England had Dunblane

Geography fail.

Hungerford is in England.

What i don’t understand, it is one thing to own a gun for supposed self defence, it is another thing to own an AR15 assault rifle,

How else are you going to defend yourself from someone with an AK?

[/quote]perchypanther – Member
England had Dunblane
Geography fail.

Hungerford is in England.

I knew what i meant….

jimjam – Member
What i don’t understand, it is one thing to own a gun for supposed self defence, it is another thing to own an AR15 assault rifle,
How else are you going to defend yourself from someone with an AK?

I think the idea is that if they didn’t allow the sale of assault rifles and their ilk in the first place, that the other person wouldn’t have the Ak47 either?

Or if they are deemed necessary for sporting usage, why can they not be restricted to single shot, where they must be left and locked up at the range?

I think the idea is

It was a joke. I was joking. And also trying to be clever.

Hungerford is in England.

I knew what i meant…. Strangely, I’ve always thought anyway, there is a gun shop in Hungerford!!

jimjam – Member
I think the idea is
It was a joke. I was joking. And also trying to be clever.

I hoped it was, but you might have been one of those sneeky ‘merikans coming over here and taking our women and using our forums……..

Because, like it or not, self defence isn’t the reason for the second amendment, whereas limiting government power is

Amusing.

scud

I hoped it was, but you might have been one of those sneeky ‘merikans coming over here and taking our women and using our forums……..

If I was you would have already known about it – with bells on. On one of the mainly american forums I frequent this kind of debate is non existent. It could never even happen. The pro gun people, even the moderate ones are literally off the chart in every way compared to the average European. They aren’t even remotely concerned with the wheres and hows of “bad guys” terrorists or mentally unstable people getting access to guns because they themselves have their guns.

The gun isn’t the problem, it’s the solution.

I was in business in Charlotte NC this summer. There was a gun range next to the hotel where I was staying. I haven’t fired a gun for 30 years since I left the RAF but I enjoyed it as a skill so spent an hour on the range with a couple of hand guns. Good fun, but I wouldn’t want one at home. A hammer is too dangerous for a clutz like me.

I thought the program was quite interesting. The paranoia of people coming in was to me in some respects understandable giving the general background new reports that were presented in the show. Being worried about such social issues is one thing, the aspect I was surprised at was the short-snap decisions of ‘ I’m going to buy a gun today‘ regardless. The staff would ask why do you want a gun, and their rationale for answers were based simply on what they saw on the news that morning.

I’d be more impressed if the answers came back as being along the lines of I’ve considered for a while…blah blah blah . You could even see the staff pull slight quizzical faces at some of the answers as to why they want a gun.

Another concern from the program was that people were leaving the shop with only the smallest amount of weapon handling/training. The manner in which some of the people were handling the gun was quite alarming, and for that to transfer out into the public space is likely only going to lead to missed shots and unintended targets being hit.

I personally believe that if someone wants to use/own a gun for sport/target type activity, then that is OK and that issues come from society attitudes and behaviours of their use, rather than the physical gun itself.

Similarly, with cars/motorbikes, they are items that can when used incorrectly take life, but when used correctly are fine to have.

Its a sad inditement on society to see the average person be so frightened of what might happen when going about their business that they see the need to carry a gun on them with an expectation of using it.

chris has got it right maybe

I’m extremely pro gun and have spent a lot of time in the states and like it there. I felt safer walking through the bronx than I sometimes do through Birmingham.

The statement made during the program… Something along the lines of ‘The gun is just a machine, a very efficient killing machine’ is very true.

It’s the nut behind the butt that is the problem. There needs to be more done using technology to develop weapons, especially pistols to limit functionality when not in the owners hands. That would stop the numerous dogs and children from shooting their parents as well as a big chunk of the gang shootings but you will never stop the crazy people.

Even someone with mild depression – is it a good idea to sell them a gun?

No, probably not. But only because I don’t think it’s a good idea to sell anyone, with or without mild depression, a gun in the unrestricted way the Americans do it.

Anything else you think people with mild depression should be prevented from doing? Operating heavy machinery? Driving a motor vehicle? Buying alcohol? Buying paracetemol? Entering tall buildings? Being allowed out in the community without a chaperone?

Saw this on my FB – prize offered by local gun shop. Matching coffee cup and glock.

The program did give quite a clear insight into the mentality of people feeling the need to own a gun, both customers and shop staff. Americans have been brought up on a diet of fear and paranoia since independence, reaching a peak during the Cold War years. Now that fear has transferred from “Commies” to anything from the Police to terrorists. It must be sh1t feeling that scared all the time, as witnessed in the young mother indoctrinating her children to kill.

The death statistics comparisons are meaningless if you (as most do) include suicides in gun deaths.

But even leaving statistics aside, the idea that there are a lot of guns around and that the police are too far away to protect you IF something happens is frankly a strong motivator. So its really hard to imagine a situation where the law abiding would give up their guns knowing that the criminals would not.

It’s not quite so hard to imagine a situation where there are greater checks on people getting some types of guns in the first place. But even that comes up against the idea that even small changes now will lead to more and more restrictions in the future until “they come and take all your guns away”.

Its unhelpful to the “anti gun” side that there is a shedload of historical evidence from europe (and the UK) where, over many years, thats exactly what happened.

We may think (with hindsight) that thats a good thing? But some might suggest that the situation in the UK, where a law abiding person can be arrested and convicted for having a small swiss army knife in their pocket, or threatened with jail for attacking a burglar, is an example of exactly the sort of society that people in the US dont want to end up living in?

Even in threads on here about self defence and the law in the UK, its obvious that many “average” people feel the law (and its interpretation by the authorities) is considerably more restrictive than fairness and good sense should make it. We voted ourselves over many years into a position where the people to whom we’ve given power over our lives and freedom are often seen as too ignorant and careless of our own rights, and have taken away our ability to defend ourselves (with even non lethal weapons), and then not kept up the side of the bargain where they are meant to keep us and our property safe.

Maybe Americans think that price is too high? Maybe they look at us and think that thats not where they want to end up?

edlong

No, probably not. But only because I don’t think it’s a good idea to sell anyone, with or without mild depression, a gun in the unrestricted way the Americans do it.

And yet you’re critical of me, for criticizing Americans when they won’t allow mental health to be a determining factor when it comes to who can or can’t buy a gun. Perhaps by bringing up mental health I’ve triggered you in some way and you feel compelled to argue a point when the point I’m making is pretty obviously not intended to target or discriminate against people with mental health issues.

Anything else you think people with mild depression should be prevented from doing? Operating heavy machinery? Driving a motor vehicle? Buying alcohol? Buying paracetemol? Entering tall buildings? Being allowed out in the community without a chaperone?

Since the thread is about a Gun Shop, and more broadly gun ownership I don’t really see what your point is, other than to somehow insinuate that I’m being irrational or discriminatory. Remember, a gun is tool designed to kill humans and it’s the most popular method of suicide in the states.

To shoot someone dead with a gun takes the flex of a finger from 50m away

Unless you were holding a high power rifle with a decent scope on top , in a prone position, I think I would take my chances.
I’d wager you wouldn’t hit a barn door at that distance using a handgun

‘The gun is just a machine, a very efficient killing machine’ is very true.

It’s the nut behind the butt that is the problem. its not it something gun nuts say to try and pretend a gun is for some purpose other than killing stuff and that guns are somehow not a part of the gun death problem.

Its not that surprising that folk who buy a thing use it for its designed purpose

Its fair to say it takes both a gun and someone willing to use it – lets ignore the vast number of accidents here – but it clearly easier to remove the gun than the culture.

Nations rise and fall. The USA is falling, their gun sales is a symptom. As is Trumpism.

Unless you were holding a high power rifle with a decent scope on top , in a prone position, I think I would take my chances.

Lots of people can do it standing with a rifle, with iron sights having just sprinted 10m whilst wearing a respirator

Pistols are an area weapon at 50m, rifles of any description aren’t

Yes , but you are talking about a trained operative.
I’m talking about Mary Jane Rottencrotch who has bought one for home defence

Yes , but you are talking about a trained operative.

Operative! LOL!

Trained, yes, Neanderthal man can be trained

Mac 10 for home defence . Spray and pray

Anything else you think people with mild depression should be prevented from doing? Operating heavy machinery? Driving a motor vehicle? Buying alcohol? Buying paracetemol? Entering tall buildings? Being allowed out in the community without a chaperone?

Since the thread is about a Gun Shop, and more broadly gun ownership I don’t really see what your point is, other than to somehow insinuate that I’m being irrational or discriminatory. Remember, a gun is tool designed to kill humans and it’s the most popular method of suicide in the states.[/quote]

Jimjam, I think Edlong was making a point about the deep-seated reasons behind why some gun owners fight against restrictions (note that I said ‘some’ – there are many that are just stupid and just want them for the sake of them). The thing that really worries them is that their fundamental freedoms are being eroded in many quarters. America is very different to the UK culturally, and I think a few posts have touched on this. It is important to understand this.

The mental health check requirement is a good example exposing the fear Americans have of ‘where will it stop?’ Like I said, many gun owners aren’t afraid of their gun rights being restricted, they are afraid of their rights in general being eroded. Who makes the decision that you are unfit, in whatever way, to do x or y? It’s one thing I hated about the UK and something I feel is unique about the US. Of course, it won’t last and is being eroded by both major political parties over here no matter what either of them pretend.

See eat_the_pudding’s post for a good summation at the end – there is a price to pay and many Americans don’t want to end up like the UK or many European countries.

As a disclaimer, I am British but also gained US Citizenship this year. I own guns and enjoy shooting them, even some competition (IDPA). I also have a concealed carry permit. I do not in any way, shape or form think my guns are going to magically save me from being attacked. I am not scared if I don’t have a gun on me. I have seen the classic Jim Jeffries gun rant and think it is both hilarious and accurate – there isn’t really an excuse for guns – ‘we just like ’em’. ‘Hang on, Mr criminal, I’m unlocking my gun safe…’ So true.

As an aside, let’s look at the armed forces a second. They have guns for the purpose of both offense and defense. Yet they lock them up when they are off duty and many active duty personnel are not allowed to carry even when working. Most gun owners don’t even realize this, especially the wannabe Rambo type.

Another aside, one of the biggest issues we have is gun theft. If people weren’t so bloody stupid and careless, hundreds of thousands of guns would not be in the hands of criminals (you know, those who do most of the shooting).

I don’t normally post unless I have something to offer and I don’t really like painting a target on myself (pun intended), but I just wanted to offer some perspective from the other side. This is a huge area of debate and there are sides to the arguments that I don’t have time to even scratch the surface of. I stayed out of the ‘American Flag/National Anthem’ thread because it made me sad/angry at a lot of the name calling and disrespect and didn’t want to be in the middle of it.

My mother-in-law is in her 70s and a proud American. She is a former special needs teacher, anti-gun, pro-Obama and worked hard her whole life to better her community. She stands to the national anthem, sometimes with a tear in her eye. I love her to bits, don’t agree with all her politics, but can’t argue that her American pride is anything but genuine, heartfelt and truly because she loves the nation. Not all Americans are idiots.

Heard an interesting talk the other day – all about police and guns. Even trained police (in US) often get shot as may not read signals fast enough that someone about to draw and shoot. If police get it wrong what are chances of guy in street saving themselves?!

This collection is for home dee-fence apparently.
better locks on your windows just isn’t as sexy as an M-16

The thing is, most American homes are largely timber construction, it would be more difficult to keep people out than with a solid brick construction.

Then you’d be dead. Doubly so if you lived anywhere remote or rural. How many people here keep a cricket bat or something somewhere in the house or the ubiquitous maglite torch in the car for self defense?

In the house I have a Gurkha kukhri that my late dad was given after WW2, and three very sharp axes for carving use.
I do carry a Maglite in the car, a three cell one, which did get used for that very purpose once, in Bath! I was halfway across a roundabout at the end of Walcot Street when a jackass in a hotted up Honda shot across from my right, cutting straight in front of me, so I hit the horn and flashed my lights. The traffic was stationary right in front so they had to stop almost straight away, then both occupants got out of the car and walked towards me with that tough-guy swagger that oiks adopt.
I had my window open, as it was a fine warm day, so I just took the Mag out of the door pocket and held it where they could see it against the door top.
Oddly enough they turned around and got back into their car.
Real tough guys… 🙄

Re. those numbers of guns in circulation figures. According to Washington Post Gun Ownership 36% of the US population own a gun. Well, I say a gun – apparently on average 8 guns.

Population is about 320 million, so thats about 115 million gun owners each with an average of 8 guns. That’s almost a billion.

Unless you were holding a high power rifle with a decent scope on top , in a prone position, I think I would take my chances.

Sorry but 50m is bugger all for an air rifle (sub 12fpe) never mind any sort of powder burner. Can get roughly 3″ groups at that range with a springer and I’m hardly Carlos the Jackal. I know for a fact I could do better with a semi auto rifle (from cadets before anyone asks).

As said its fear that drives people, from the completely paranoid to the folk protecting themselves in an escalating arms race.

I should add that although a gun (as a concept) is primarily designed to kill its not what it is necessarily used for. This is where so many anti gun campaigners lose the plot. You only have to look closer to home to see how ridiculous comparable legislation is (licence for air weapon in scotland, section 1 for >12fpe in UK but anyone can pick up a 38fpe draw crossbow by mail order!). Its unfortunate that, as with many things, so often sensible debate is stifled by frothing rhetoric on both sides.

frothing rhetoric

Not on this website, reasoned debate only here 😉

the situation in the UK, where a law abiding person can be arrested and convicted for having a small swiss army knife in their pocket,

No, they can’t.

(licence for air weapon in scotland, section 1 for >12fpe in UK but anyone can pick up a 38fpe draw crossbow by mail order!)

I’ve often wondered about this. You very rarely hear about bow / crossbow crimes, given how freely available they are (other than the occasional halfwit shooting a dog or something). I suppose concealability is an issue, it’s not going to be weapon of choice for your average scrote but it’d be a pretty effective tool for armed robbery. Maybe people just don’t take them seriously?

I was burgled years ago, and had a bow and arrows stolen. I tried to explain this to the police but couldn’t get it through to them that a potentially lethal weapon had been stolen, they totally didn’t care. I suppose they thought the arrows had suckers on the end.

(I’m not familiar with crossbow draw weights, what’s fpe?)

Foot pound energy. Archaic crap that converts to joules somewhere along the line.

Gotcha (not that I’m much nearer). I was wondering how that compared to bow weight, typically crossbows are higher power than regular bows.

Bow weight is measured in pounds at a measured draw length, as the farther you draw it the more weight you’re pulling. So mine’s “38@28” – at a 28 inch draw you’re holding 38lbs. IIRC, you add or remove 2lbs for every inch you draw over or under (though thinking about it, surely that varies with draw weight? Anyway).

Yeah I’m not entirely sure to be honest, fpe will be a combination of your released speed (as measured through a chronoscope) plus the weight of the projectile to make a measurement of kinetic energy. Your draw weight will be derived from this final figure.

Either way though, the law is an ass.

Cougar – Moderator
Bow weight is measured in pounds at a measured draw length, as the farther you draw it the more weight you’re pulling. So mine’s “38@28” – at a 28 inch draw you’re holding 38lbs. IIRC, you add or remove 2lbs for every inch you draw over or under (though thinking about it, surely that varies with draw weight?

My own bow specs –

Draw Weight: 185 lbs
Speed: 365+ fps
Power Stroke: 14″
Bow Weight 6.20 lbs
Compact Design: 19″ Uncocked and 15.5″ Cocked

Its frightening how far a field tip can penetrate 😯

Traditional bows work differently to xbows, the weight of the bow is one factor but the limb design matters, the energy released into the arrow with a hex 7 border recurve is different to that of a longbow. The designs also need the limb speed to be controlled by arrow weight etc etc

The other factor with bows is that anything over 40# is likely to be too much for most as a first timer, with compounds they are at risk of hurting themselves more than anyone else.

Guns aren’t the problem.

What? A gun is a tool designed to kill people. No gun no accidental death, no gun no spontaneous suicide, no gun no need to buy a gun because your neighbour has a gun…

Sorry but the argument ‘that guns don’t hurt people it’s the people behind them’ is just dumb…

If your arguing guns don’t kill people, it’s the people behind them then why own one? The sole purpose of a gun is to kill…its not a friggin fairy cake…

A gun is an inanimate object, as is a sword or a spear or a car or ad infinitum

Irrelevant lazybiker…how many children accidentally die from knife wounds, spear wounds, ad wounds or gun wounds…a cigarette is an inanimate object but it’s banned…a banana is an inanimate object but how many people die from banana wounds…such a silly argument saying it’s an inanimate object..