Why go to BPW over local trails? Same reason I’d go to Whistler or Valnord etc. Its a great experience. I still ride 90% on my local trails. But if your not local with only the weekend to ride in I’d plump for a trail centre to get the maximum bang for my buck.

TBH I always pass Cwmcarn and go to Afan – it has better and more trails despite the extra drive. Food was better to!

nickc- you really need to read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote

😆 Edinburgh defence? I’ve read it again, and it still comes across as pretty snooty. You might want to think about how you express yourself. In fact, have a go…

As above, I get it if there’s nothing local to you.

I live in the Calder Valley, I’m willing to bet I’ve more and better riding than 90% of the population, I still go to TCs for a huge number of reasons.

It still isn’t. There’s no legal right to go and dig up land you don’t own. The land owner will however weigh up the various risks vs the resources required to remove it / maintain it / monitor them and act from there.

Landowners can give permission for people to build in areas – ie golfie – and are more likely to give that permission if theres a benefit to the local community – which there is in the Tweed Valley – but it will come with conditions.

I’ve ridden a few trail centres in my time but I’ve never had the desire to drive past several others to get to one specifically

Which ones, out of interest? Many are the same, but many are different. Cwmcarn and Afan are somewhat different experiences, Brechfa definitely is. How do you choose which big natural route in the mountains to ride? You don’t do the same one all the time do you?

😆 Edinburgh defence? I’ve read it again, and it still comes across as pretty snooty. You might want to think about how you express yourself.

Oh the irony how do you think that sentence comes across?

BPW rides nothing like Llandegla, which is nothing like Swinley, which is nothing like Afan… Sure they’re all riding, all riding trails up and down, but that’s as close to being related they are.

Cool. I’ve always thought the 7 Stanes were a bit “samey” and Laggan/Glenlivet not a whole lot different. BPW looks to be something else though and I can see why folk would head there at the expense of other centres nearby.

Oh the irony

it kinda was the point, honestly, I’m wasted here…

Sure they’re all riding, all riding trails up and down

Except Swinley 🙂

You must have missed Steyning…

I can assure you I’ve missed none of it. I was exaggerating to get the point across though – as said, it’s just somewhere different (Scotland). Wiv rocks.

BPW looks to be something else though

One word : Uplift.

too crap to get a defence named after it nick 😉

Sorry as I did totally miss that 😳

too crap to get a defence named after it nick

😆 😆

I don’t think I’m nearly big hittery enough…

Except Swinley

and yet.. eBikes 😆

(sorry, don’t wanna turn this into an eBikes thread!)

This year and last, some of the really good Singletrack away from the central area is grassing over for the first time I can recall in 17 years.

Visited a mate and rode some of the trails I used to night-ride with North Leeds and found the same. Trails that used to be kept open by mtbers have all but disappeared.

Turn up somewhere you’ve never been with a map you don’t really know how to use…

this is trails centres for me. As a student in Liverpool in the 90’s We could afford to spend every weekend exploring North Wales with an OS map, and whilst every trip was a bit of an ‘adventure’ we probably had a 50% strike rate in terms of decent riding. I’m now (relatively speaking) cash-rich and time-poor, if I’ve got a day or a weekend to ride MTB I don’t want to waste it hiking through waist-deep heather so it’s purpose-built trail centres or other well established routes.

Never done BPW though!

It’s interesting, because the advent of the ‘age of the trail centre’ is also producing a markedly different type of mtber.

They tend to be fast flow line riders capable of massive (by my terms of reference) jumps and drops far in excess of my own meagre trail skills, but they can’t ride chunder or variable surfaces well and seem to complain alot about the lack of flow on natural and unpredictable trails, and don’t really have much of a concept of what a technical climb really is.

This seems to translate to riders that are super fast on easy natural trails and a bit slow and whingy and dabby/crashy on anything where you have to make flow, rather than be fed it.

Figures really, given the different skills required.

Except Swinley

I’ll race ya round there 😉

+1 to Scienceofficer.

The interesting trails to me are those often described as “nadgery” (I presume that’s what you mean by “chunder”). They can be anything from flat to fairly steep downhill or even slightly uphill but there’s no line or flow as such and you have to pick your way along rather than simply blasting through. They definitely aren’t designed to be ridden let alone flow.

It still isn’t. There’s no legal right to go and dig up land you don’t own. The land owner will however weigh up the various risks vs the resources required to remove it / maintain it / monitor them and act from there.

Landowners can give permission for people to build in areas – ie golfie – and are more likely to give that permission if theres a benefit to the local community – which there is in the Tweed Valley – but it will come with conditions.

You can go into all the nuances and legalities if you want, it’s happening all over the country, not just in the Tweed valley.

I’m quite happy to go spend a day clearing out and ride a trail that I have no legal right to do, giving myself and others another place to add in to our local riding, if the local landowner pulls it down (they’d have to block it, as I don’t really tend to ‘build’ much as such, so there’s nothing really to pull down) then hey ho, I’m fine with that, I’ve only lost a days building.

You may have a different view, cool.

As I said, I can either bemoan the lack of local stuff, or I can do something about it.

This seems to translate to riders that are super fast on easy natural trails and a bit slow and whingy and dabby/crashy on anything where you have to make flow, rather than be fed it.

was on holibobs last week with a guiding co, and this came up…The fact that some folks are looking for “flow” rather than “tech”. I think it’s a combo of what people are riding and watching on You Tube. I’m not a fan of the super steep techy switch back (downhill right-handers are my kryptonite) you see on some Alpine and Pyrenean trails, but accept them as part of the deal, but the owner was expressing his frustration that folk where coming to him and 1. not really wanting to, or indeed be prepared to ride uphill for any extended period, 2. being frustrated that natural trails are not always 100% ridable, and 3. hurting themselves by riding faster than is really do-able on natural trails that aren’t designed solely for mountain bikes.

world’s turning fo’shure

Turn up somewhere you’ve never been with a map you don’t really know how to use, with some hints and tips on where you ought to head to, run the distinct possibility of getting lost, taking ages to get around a route and miss a bunch of the best riding, but finish with a sense of achievement of having fun finding and riding whatever you rode

Sounds good

or turn up to a venue that looks and feels a lot like all the other similar venues with convenient parking and facilities, ride trails that a good in virtually all weathers with way marking and guaranteed good riding.

Meh.

I’m mildly trolling, it’s true. I totally get why people enjoy facilities like BPW and trail centres, they just leave me cold.

I noticed a lot at FoD too.

Deffo this, I know it’s a lovely part of the World, but the FOD TC (I know it’s only a tiny part of the forest and there’s better riding blah blah blah) is doing a remarkable job attracting people – even with some eye watering parking rates these days 😉

I love going there, shitfire I live in Cardiff – any direct on the compass that does’t end up in the sea has great riding, but I still go over to FOD, even though the trails aren’t objectively as good as say Afan, but I like the place, especially in Summer, I don’t know what they’ve done to make it so, but it’s a nicer place to hang out that any of the South Wales TCs – or maybe I just like the burgers too much.

I was trying to think of an example of such a trail that people might have done.

The Llyn Cowlyd loop in North Wales is probably as good an example as any. It’s probably all rideable but possibly not by one person short of them being Danny MacAskill. There’s a few bits where you’ve a short steep climb where it’s just easier to get off and walk but if you sessioned them then you’d stand a chance. Generally it’s hard work and I can see that if you are used to trail centre “flow” then it would be very frustrating.

I’ve been to bpw once, in august. I could not believe how busy it was.

They tend to be fast flow line riders capable of massive (by my terms of reference) jumps and drops far in excess of my own meagre trail skills, but they can’t ride chunder or variable surfaces well and seem to complain alot about the lack of flow on natural and unpredictable trails, and don’t really have much of a concept of what a technical climb really is.

I resemble that accusation!

I’ve been riding for nearly 15 years now, in my natural element I’m pretty good – I can hammer down a nicely surfaced TC like I know what I’m doing – I’ve even been called “fast” a few times.

I started riding (for the second time) in 2004 I think, first we rode around the local nature park thing for a bit, then hopped in the Van down to Afan etc – missed the whole part of the learning curve that handled, mud, roots (other than carefully cleared, pointing in the right direction one) and even drops – honestly, I couldn’t ride a drop that I couldn’t roll until about 10 months ago.

I’ve never understood why someone would drive to Scotland and just ride the trail centres

I’ve got friends that live in The Lakes, and drive to Llangdegla to ride.. 🙄

I’ve not been to BPW, is it in an old quarry or ex industrial area or FC land? If it’s getting very busy then surely there’s a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

I think trail centres are a brilliant addition to the MTB menu, but they’re not the be all and end all.

In 2007/8 I had cause to work for an extended period very close to Afan. It took precisely 2 weeks at twice a week for me to realise there’s fundamentally one line and the riding there is about subsequent iterative improvements to that one line. It took me three weeks until I was bored. Now, I fully appreciate this is my preference, but one of the most rewarding things about MTB for me is planning lines out of chaos and executing them in real time and that was missing because the choices were taken away from me.

It’s a tired old trope, but a useful one, to compare trail centres to junk food. For me, they’re an occasional treat, and I treat myself more when the weather is poor and I need cheering up, when mud plugging get too much and fancy a hoon, but too often and I get bored. Other people like to eat more burgers than I do, and that’s fair enough.

BPW is a little different, in that they’ve thought carefully about rider progression, and in my eyes it’s a genuinely useful self teaching venue. It’s certainly allowed me to advance my drops and air time whilst having a great time. But, I’d not really want to ride there more often than say, 3 times a year. As it is, I’m struggling for new combinations off the hill by the end of the day as it all starts to get a bit samey.

I think all trail centres have made MTB accessible and widened the participant background.

Riding bikes is ace.

I love them both. Trail centers are like going to a skatepark. Cool fun tails more big bike oriented play ground type affairs.

Natural riding is more of a adventure, sometimes technical sometimes physically challenging sometimes both. Definitely very different types of riding which is why I have two very different bikes for them.

I except though that some people don’t want to do the other.

No berms on corners…

Well, that’s it. Not going there.

I’m quite happy to go spend a day clearing out and ride a trail that I have no legal right to do, giving myself and others another place to add in to our local riding, if the local landowner pulls it down (they’d have to block it, as I don’t really tend to ‘build’ much as such, so there’s nothing really to pull down) then hey ho, I’m fine with that, I’ve only lost a days building.

…

As I said, I can either bemoan the lack of local stuff, or I can do something about it.

Pretty much my view too. I know a little bit about trail building and maintenance, and actually enjoy being out in the woods feeling the seasons change after a week staring at a screen indoors.

I’ve not been to BPW, is it in an old quarry or ex industrial area or FC land? If it’s getting very busy then surely there’s a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

There is a really good HKT podcast with one of the guys from BPW talking about how it all started. Very interesting, a lot of the funding was from the EU (something like £2million I think?), so any future projects would likely need funding from elsewhere.

riding trail centres- its like going into a brothel and asking for a kiss

Not sure I quite get that.

I’m lucky in that I’ve lived in the Lake District, Peak, North York Moors, and now Reading (yea, the good times had to end at some point). So I’ve had easy access to a variety of natural riding, views, remoteness, quiet tracks etc. And now I’ve still got the chilterns (bit busy with roads to be considered proper ‘out in the hills’ riding) and the quasai natural trail center that is the Surrey/Berkshire/Hampshire border.

So having had a lot of ‘natural’ riding locally, going to to a trail center is not like going to a brothel and asking for a kiss, it’s going to a brothel and asking for that unspeakably dirty thing your other half once found in your internet history and threatened to cut your bollocks off if you ever tried it at home. And you probably do it several times an hour for a whole day.

You still love your other half, but she’s not 5 straight minutes of berms and tabletops.

Going to scotland to ride through a Glen (which could be a midge infested bog followed by some hike a bike uphill) is like going to a brothel and picking the good looking girl, but she’s got crabs and you only do missionary.

if you go to the mountains and dont ride them why did you go to the mountains?

I agree that not all natural routes are brilliant [and i am not saying all trail centres are shit before i get accused of that ]

If it’s getting very busy then surely there’s a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

About 50% of the entire land area of the Valleys could be made into bike park. There are even already roads up to the top of most of it. It really is the perfect area for it. Steep low-value land with 2-300m elevation difference, road access and motorways.

Can we just agree that TCs and natural are just different styles of riding and they can both be enjoyed according to personal taste?

Going to scotland to ride through a Glen (which could be a midge infested bog followed by some hike a bike uphill) is like going to a brothel and picking the good looking girl, but she’s got crabs and you only do missionary.

Yeah, but just think of the tales in the pub afterwards! 😆

@molgrips – it’s often the supporting infrastructure that can be the problem: access; parking; sanitation. Work that out, make a business plan and get locals involved. If local businesses and councillors can be persuaded that it benefits them then planning permission is a lot easier.

No berms on corners…
Well, that’s it. Not going there.

My point is that TCs are best used for fairly flat-out, ‘flowy’ riding and the speeds modern bikes are capable of, even with a very average rider, means that riders are hitting trails and corners much faster than the trails were originally designed for. I find standard TC switchbacky down the valley side trails without berms really frustrating because I lose all speed/flow and have to start again. I was perfectly happy riding the same trails on my 100mm hardtail years ago.

Note I much prefer natural trails (rode 4 times in the Lakes last week) but I go to TCs for a reason and many TC trails are still designed for 90s hardtails vs BPW and some other TCs who’ve adapted to the latest rider demands/requirements.

So having had a lot of ‘natural’ riding locally, going to to a trail center is not like going to a brothel and asking for a kiss, it’s going to a brothel and asking for that unspeakably dirty thing your other half once found in your internet history and threatened to cut your bollocks off if you ever tried it at home.

Wins the thread!

I’ve not been to BPW, is it in an old quarry or ex industrial area or FC land? If it’s getting very busy then surely there’s a business case for another somewhere not too close to it.

FC or NRW as it’s called in Wales and it’s not ‘getting busy’ it opened to a complete sell out and I don’t think they’ve ever failed to sell an uplift place since.

There was a DH track there for years and I’m told one of the black trails has elements of that original track in it – how true I don’t know.

The area itself is, like a lot of the valley’s, a former mining area and been struggling for a long time – not many opportunities for young people, most I think come to Cardiff for work.

The ‘business case’ element has already hurt Cwmcarn – The Cafal and Pedalhounds track were part of the original Cognation Plan (£6m-ish funding for MTB stuff in South Wales) – Caerphilly Council who run CC, took the money, spent a lot on a bigger Car Park (and made it Pay and Display where is was previously free) built some toilets and a shop and then, when it came to building the actual trails, got cold feet, citing the need with BPW being so close, it took a lot of campaigning to get them to do it – even now, they’re having cold feet about re-opening the scenic drive now the forestry work is complete.

I personally think the non-BPW elements of Cognation were very poorly handled, the North Wales version (which built AS) was better – the plans were very new trail orientated, but NPT that run Afan didn’t build any new adult trails per-se, they reopened Penhydd which was closed by NRW, Built Blade which was funded by the Wind Farm people and used some fire roads to create W2 – I may be wrong, but they seemed to spend their pot on a slightly daft because it’s not big enough glass roof extension for the cafe, and then closed it.

Anyway, it makes be a bit ranty.

I live 20 mins from BPW. Great place but I never go there because its full of the all the gear no idea crew. I prefer the quieter natural trails and Cwmcarn/Afan. Earn your descents!