such a silly argument saying it’s an inanimate object..

but it is an inanimate object, it’s not an argument it’s a fact, people don’t get off in court with the defence…”the gun did it”.

Aside from the actual fact it’s an inanimate object..are you using that in defence of gun ownership or are you just saying a fact about the gun? Because that argument is used in defence of gun ownership and that’s when I’m saying it’s a dumb argument. Which it is…I guess it the use of dumb arguments that have accounted for thousands of unnecessary deaths across the US…

I guess behind every unnecessary death there’s a necessary person..

It isn’t possible to uninvent the inanimate object, so the best we can do is limit its circulation.

Sorry but 50m is bugger all for an air rifle (sub 12fpe) never mind any sort of powder burner. Can get roughly 3″ groups at that range with a springer and I’m hardly Carlos the Jackal. I know for a fact I could do better with a semi auto rifle (from cadets before anyone asks).

But it’s not is it . I’m not questioning your shooting ability, I’ll take you at your word, but there are guys out there every weekend , shooting PCP air rifles with decent glass on the top who are missing 3″ wide targets. Most people would struggle to see a 3″ target at 50 metres let alone hit it
Add in recoil from a rifle and adrenaline surging through your veins and I reckon most would struggle to hit a 3 ft target.
Last time I was on holiday abroad, I entered the air rifle contest, which happened to be your typical 4″ target, set at a huge 7m distance. There were plenty who missed it altogether . These are the type of people buying these weapons

I guess you could put all gun owners through basic marksman training…the one day concealed carry course is just ridiculous.The police chief in the program questioned the ability of some gun owners to put rounds where it matters when it matters.

The police chief in the program questioned the ability of some gun owners to put rounds where it matters when it matters

In the black guy at a routine stop?

the energy released into the arrow with a hex 7 border recurve

Hex 7? Wassat?

But it’s not is it . I’m not questioning your shooting ability, I’ll take you at your word, but there are guys out there every weekend , shooting PCP air rifles with decent glass on the top who are missing 3″ wide targets. Most people would struggle to see a 3″ target at 50 metres let alone hit it
Add in recoil from a rifle and adrenaline surging through your veins and I reckon most would struggle to hit a 3 ft target.
Last time I was on holiday abroad, I entered the air rifle contest, which happened to be your typical 4″ target, set at a huge 7m distance. There were plenty who missed it altogether . These are the type of people buying these weapons

But it’s not really a 3″ target is it? A human body is a lot bigger and the hit doesn’t need to be clean.

I do take what you’re saying and agree that under stressful conditions the chances are you’re going to be hitting either nothing or something/one else. If you’re a calm, considered shooter out for “lots of fun*” though this changes somewhat.

This competition – pistols or rifles? Not that it matters much you’ve made your point.

* quoted from this

“Sorry but the argument ‘that guns don’t hurt people it’s the people behind them’ is just dumb…”
Nope. That statement is. I know where lots of firearms are. None of them have ever so much as growled at me.

Thing is…. why do people rant on so much about firearms yet happily condone millions more people, even in this country, owning a much more lethal weapon?
The private car. Same thing applies but many times over.

The anti gun brigade have no valid argument unless they are anti other things that could be used to hurt people, especially those that are more common and as easy to hurt others with.
Same attitude as “you don’t pay car tax”
Not a bloody clue.

This competition – pistols or rifles?

Rifles…

Just read that link. That’s pretty harrowing.

I’m currently watching it on catchup..

I’ll be honest – I don’t geddit…
They all live in fear of someone coming into their homes – statistically, this is likely to be a minuscule event, right?
And they all ‘want to protect their families’ from people with guns.
By buying a gun.

Oh..kay…

And this is this thing – if someone pulls a gun on you, and don’t shoot you, then you’re alive. If they shoot you, you’re shot…
If they DON’T shot you, and you then pull a gun (whilst it’s pointing at you), most certainly they’ll NOW shoot you…right?

Like the lady in the beginning in the ‘road rage’ incident. She didn’t get shot. She had a gun pointed at her.
IF that were to happen, and she then pulled a gun..clearly you’ll NOW get shot.

Like I said.. I don’ geddit…

Afraid of people with guns? Get more guns…

DrP

Yeah, someone mentioned Port Arthur a few pages back and I found that. Makes me glad we have the controls that we do, even if they are absurd in specific instances.

Matt – really? That’s the best argument you can come up with?

2 things:

1. The level of fear in that program is off the chart & the problem is it’s self-propagating.

2. Mattscm….

Youre comparing the car to a gun…..?

Why not throw, kitchen knives, baseball bars, chain saws, brooks, a pilllow, slippery floors & fruit dropping off trees into the mix whilst you’re at it….

Guns have a lethality in their very design – i.e. They shoot stuff at high velocities often with no other purpose than to maim, injure & kill. The last time I checked cars were designed to get from A to B..

the rented apartment where he lives and shares with two others, he has 17 handguns, 3 assault rifles (one fitted with a thermal scope) two combat shotguns and a hunting rifle. This collection is for home dee-fence apparently

What happens when someone breaks in and either steals them or worse lies in wait to attack him?

its a god given right – and no logic will overcome that

Now I’m not a militant atheist – but even I have a problem with that concept justifying anything.

amongst kids from less advantaged backgrounds, where there is a far greater sense of dog eat dog and the struggle for ‘survival’.

When people feel they are competing for resources – conflict increases and compassion decreases, so that is easy to understand.

I’m extremely pro gun and have spent a lot of time in the states and like it there. I felt safer walking through the bronx than I sometimes do through Birmingham.

Now, I’m sorry dude but this is nuts! I live in far from the richest area in Brum and go through most of it very regularly to see friends etc… After over 30 years in the area, I’ve never been mugged or attacked on the street. I am glad you cannot own an automatic or handgun if this is how you think. The level of danger you are worried about is very, very unusual.

What scares me is the delusion some people have relating to weapon proficiency. The hours I have to put in on the range to remain proficient is ridiculous.

So when I hear the Americans talk about keeping them for home/self defence I cringe. We do specific under-stress serials to ensure that we respond swiftly and decisively to ensure maximum effective rounds on target.

It would genuinely scare me being surrounded by civilians packing heat thinking they’re competent and drilled enough to draw a weapon under stress and to engage a target without hitting anyone else. Terrifying.

“I’m extremely pro gun and have spent a lot of time in the states and like it there. I felt safer walking through the bronx than I sometimes do through Birmingham.”

Missed this. Really?

Maybe you mean we early hours of Sat morning in the centre?

I’ve been in Birmingham. Plus Manchester and London in the small hours, including Brixton etc years ago. I never felt scared but maybe that’s because I grew up in such areas. This afternoon I was sat in a packed sauna in Moss side Manchester. Saying that doesn’t explain Bronx.

why do people rant on so much about firearms yet happily condone millions more people, even in this country, owning a much more lethal weapon?
The private car.

Because guns’ raison d’etre is to kill people whereas cars is to move people from place to place. Not really a difficult comparison.

Because guns’ raison d’etre is to kill people whereas cars is to move people from place to place. Not really a difficult comparison.

Well, that’s not true is it – an F-Class target rifles raison d’etre is shooting targets accurately and at a great distance, a deer rifles raison d’etre is killing deer, and a double barrel shotguns raison d’etre is shooting birds – I could also point out that in many countries, there are big animals that eat people, hence people regularly carry guns for anything BUT killing people.

If we go back to the car example, who needs a 150mph speed demon car or motorbike to get from place to place? Do cars need to do 0-60 in five seconds? Of course not, whats wrong with the bus/bike/horse and cart? People buy them because they are fun – bloody good fun at times, used sensibly and in in the appropriate place, and bloody dangerous when used irresponsibly or inappropriately

Just like guns

Unfortunately the weapon of choice in America is a handgun or assault rifle. Designed for…?

So Nifan …what your saying is your happy for all the innocent dead kids and adults in America because having a gun is fun…so it’s worth it…yeah love your argument…let’s all get guns and make us happy!!!..

weapon of choice in America is a handgun or assault rifle.

Look how popular the Subaru WRX and Honda fireblade are.

So Nifan …what your saying is your happy for all the innocent dead kids and adults in America because having a gun is fun.

Should all cars in the U.K. be limited to 40 MPH maximum, or are all the innocent dead kids and adults an acceptable price because getting somewhere a bit quicker is convenient?

If we go back to the car example, who needs a 150mph speed demon car or motorbike to get from place to place? Do cars need to do 0-60 in five seconds? Of course not, whats wrong with the bus/bike/horse and cart? People buy them because they are fun – bloody good fun at times, used sensibly and in in the appropriate place, and bloody dangerous when used irresponsibly or inappropriately

Just like guns

Yeah….

But,

Cars are designed to transport people & stuff..

Most guns (like nearly all) are designed to kill stuff that’s alive..

I grant you that some guns have a specific intent in their design i.e. target shooting…..but I doubt a Desert Eagle or an M16 were ever designed to do anything else other than hurt someone.

A bit different from your Ford Mondeo or your T5 van I think you’ll find, which as I understand it were never designed for close protection or combat..

Look how popular the Subaru WRX and Honda fireblade are.

Whats that got to do with ownership of an assault rifle??

Your getting your facts mixed up @nifan….. 😀

Most guns (like nearly all) are designed to kill stuff that’s alive..

And what’s wrong with that? What do you think happens to the Ickle fwuffy wabbits and deers that eat all your vegetables in the fields?

Ford Mondeo or your T5 van I think you’ll find, which as I understand it were never designed for close protection or combat..

Mondeo 1.5 ecoboost top speed, 133 MPH – why?
T5 102 HP top speed 98 MPH, 150HP top speed 112 MPH – why?

Whats that got to do with ownership of an assault rifle??

They are to ‘practical motoring’ – (i.e. ‘Transporting people and stuff’ as you justify cars as being designed for) what the assault rifle is to civilian shooting

Totally unnecessary but bloody good fun

That poor kid & his girlfriend in the car..

That wasn’t self-defence, that was murder, an execution almost..

4 times at point blank range at a target that was sat down…..FFS……

I heard the arguments of the gun shop owner, he was so blasé about it, so everyday yadda yadda yadda……

If that officer had been a little bit cooler headed that kid might still be alive (In all likelihood 1 shot at that range would probably have killed the boy).

Breaks my heart & makes me very grateful that I live in a country where the police aren’t armed & we have good gun controls.

FYI I was in the Army for 10 years, I’ve held a firearm & shotgun licence both of which I’be given up as I just don’t see the need, thankfully, for someone like myself to have access to such weaponry.

Mondeo 1.5 ecoboost top speed, 133 MPH – why?
T5 102 HP top speed 98 MPH, 150HP top speed 112 MPH – why?

what the assault rifle is to civilian shooting

Now you’re just talking sh1te.

You’re trying to argue that a Mondeo & an M16 are the same in terms of purpose.

Utter bollox.

If that officer had been a little bit cooler headed that kid might still be alive

It’s a shame the officer wasn’t as cool headed as the girlfriend..

I suppose the officer pulled the trigger out of fear..

The interesting thing about top speed is that it is related to the engine power that increases the ‘driveability’ of the vehicle at lower speeds and with heavier loads. A GPS limiter could reduce the available top speed and reduce misuse and some potential for lethality.

Could you do similar with guns to reduce their lethality in designed use[/b]?

jamj1974

The interesting thing about top speed is that it is related to the engine power

I would have thought it was related to gearing and aerodynamics.

A GPS limiter could reduce the available top speed and reduce misuse and some potential for lethality.

What is statistically more dangerous, driving over the limit in a 30mph / 40mph zone or on a motorway? I would have thought speeding in urban / built up areas is considerably more lethal for other road users. Just guessing mind you.

Guns can’t really be power limited as their intended use (and therefore design) are governed by simple laws of physics as related to the projected range.

Cars, yes, can be tuned for better acceleration and power with a cap on top speed. Jimjam, yes, top speed is restricted by power. Otherwise you could just fit a silly top gear and set world land speed records in FIAT Pandas (silly comparison yes but same point).

AFAIK M16’s are not permitted firearms since they are full auto. You’ll be confusing them with AR15’s (though we’re really just arguing semantics, the outcome is little different or more likely worse with a controlled semi auto).

Guns can’t really be power limited as their intended use (and therefore design) are governed by simple laws of physics as related to the projected range.

Indeed. My point entirely.

I would have thought it was related to gearing and aerodynamics.

Partly!

Breaks my heart & makes me very grateful that I live in a country where the police aren’t armed & we have good gun controls

What country is that then? Some little island somewhere where they drive round on mobility scooters and everyone leaves their doors unlocked?

And as for guns being power limited well the licensing system in this country does have bearings on muzzle energy as each caliber is limited by how much it can take in CUP (units of pressure) and its muzzle velocity and kinetic energy, in fact you have minimum energy/bullet weight requirements for shooting deer (varies slightly in Scotland) to stop people trying to shoot them with .22 rim fire and to make sure there is enough energy to kill not maim. You can’t simply get an FAC and buy a 30-06 to plink cans in your back garden.

If the car licensing system was run on similar principles then there would be less road deaths as speed would be taken out of the equation. Want a 300bhp car that’s only for use at approved ranges (tracks) no problem. 40hp 60mph limited (20 in gps activated urban areas) you can have that too, but not the 180mph nob-motor.

If the car licensing system was run on similar principles then there would be less road deaths as speed would be taken out of the equation.

Blimey – just think if UK driving licences were really on the same principles as FAC 😯

Nicked for drunk and disorderly, well, you’re clearly a potential drink-driving risk, bye bye driving licence (to put this in context, people done for drink driving have lost their gun licences on this principle)
Assault/violent behaviour – intemperate behaviour and road rage risk, lose your licence
Speeding offences? Five years mandatory sentence
Replacement licence with two witnesses as to your behaviour and attitude every five years

And all that on top of having to prove good reason to own a car in the first place!

As usual the best way to deflect criticism of gun ownership is to dive straight into road traffic. If you fixed road safety would you accept strict gun control? Probably not. It’s all just to divert from the argument that guns and gun owners in the US are responsible for a serious amount of totally unnecessary death. Cars should be treated the same way at times with safety protocols etc. thankfully the world isn’t binary and we can look at the 2 issues separately.

How about some simple common sense rules that allow for the ownership of certain weapons but they must be held in a range and not taken out of them (same as if you want to drive like a racing driver go to the track with your car on a trailer) have a transport system if you want your guns moved.

But back to simple things if you have such little trust in your democracy (the one that gets held up as the best in the world when suited) that you need to have a Plan B that involves an armed uprising then you have something wrong.
If you feel the need to arm yourself for self defence purposes then your law enforcement have got something wrong.

The stats speak for themselves, unfortunately the gun lobby’s cash shouts loudly and some people can’t work out what is actually sensible.
I think it was the point where Academics were considering leaving the Uni of Texas as it had been told it had to allow concealed carry – sounds like a recipe for disaster given the rollercoaster of emotions students tend to go through would you want to be failing a kid who could be armed?

back to simple things if you have such little trust in your democracy (the one that gets held up as the best in the world when suited) that you need to have a Plan B that involves an armed uprising then you have something wrong.

Maybe it’s the best democracy precisely because they can have an armed uprising. Power remains vested in the people.

They got the idea from us remember.

Maybe it’s the best democracy precisely because they can have an armed uprising. Power remains vested in the people.

Perhaps but as likely as me thinking of the winning lottery numbers while landing a double back flip at Rampage 2017.
The price they are paying for clinging to an outdated idea is huge.
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
12,528 dead so far this year, I’d be hard pushed to say it’s worth it.
For reference that is the capacity of Bristol Rovers Stadium


2015 was 13,476 thats the capacity of Franklin Gardens home of Northamption RFC