Hmmm, the Tories get into power and then act like Tories, not much surprise really.
I think you should apologies to yourself for wasting precious time involved in totally pointless debate on here.

Well yes it was a general apology. I honestly wanted to give them a chance. After the labour debacle, I hoped for a minute that maybe things might change..

I honestly wanted to give them a chance.

You wanted to give them a second chance ? That’s very generous of you.

The Tories don’t do “second chances”.

Unless of course, it’s a very important person like former editor from News International Andy Coulson ……. Cameron was very keen to give him a second chance.

But for everyone else there is no second chance. If you steal some cheap mineral water from a supermarket for example, then you can expect to get 6 months, despite not having a previous criminal record.

Zero tolerance is a wonderful thing. Unless it’s applied to MPs, bankers, newspaper editors, etc. etc.

Yes Ernie, I think I realise that, hence the apology. Is this not enough for you?

Of course it is toys, I’m very forgiving…………I’m that kinda guy.

😀

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Teej, imagine the joy when you apologise for unstintingly supporting labour!!

I don’t, never have and I doubt I ever will do

I must admit that I had hoped that the Lib-Dems would be a moderating force for the Tories (I actually got the exact election result that I wanted).

Unfortunately the alternative is still unpallatable. Ed Milliband is still wet and useless and the Lib-Dems appear to have abandoned many of their principles.

It is however a little unfair to castigate the Toty party for the stiff sentnaces as the judiciary is independent and I suspect that many of the sentances will be reduced in appeal. Although unfortunately many will have completed their sentances by the time this happens. The main problem however is not the sentances but the lack of consitancy which brings the whole system into disrepute.

The Tories are right however on the auterity measures as the deficit is too high and to date we have successfully retained the AAA status. The trick now is to keep this while maintaining growth (however slow). I have zero confidence that Labour could have achieved this.

frodo – tbh I agree with their economic polcies too, and their “ideologically motivated spending cuts” . Just not this..

Come on guys! Let’s raise our horizons a bit. Just because we have ended up with 2 (or is it 3?) sets of goat-humping capitalist managers whose real political differences are scarcely discernable to the naked eye doesn’t mean that it’s all we have to accept, or indeed that this is all there is.

It’s a big world out there.

In previous generations and centuries, people progressed by recognising that what they had to put up with was intolerable, and therefore developing political and economic theories and ideas to challenge the status quo. When they rose up, they had an alternative to strive for – not just mindless **** you-ism. Maybe that’s what we need to do again now, so that we can say ‘sod you’ to Tory, Labour, Lib-Dem and any other small minded self seeker who seeks to restrict our choices.

There’s an old anarchist (not that I am one) slogan that I rather like:

‘Be realistic – demand the impossible!’

Way to go…………

Politics is just a way to distract people from the fact that we all have to pitch in and sort this shit out.

The influence of the rich and poweful must be removed as they only care about money and we that is to say all of us need to take an active part in sorting out our future.

That however would take great organisation and leadership, it would also take a lot of sacrafice!

The influence of the rich and poweful must be removed as they only care about money and we that is to say all of us need to take an active part in sorting out our future.

House of Commons Research says 65.1% of voters turned out in the 2010 election.

1 in 3 people should therefore be banned from complaining about anything the government does…

There’s an old anarchist (not that I am one) slogan that I rather like:

‘Be realistic – demand the impossible!’

Way to go…………

And that there strikes at the very heart of much that is wrong with British politics today. The lobbed sided alignment of British politics in which “real political differences are scarcely discernible” owes much to the destructive nature of Trotskite tactics, which very much include the “be realistic – demand the impossible” strategy. Although of course the failures and betrayals of the non-Marxist left also clearly played a huge role in discrediting the established Left.

As someone who can fairly be described as ‘far left’ in that my goal is the eventual overthrow of the existing social and economic order and the establishment of a fully democratic model, I totally reject the ultra-leftist “demand the impossible” strategy.

It is based on the false premiss that making impossible demands will lead to a revolutionary situation whereby the capitalist system will be unable to satisfy demands, and will therefore simply ‘implode’.

It completely ignores the consequences of highly probable failure, and the devastating effect this would have on the working classes, whose interests are merely dismissed as subservient to achieving idealogical goals. My ideology exists solely to serve the people, I do not believe that people exist to serve an ideology.

It also completely ignores the stark reality that the working classes are very clearly unlikely to make impossible and unachievable demands. And that to offer this as a practical solution/alternative simply further alienates working people from the Left.

It is for those reasons stated, that I ardently believe the strategy has to be realistic and achievable demands. I will always work for “immediate gains” which serve the best interests of working people within a capitalist system. I am more than happy to engage in “class collaboration”, so derided by the ultra-left, if it helps to achieve this.

And it is with this aim in mind, that I am committed to the struggle to re-establish Britain as a social-democratic society. Social democracy by far represents the most workable and acceptable form of capitalism. Capitalism in all of its guises, including social democracy, will never provide the answers – social democracy simply changes the priorities. But don’t even begin to think that you can make the argument for revolutionary change if you can’t even win the argument for social democracy.

One step at a time……don’t demand the impossible.

And desist from infantile talk

Bloody hell Ernie, that was impressive, however it would all take self-sacrifice and a unified mindset of working towards a goal that will never happen…Unfortunately.

…however it would all take self-sacrifice and a unified mindset of working towards a goal that will never happen…Unfortunately.

What won’t happen, human progress ? ……..of course it will. I have an unshatterable faith in the inevitability of human progress. You might dismiss me as a hopelessly romantic idealist who is deluding himself with wishful thinking, but I actually have thousands of years worth of evidence to back up my claims.

Indeed it is those who believe that our present society in 2011 represents the pinnacle of human evolution, and that no further progress can or will be achieved, who are hopelessly deluded. And their naive arrogance has much in common with those who 100 years ago, or 200 years ago, or 500 years, and or even 2,000 years ago, also believed that their society had reached the maximum limit of possible human development, and who could not envisage any further progress.

2000 years ago Romano-Britain represented the very best human society had ever achieved, and yet since then human society has relentlessly and steadfastly continued to evolve and progress. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that we have now reached our final destination, and that all problems associated with ordered human society have been resolved. In fact the evidence is all around us that clearly shows we can’t even satisfy basic human needs. Governmental politics across the globe are in fact just exercises in crises management. With economics being more or less the permanent number one crises issue.

This isn’t it mate, we’ve still a lot of progress to make. And we will make progress. And it will be for the better – it always is. Although I am fully aware that for every 3 steps forward, mankind tends to take 2 steps backwards, but the general direction is beyond doubt – society is indisputably better now than it was 100 years ago, and society a 100 years ago was indisputably better than society 500 years previously, and so on.

But whilst the inevitability of progress is clear, it’s manner and time-scale is much harder to predict given the complex nature of the chaos theory/butterfly effect/dialectical materialism. So whilst many could predict with complete certainty the eventual fall of the Apartheid regime for example, no one could predict precisely how and when. And things can move pretty damn fast too – who could have predicted the Arab Spring or what sparked it ?

Then again sometimes it can take several centuries for fundamental changes to occur in society, such as in the transition from feudalism to full bourgeois republicanism/constitutional monarchy in the European nations.

Eventually human society will even evolve beyond the limitations of the most advanced form democracy, when there will no longer be a need for majorities and minorities ……of that I have no doubt.

“I have seen the promised land…. And I might not get there with you, but I want you to know…that we as a people will get to the promised land!” ……Martin Luther King 😀

Interesting stuff Ernie. This I want to believe..

Eventually human society will even evolve beyond the limitations of the most advanced form democracy, when there will no longer be a need for majorities and minorities ……of that I have no doubt

I think that’s gonna take something chemical or biological. Humans aren’t wired to be like that unfortunately. Maybe everyone should be forced to do some mind altering drugs!

I think that’s gonna take something chemical or biological. Humans aren’t wired to be like that unfortunately. Maybe everyone should be forced to do some mind altering drugs!

Human beings managed perfectly well organised in autonomous/self governing societies for hundreds of thousands of years…….evolution wired us up to be like that.

It all started going pear-shaped about 3 thousand or so years ago.

I blame wheat.

Go to bed now please everyone.

Surplus is the root of all evil.

cheese n onion in a blue bag is the root of all evil. and don’t you forget it. Elfin is being patronising. time to hit the hay surplus…

Good point about society evolving,but that is pretty much a given,150 years ago we hung children. BUT does the “collective” want change, or are too many of us comfy, or getting along well enough to put up with they way things are? I often think that the likes of Green etc are the new Feudal Nobility,and it took 20 generations to get rid of their power. Right; I am off on me DoE,apologies to anybody else using the Cairngorms rain is my fault this weekend,It would be nice if this thread remained civil,which would buck recent trends on here.I look forward to seeing how it develops.

So you describe society continuing to evolve as “a given”, but you’re not sure that change will happen because you question whether people want it ? 😕 You do understand that to evolve means to undergo change don’t you ?

And change doesn’t always occur because people “want it”. As Harold Macmillan who I’m fond of quoting, once said, “Events, my dear boy, events”.

Ok, the potential for society to evolve is a given, is it in a hell of a lot of wealthy peoples interest for it to? Nope.