared to my FTP) but not long intervals e.g. 4×5 minute thresholds, I’m hoping this goes some way to explaining why I’ve never managed a full 20 minute test!

    Also I was hungover today, but only very slightly 😉

    Think I’ll focus on longer interval workouts for the next 5-6 weeks then try again.

    Premier Icon speedstar
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    Can I just reiterate again the benefit of doing Zwift races in relation to ftp. It seems to help if it’s people you actually know you are racing and you genuinely can’t deal with them being smug having beat you. Zwift reckons I should increase my ftp by 23 watts after yesterday 😀 I am being conservative and only going with 15 as I may not be able to recreate this power in any other scenario…

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    Obviously that’s psychology at work – male competitive instinct and all that. Power outputs in races, particularly criterium like races, is high, pretty much a HIIT workout but with the “recoveries” at threshold. The power profiles of race simulation workouts are just insane: 125-145% efforts separated by just 5s at 80% as “rest”, similar on/off efforts then continuing for four minutes! That’s from a cyclocross simulation BTW.

    I don’t think I’d have the mental fortitude to undertake such a workout “on my own” so Zwift, etc. would be more than useful in that scenario.

    @13thfloormonk – I use intervals.icu, it pulls workouts/rides from Strava and Garmin Connect and is a sort of poor man’s WKO. (Currently free though he has started asking for donations as he’s moved to new servers and is shifting more data) One of the analysis screens shows your power curve along with idealised curves and age adjusted ones so you can see where you need to work on your weak points.

    Supra-threshold intervals are hard, particularly those just above FTP since the assumption is that you should be able to do reasonably long durations.

    I’ve been doing more investigation in to VO2max workouts – this blog is interesting https://sparecycles.blog/ – I think my FTP is a higher percentage of my MAP/VO2max level than the “standard” 75% so I don’t have the room to grow. Thus I need to raise VO2max before my FTP can rise. Perhaps another way of saying I’ve plateaued. The only problem is that doing these workouts causes the furniture in the house to shake! I need to do them when my wife’s not in.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    I don’t think I’d have the mental fortitude to undertake such a workout “on my own” so Zwift, etc. would be more than useful in that scenario.

    Exactly this for me. My default assumption is that Zwift races are sort of ‘junk’ training, e.g. not specific enough, or too hard and requiring too much recovery, compared with structured intervals.

    But on the flipside, if I could be bothered buying all the gear and setting up a Zwift cave, I could also imagine I’d make big gains quickly if I limited myself to two races a week, I think my ability to push myself in a non-competitive scenario is pretty feeble…

    I think my FTP is a higher percentage of my MAP/VO2max level than the “standard” 75% so I don’t have the room to grow.

    I think I might be the opposite which surprises me, I never thought I was a ‘short burst’ type. I wonder if that reflects my physiology which I *think* is relatively heavy for not very much body fat.

    I was doing 30/15s at 130% of my presumed FTP of 263W, but struggle to do 103% for 10 minutes. Looking at it like that perhaps it’s no surprise, but that 103% was hoping/assuming I’d made some improvement on my FTP, so in reality would have been lower still.

    Hopefully this means room to grow! Time for a month or more of longer intervals, which will segue quite nicely into getting back outside to take the training back on to real hills come March hopefully.

    Premier Icon john_l
    Free Member

    I think it’s telling that I can do short intervals at a relatively high intensity (compared to my FTP) but not long intervals e.g. 4×5 minute thresholds, I’m hoping this goes some way to explaining why I’ve never managed a full 20 minute test!

    Does it not just mean that you’ve overestimated your FTP and that you need to re-test at a pace at which you CAN complete the full 20 mins?

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Does it not just mean that you’ve overestimated your FTP and that you need to re-test at a pace at which you CAN complete the full 20 mins?

    Yep, pretty much 😎

    On the flipside though, my imagined/never actually proven FTP seems to work to set training zones (e.g. I can ‘just’ complete workouts based around this FTP) so I’ll keep using it for now.

    Premier Icon mark88
    Free Member

    I’m on the lookout for some pointers please. I’m hoping to race some enduros this year but struggling for bike time at the moment so just bought a turbo.

    I’ve set myself a goal date of Ard Dales (fingers crossed), so gives me 15 weeks from 1 Feb to lose a few KG and get myself ready to battle for mid pack.

    I’ve always gone to the gym and rode lots of MTB, but never “trained” so a bit lost as to where to begin. Zwift’s beginner FTP builder is 4 or 5 hour long sessions a week which is more than I would like.

    Fortunately I’ve got enough weights to stay on top of the gym stuff at home. I had planned on doing something along the lines of the below, leaving me enough time to add in more MTB when conditions allow:

    – 2 turbo
    – 2 gym sessions
    – 1 MTB ride

    What sort of turbo sessions should I be looking at?

    Premier Icon Garry_Lager
    Full Member

    The TR gravity plan has some intense intervals, very demanding, suggesting that top end work is definitely the order of the day for enduro. But they are sitting in a bigger structure where you build up the strength to take that training load, don’t think it would be wise just wading in to VO2 max stuff straight away.

    You can do some stuff on that training schedule though, definitely. If you’ve never trained I’d prob just get on a zwift program and just choose the two you want to do that week. The programs are kinda bad if you’re experienced but starting out anything vaguely sensible will give you gains.

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    Pretty much any training will show improvements but you don’t say what your current strengths/weaknesses are.

    Not sure what you class as “long”, most workouts from whatever programme tend to be in the 60-90minute range as you’ll need warm up and cool down periods to bookmark the actual work. There’s also a minimum effective dose, basically you need to do a minimum to see improvements, again without knowing your current status it’s hard to say what that it.

    Protocols like HIIT give quick gains but are difficult to sustain in the long term – they often feature as a short block in longer term plans to shake things up.

    I’d drop one gym session, you probably just want to be in maintenance mode this close to the event, trying to push (sorry) things will potentially impact other parts of your training. Turbo wise you’ve got three general classes: endurance; threshold & anaerobic. So it really depends on what you want to work on. If you are good with sprints, go more for threshold and endurance, if you are good with endurance (i.e. long steady plodding) then look at the other two, etc

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Fortunately I’ve got enough weights to stay on top of the gym stuff at home. I had planned on doing something along the lines of the below, leaving me enough time to add in more MTB when conditions allow:

    The Dylan Johnson videos are a good starter, the ‘Fit in 10hrs a week’ video helped me reorganise my training week into:

    Monday – off

    Tuesday – hardest turbo session, I’m currently doing 3x10min threshold

    Wednesday – Tempo or Sweetspot session, this could be done outdoors I guess if you can find 2x20minute sections (I’ve got two long gravel sections that fit the bill quite nicely although they are rolling so will need some attention to stay in zone)

    Thursday – 2hr endurance e.g. spinning the legs, easy.

    Friday – off

    Saturday – another hard session, not as hard as Tuesday, make this another turbo session? I’m debating making this an over-under session or another threshold session.

    Sunday – as long an ‘easy’ ride as you can, 4-5hrs.

    I guess maybe you could make Wednesday a gym day?

    Premier Icon piemonster
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    Those Dylan Johnson videos really are helpful.  I do hope he’s not talking about of his **** as I’ve partly structured my week from his stuff.

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    The DJ videos are reasonably uncontentious – he does a decent job of analysing the various and often conflicting studies about various training protocols. Probably the polarised vs Sweet Spot video has raised most chat.

    He works for or is associated with CTS which is the coaching company set up by Chris Carmichael who wrote The Time Crunched Cyclist. I’m assuming he also gets some feedback from there as well so his analysis won’t be too far off.

    Premier Icon piemonster
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    I’m still struggling to settle on a ‘default’ training week that doesn’t involve training 7 days a week.

    If I was just looking at biking, or even just biking and running. And definitely not looking at training for a 300km solo MTB ITT along with Fell Running, Swimming and Rowing I suspect its be pretty simple.

    How daft would it be to be active 7 days a week (assuming fresh and not ****) but with Monday and Friday as no legs days. So Mon/Fri would be either weights/Swimming/fixed seat rowing. Those options can all be taken at active recovery effort levels if needed, the rowing can be as hard or as easy as I want, it’s not the skinny max effort style you see in the Olympics that’s for sure. Weights can also be adjusted if needed to focus on control and range/stretching as suitable for condition.

    Edit, Trainerroad so far is looking like money well spent.

    Premier Icon longdog
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    Piemonster, two no legs days sounds like a sensible plan, but don’t forget it’s still overall stress on your CNS that need recovery, not just the actual directly involved muscles.

    I guess many triathletes do two a days of different modalities to enable proper ‘off days’ and getting the ‘full body’ done in one day of stress?

    Also if you’re doing such an overall volume with different modes of exercise, with work, family, life etc you’ll need to make a fair bit of that easy volume maybe in a polarised way for the same reason. And sleep and rest as training priority too.

    I have various health limits so that even an hour or two walking on my off the bike days is enough for them not to be off days for my legs.

    Premier Icon longdog
    Free Member

    Oh, meant to say that hard day, medium day, easy day, off day, cycle is something I was looking at the other day for when I finish my current zwift gravel grinder plan and seems to be a cycle that the Fascat coaching plans work with. So threshold, tempo, z2 then off, but for me probably sweet spot, tempo, z2.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Free Member

    What is the research/thoughts on active recovery currently?

    I am going through a fairly intense period of training (more general fitness than cycling specific) which I have scheduled 2 days a week as rest/active recovery, today being 1 of those days. I have done a couple of decent gym sessions and a sweet spot ride on the trainer in the past 3 days and can feel it in my legs, and also feel a bit depleted generally from it.

    I feel like my muscles would benefit from a gentle spin to flush some blood through, but my “health battery” (I can’t think of better terminology at the moment) could do with a full rest and recharge.

    Premier Icon longdog
    Free Member

    Seems people either feel benefit from active recovery, which is something like a 30mins below 50% ftp spin, or just need rest with it being a very personal choice. From what I remember it’s a case of it you feel it helps great, if not rest.

    Light stretching and mobilisation is always good.

    Premier Icon mogrim
    Full Member

    What is the research/thoughts on active recovery currently?

    Personally I love it, but it’s surprisingly hard to do in practice – outdoors it’s very easy for your recovery ride to turn into junk miles with lots of lowish pace miles, and a few higher intensity bits when you get bored. The lowish speed miles aren’t really quite low enough, and the harder bits are just enough to tire you without any real training benefit.

    If you are planning on doing some it’s a lot easier on a turbo in ERG mode where you can guarantee the pace. Aim for 40-45% FTP, 90rpm cadence, and spin along to Spotify or Netflix for 45-60min.

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Bugger, very succesful first attempt at some Dylan Johnson FTP type intervals on Tuesday (aimed for 3x8min @ FTP and managed 8,9,10 minute at just over FTP) so was happy with that.

    Next day I did 2×20 minute tempo/sweetspot outdoors, although it was probably more like 2x25min which was nice (basically trying to use the longest climbs in my area which by necessity end up very gradual).

    But for the last three days I’ve been limping around with a spasmed/seized up lower back. Am trying to figure out how I’ve done this, or if it’s just a shift to longer sustained efforts that has somehow brought it on.

    Ironically, I’ve been messing about with ‘spin’ style out of the saddle efforts where you take most of the weight off your hands and almost ‘hover’ over the bars whilst pedalling. I’m doing it as a workout for my glutes but am guessing it puts a lot of strain on low back, whether you feel it or not.

    I’d feel worse for missing a couple of workouts while it eases, but it’s looking increasingly like the event we’re training for won’t happen anyway, so.. meh I guess.

    Premier Icon longdog
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    High cadence standing pedaling? What’s the rationale behind that?

    Premier Icon 13thfloormonk
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    Not so much the cadence but the position, no weight on bars mean you have to push your weight back and use your glutes and core more, which I think is why they do it in spin classes as a sort of bonus core workout. It’s also a useful technique whilst trying stand and pedal on rollers!

    Premier Icon whitestone
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    Don’t try it on fixed unless you are a quick spinner!

    Premier Icon longdog
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    Cheers 13thfloormonk, I understand the benefit of standing pedaling the way you describe, it was more the reason for high cadence , though I guess high cadence makes it harder to balance. I’m turbo bound in a bit so might see what I can manage, though I’m not sure I want to risk breaking anything 😂

    Premier Icon mark88
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    The Dylan Johnson videos are good. I’ve watched a few as well as plenty of videos and podcasts from various DH and enduro coaches. I want to keep the gym days in, I think they’re just as important as the turbo sessions for the type of riding I do.

    they are sitting in a bigger structure where you build up the strength to take that training load, don’t think it would be wise just wading in to VO2 max stuff straight away.

    This makes sense – I’ve opted for the Zwift Beginner FTP builder. I’ll follow that as best as I can for 6 weeks.

    I did the first ‘Strength’ session last night. Newbie question – do the stars on Zwift matter? On most intervals I wasn’t getting the star which I presume means indicates successfully completing the interval. My assumption is on the sprints I was going too hard, and then taking too long to find correct power and cadence on the recovery?

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