The Game Changers….

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  • The Game Changers….
  • Anyone watched it?. Impressive.

    Lots to think about, for me anyway.

    hols2
    Member

    How can you tell if someone’s a vegan?

    They make a documentary about it and insist that you watch it.

    kiwicraig
    Member

    Watched it a few weeks ago on Vimeo (didn’t realise it was coming to Netflix for free!). The science looks very dubious in places, especially those murky blood tests but plenty to think about and I’ve not eaten meat since watching it.

    It was more of a final push for me as I’d been thinking about going veggie for a while and that plus going on a climate change march with my little one and then going home to tuck into some beef didn’t really sit well with me when you look at the impact meat has on the environment.

    On the performance side, it came across almost as if “you too can be this awesome if you don’t eat meat” rather than “actually this takes a shit load of training and if you watch what you eat you can perform at the same level without meat”.

    Other lols: The Gladiators were veggies and the whole dental records thing.

    Premier Icon djflexure
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    More erections was the clincher for me

    Premier Icon dawson
    Subscriber

    How can you tell if someone’s a vegan?

    They make a documentary about it and insist that you watch it.

    +1

    My other half is vegan and was very keen for me (meat eater) to watch it – I declined.

    going home to tuck into some beef didn’t really sit well with me when you look at the impact meat has on the environment.

    Aye, the whole 2400l of water required to make 1 burger pattie is horrific, really.

    And no one was insisting that you watching anything Hols, nor am I a vegan.

    nickewen
    Member

    Just finished watching it now. I thought it was really thought provoking. When I read the above post I thought it was 2400ml not 2400l!! Mind. Blown. Thought the ex sniper helping the rangers was class.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    2400l of water isn’t a lot if you have it.

    Many arguments for veganism aren’t against eating meat, they are against inappropriate, inhumane and environmentally unfriendly practices.

    trailwagger
    Member

    I watched this last night…. what a load of bollocks!

    No-one mentions that James Cameron owns a vegan protein company, and nearly every person in the film has a vested financial interest in vegan companies. Oh, and why do all the tests and sudo science involve big macs as examples of meat protein?

    5thElefant
    Member

    Aye, the whole 2400l of water required to make 1 burger pattie is horrific, really.

    A net of zero water is used.

    I’d Imagine a net wouldn’t hold much water.

    No-one mentions that James Cameron owns a vegan protein company

    Pretty much the same as all those folks that have been telling us for years that we need meat protein I’d imagine, industry bods?.

    As I said, I’m not vegan, I do try to eat less meat these days, particularly red, just like to be open minded and thought I’d pass this on.

    YMMV.

    There’s a lot more scientific research in Forks over knives, also on Netflix.

    A bit American as well though…..

    Premier Icon nickc
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    No-one mentions that James Cameron owns a vegan protein company

    Do you think that one documentary on a paid for telly service is the same as the political and marketing influence that the meat & dairy industry have had post war telling you that eating animal protein is healthy and necessary?

    And if you think that vested interest should be challenged (and clearly you do; see your comment above) Do you then think that those vested interests of the meat and diary industry can be challenged?

    hols2
    Member

    Pretty much the same as all those folks that have been telling us for years that we need meat protein I’d imagine, industry bods?.

    IME, nutritionists who have no ideological or financial stake in either side of the debate say that meat and fish are good sources of protein plus other nutrients, if eaten as part of a well-balanced diet. It’s not the only way, but going to a purely plant based diet is going to be much more difficult than a well-balanced omnivorous diet.

    Premier Icon chakaping
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    Watched most of it and kept an open mind, genuinely interested in the potential benefits.

    It seems a bit light on detail but it made some interesting points, worthy of further investigation.

    I suspect it’s something I’d need to try out myself for a month or so and see how it went, but I’m very attached to eggs and oily fish so it would present some big lifestyle challenges for me.

    Most notably, what the heck do I put in my sandwiches? Do I even have sandwiches any more?

    Edit – and yes I did feel there was an agenda at work and selective presentation of facts, but I don’t think the film was pretending otherwise.

    Premier Icon nickc
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    but going to a purely plant based diet is going to be much more difficult than a well-balanced omnivorous diet.

    If you’re going to argue the toss on a website about the nutritional value of various diets, you could do worse than have a passing knowledge of what it is you’re talking about.

    trailwagger
    Member

    Do you think that one documentary on a paid for telly service is the same as the political and marketing influence that the meat & dairy industry have had post war telling you that eating animal protein is healthy and necessary?
    And if you think that vested interest should be challenged (and clearly you do; see your comment above) Do you then think that those vested interests of the meat and diary industry can be challenged?

    All I am pointing out is that the documentary is biased, not a balanced view and claims that published articles are scientific studies. One of the “studies” that the documentary is based on had a test group of 7! Yes that right 7 subjects.

    read more here if you like
    https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a29067926/the-game-changers-movie-fact-check/

    I watched it, definitely thought provoking. Arnie probably spoke the most sense in it.

    The whole bit about the vegan diet propelling people to sporting success was spurious IMO.

    Scott Jurek “100% it’s the vegan diet that fuelled me for this success” well duh, you’re vegan it’s the only fuel you’re using. But said in a way like it was pivotal.

    If you’re looking into it from the sporting angle read “The Endurance Diet” by Matt Fitzgerald and accept that whilst it’s possible to be a decent athlete on a vegan diet, the elite tend to eat everything.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
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    Watched it on my morning flight. Pretty crap. Some of the athlete examples used were laughably bad.

    Diaz didn’t beat McGregor because he was vegan
    Carl Lewis set his records when he was 30 because he was roided up to the max
    The strongman guy is an absolute nobody at world level

    The tests they were doing with the food were laughably bad too. The bit with the burritos, and attributing the clarity of the plasma purely as a beans vs meat argument, despite the multiple other ingredients in the burrito.

    The bit at the start where he talked about the “misconception” that people needed meat for energy. Who the hell thinks that?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    No-one mentions that James Cameron owns a vegan protein company, and nearly every person in the film has a vested financial interest in vegan companies.

    Not necessarily suspicious. If you were rich, and believed in the vegan idea, you’d want to invest in making it successful surely? He’s putting his money where his mouth is. Can’t fault that (possibly).

    Premier Icon kayak23
    Subscriber

    The bit at the start where he talked about the “misconception” that people needed meat for energy. Who the hell thinks that?

    In my experience, most people. The running joke is always of gaunt, slow and weak vegans isn’t it?.I’ve certainly seen the familiar joke trotted out on here anyway.

    I’ve had countless people ask me where do I get my protein from, over the years, and I’m veggie, not vegan.

    Watched it last night and liked it. The predictable reaction is for people to pick everything apart to try to debunk the message, but hey, it was refreshing to watch some plant-based propaganda anyway!

    . Oh, and why do all the tests and sudo science involve big macs as examples of meat protein?

    My guess is that Big Macs are a good representation of the meat that the majority of people eat. Obviously not Stw meat eaters who only enjoy artisan, hand-killed, daily-massaged, San Pellegrino-fed beef 😉 Plus don’t McDonalds claim their beef is 100% cow and awesome these days? (I’m a bit out of the loop)

    Anyway, enjoyed it and has given us a few things to think about. Will certainly be moving in that direction.

    hols2
    Member

    My guess is that Big Macs are a good representation of the meat that the majority of people eat.

    I doubt that. McDonalds is a globally recognized brand that produces products that are deliberately cheap and fairly bland so they are tolerable to most people without being particularly good (apart from their fries, which are excellent). Being a huge global corporation makes them easy to dislike, so they are a great poster child for anti-meat and anti-corporate crusaders. It really doesn’t matter whether a burger comes from McDs or a boutique burger place, the nutritional content will be pretty similar – they have a meat patty in a bun, with a tiny bit of lettuce, tomato, cheese, etc added. Having a burger and chips once a week is fine if you are eating a well-balanced diet. Eating it every day (or every meal) is not fine, regardless of whether it comes from McDs or a five-star restaurant.

    Plus don’t McDonalds claim their beef is 100% cow and awesome these days?

    I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. McDonalds are a professionally managed corporation, with everything checked off by lawyers to avoid lawsuits. If they say their patties are beef, that means they come from a cow and meet the local legal requirements for beef because they know that anti-corporate protesters will be constantly checking to find any avenue for a lawsuit. Same goes for any large business selling beef. Of course, it’s possible that horse meat or something else is sneaked into the food chain and sold as beef, but this is a universal problem. Large corporations like McDonalds have a lot more resources to check this than small ones, so I think you’d be much less likely to get contaminated food at McDs than on average. That doesn’t mean their food tastes great or is healthy, just that you will get what you pay for when you go there.

    I guess they hold up a big mac as an example as it’s a really well known ubiquitous symbol of bland tastelessness, and any vegan food is gonna taste better, really. 🙂

    hols2
    Member

    any vegan food is gonna taste better, really

    I like cooking and enjoy vegetables, but one of the things about meat, butter, cheese, etc. is that it is really easy to make it taste ok. With meat, you just have to put some salt on it and brown the surface and it’s tasty. Veggies take a bit more effort generally, IME. Not saying they can’t be tasty, but meat is easier if you’re lazy.

    The problem for me with McDs is that their sauce is very bland and they overcook the food (most likely to prevent food poisoning). With a bit of spice in the patty and a spicier sauce, I think they would be much better. But, if they made a burger that I liked, they’d probably lose 90% of their customers, so blandness is profitable for them.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Having a burger and chips once a week is fine if you are eating a well-balanced diet.

    I would disagree, I’d say that a McD is probably fine once a month if the rest of your diet is good, but let’s not forget MaccyD is junk food, I don’t think eating junk every week is going to be OK for most people

    ash01
    Member

    I really enjoyed it.

    I’ve seen many of the Vegan documentaries over the years and while they have been decent its nice to have athletes speaking out about their experience of being plant based and the effects on energy levels and performance.

    Aside from the whole protein, carbs, cholesterol, cruetly arguments, just listen to what they say…..Increased energy, performance and recovery from training and injury.

    Taking those points alone its worth a go for 6 months and with Veganuary on the horizon, give it a go!

    Ash

    hols2
    Member

    I don’t think eating junk every week is going to be OK for most people

    It’s a bread bun, a beef patty, maybe some cheese, tomato, sauce, tiny bit of lettuce, some fried potatoes, and a fair bit of salt. I don’t really see how it’s worse than bacon and eggs and toast for breakfast, a roast dinner, etc. Not great for every meal, but once a week is not going to be a problem if you eat plenty of vegetables and healthy things most days.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    It’s a bread bun, a beef patty, maybe some cheese, tomato, sauce, tiny bit of lettuce, some fried potatoes, and a fair bit of salt

    well, it depends on what you’re ordering I guess, a regular burger and regular fries is one thing, a double quarter pounder with cheese, supersized fries and a mcflurry is something else entirely, no?

    From their own nutrition website

    burger medium fries is 25g fat, 7g sugar, 587 kcal

    double quarter w cheese large fries and mcflurry is 79g fat, 58g sugar, 1558 kcal

    Given that most folk aren’t going to MaccyD’s a for a regular burger and fries, I still think once a month is better than once a week.

    steve_b77
    Member

    well, it depends on what you’re ordering I guess, a regular burger and regular fries is one thing, a double quarter pounder with cheese, supersized fries and a mcflurry is something else entirely, no?

    Sure is, but as part of a balanced diet, regular exercise and a decent way of life, a Maccy’s a week ain’t gonna kill you. Oh yeah, they haven’t done supersized anything in the UK for nearly 15 years.

    How can you tell if someone’s a vegan?

    They make a documentary about it and insist that you watch it.

    I suppose the same goes for cyclists, petrolheads, steakhouse, hunters, bodybuilders, fast-food addicts, people who like sex, etc. Stereotypes are great aren’t they?

    I like sci fi and very keen my other half watched the original Blade Runner

    My parents like pork sausages and are always very keen that the rest of the family admire and eat their sausage rolls

    My friend has an aggressive hardtail (😳) and is always very keen that everyone know’s it’s better than the FS in every way.

    Anecdote The only actual real-life run-in we’ve ever had with actual vocal food-nazis has been a local red-blooded faced porklord who got upset at my wife for graciously refusing to try the vendor’s sample sausage at the local farmer’s market.

    Vendor: Try this one ma’am
    She: oh that’s ok it’s for my husband
    Vendor: (mock hurt) oh, not good enough for you then?
    She: No, (smiling) it’s just that I don’t eat meat. I’m sure they’re very nice…’
    Porklord behind: ‘HERE WE GO..OH, HERE WE GO, YOU’RE ONE OF THOSE…’ (he looks around for on-hand support to help burn the witch, his wife helped with tutting and headshaking)

    I felt bad for her when she related this, we’d just moved into the area. They also had a little pop at her for being ‘foreign’ as well as veggie. Lovely Britain. Another stereotype.

    I’m pretty sure Porklord later reported her to his chums as ‘another bloody vegan, telling everyone about it’

    hols2
    Member

    a double quarter pounder with cheese, supersized fries and a mcflurry is something else entirely, no?

    So is roast pork with gravy and roast veggies soaked with lard, followed by chocolate gateau with icecream. Not something you should be eating every day, but not really that unusual for most people either. Just because people cook at home or eat at a good restaurant doesn’t mean that their diet is actually any better than McDs.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Oh yeah, they haven’t done supersized anything in the UK for nearly 15 years.

    Probs about the last time I went in a McDonalds

    pseudoscience = stuff masquerading as, or claiming a scientific basis that doesn’t actually exist. (all alternative medicine, homeopathy, chiropractic, reflexology, herbalism, dowsing, spiritualism etc. etc.)

    sudo science = linux command demanding that you do some science immediately with the authority of the root user.

    On reflection, being able to say “sudo Science!” to purveyors of the above to force them to produce some scientifically valid evidence might be a useful superpower.

    steamtb
    Member

    A whole / real food vegetarian or vegan diet, that is well planned, can be a part of a healthy lifestyle and certainly fits well into a lot of people’s lives.

    However, from a fact or evidence perspective that movie is pretty shocking. It’s not hard to do the research for most of the “facts” they give; just some of the more outrageous ones should give you pause for thought. Quite a few Docs and Scientists have already given some comment on it.

    On the plus side, there has been some great research recently in nutrition, following best practice guidelines, that actually gives some unmolested data in a world of nutrition hysteria.

    I’m LCHF but thats not the only way. Maybe just eat real food (vegan or otherwise), not too many carbs and don’t become insulin resistant if you can help it.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    for most of the “facts” they give; just some of the more outrageous ones should give you pause for thought

    Such as?

    steamtb
    Member

    Strength increases, mortality and morbidity data, the brain and glucose, the environmental impact (the comparisons aren’t the same), the human digestive system and evolution (Authors like Tim Noakes have written extensively about this) etc etc… pick some facts and look at the papers they use. Might be worth looking at what’s happened over the past few years to lots of the athletes they utilised too?

    A number of papers addressing these issues factually have even hit the news recently including the stuff from Oxford University looking at UK emissions from cattle (zero sum game). Papers like this:

    https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2752328/unprocessed-red-meat-processed-meat-consumption-dietary-guideline-recommendations-from

    Give you a somewhat different view? Read the full paper and look at all cause mortality amongst other things. More constructively, a pretty good article on healthy vegan diets:

    https://www.noted.co.nz/health/health-nutrition/vegan-diets-what-you-need-to-know-about-doing-it-right

    Although I may not be his biggest fan, Dr Baker chats about the film on YouTube:

    If you are interest in health and metabolic research, you can’t go far wrong with people like Dr Malcolm Kendrick (UK GP amongst other things) and outstanding metabolic scientists like Dr Ben Bikman who do discuss vegan diets, although that isn’t the focus so you need to be interested in research and above all, real data.

    steamtb
    Member

    More commentary if anyone wants it:

    Game Changers Movie Review: Fact vs. Fiction

    I’m sure either Zoe Harcombe or Aseem Malhotra will do a comprehensive research review about it at some point.

    Again, just for clarity, I don’t think there is anything wrong with eating real food, in a considered diet, vegan or otherwise! 🙂

    number18
    Member

    I haven’t really thought this stream of consciousness through, but…

    ‘The Game Changers’ may have been flawed in the way it framed its claims but it has definitely provoked a lot of thought it me and I never believed I’d consider veganism.

    Since reading Born to Run I have avoided doing any research in to ‘plant based’ diets as I thought I would find something I didn’t want to hear! I don’t want to be vegan and if I really ask myself what are the reasons why then it’s probably a combination of misconceptions around being ‘plant-based’ and even cognitive dissonance on my part, and obviously the fact I like eating meat and just about any plant only meal other than a vegetable curry just sounds horrendous to me (at this stage). I know this is daft but there you go, I can’t be the only one that feels like this.

    I prefer to look at the fuel my body needs and find justification that way. You wouldn’t fuel a diesel car with crisps (or would you?); what fuel does my body need? If I can research that subject and the answer is plants then I will accept it. If my body needs to be fueled by slaughtered animals then I’m fine with that, if that is most appropriate fuel then I’m ok with it.

    The problem is knowing who to trust; everyone seems to have an agenda. Or at the very least how do you know who has an agenda and who doesn’t?

    I think I will try to reduce my meat intake, maybe having a number of consecutive meat free days during the week and see how I feel. I think increasing the amount of vegetables I eat and reducing the amount of meat I eat is probably the simple answer.

    kerley
    Member

    what fuel does my body need? If I can research that subject and the answer is plants then I will accept it. If my body needs to be fueled by slaughtered animals then I’m fine with that, if that is most appropriate fuel then I’m ok with it.

    Carry on with the research but it is very clear that your body can be fueled without eating meat so nobody NEEDS to eat meat. However, most people WANT to eat meat and that is the hard bit to get over. People will make excuses to justify it, will slag off vegans and so on but ultimately people are eating meat as they enjoy it.

    lambchop
    Member

    On the flip side ‘The Magic Pill’ movie also on Netflix looks at the health benefits of a Keto diet. Having tried Veganism (only for 7 weeks) and Keto (now on my twelfth week) I know which way of eating I prefer. Feel totally energised on Keto and have lost 1.5 stone. I gained weight on a plant based diet.

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