Orange Four owner here. Always loved a single pivot for some reason (had a MK2 and a MK4 Heckler and a Bullit in the past).

The four ticked all the boxes when i was demo’ing in 2016, had the Four since then and no failures of the frame or the (custom) build, not that that is anything special. I would expect and bike to last under the bimblecore riding that i do!

I would recommend anybody to try one if they can, they are different to another bike and worth a try, you might like it! not wrong or inferior, just different. I’ve not seen or heard of a broken Orange through my LBS, so i am always a little skeptical of the ‘oh they always break’ reports, not saying they dont happen but i’d be really interested to hear some context.

As for cost, only the person buying can square that one, what it’s worth to them. It was for me when i was buying because it gave me what i wanted from a bike at the time. Would i buy one again? Possibly, but it wouldn’t be the cost that was the critical factor.

I’ve not seen or heard of a broken Orange through my LBS

Pretty sure an Orange vendor ain’t gonna shout about it, but it definitely is an issue.

I have owned two 5 pros and still have my second.

It’s medium 26” which last year I converted to 1 x 11 and chucked on a dropper post.

It’s a joy to ride and I have to say owning them/it have always felt “over bikes”

That has more to do with my inabilities than the bike.

I’m in the market for another FS next year and will not be returning to Orange.

Why… I think they are now hugely over priced with many other brands such as Bird and Sonder (I have recently bought a Sonder Camino) presenting better value for money as well as perhaps more dynamic.

I love the idea of a bloke called Terry welding up second hand filing cabinets and making something beautiful, I just can’t justify an additional 2k for the privilege.

Stage 4 Evo frame (stock colour, Fox Float DPS Performance) £2,200

Cotic Flaremax UK release (RS delux select shock, 2 colour options) £2099. CC DB air IL for £100 upgrade.

I’d sat that quite even. Cotic also has Taiwan made frames, and offers full bikes for much less than 4K.

I do appreciate that Orange sell via proper shops though. I still really like my local and they need bike sales. So it’s no surprise that Bird etc smash them for pricing (build location + direct). The Santa Cruz example is interesting for showroom sales. I can see the attraction of a Santa Cruz as I can turn on the tv and see someone winning a downhill race on them. DH for me is the main sport I follow, again orange had their heyday, but even the old orange pros are on Santa Cruz bikes these days!

When I lived in Hebden Bridge, every other bike seemed to be an Orange. Granted they are built just 6 miles away, and there’s a couple of dealers nearby, but still; massively popular, and there are some pretty handy riders choosing them as well. Personally, never ridden one Never seen much evidence of the cracking that seems to be the internet theme when talking about them either, I think once that a reputation gets pinned to a manufacturer, it’s pretty hard to shake off.

I think that they are one of the best bikes for pride of ownership. I always looked back at my 5 and told people about it.

The issue is recently everyone i know that ahs a new one has had it crack. This has basically put most people off the second hand frame route that orange was soo good for.

Like I said, I do believe it happens, but I would like some context. The ‘implied’ issue is that they break JRA. I’m sure that isn’t the case as of the people who I do know who ride Orange’s give them some real stick, but I’d like to know just how they fail and for what reason. Would another bike brand have the same failure due to the same circumstance?
Unfortunately we’ll never truly know, cos if you’re on an Orange you cant be on another bike!

Thinking about my reply earlier (and in reference to the Santa Cruz comparison) the one thing I don’t like is their warranty. the SC lifetime warranty would sway the argument for me now, all other things (ride, cost, spec, fun etc.) being equal.

I think that may be where they are losing out now, for such a premium (costing) product, there warranty is relatively stingy.

Mate had one that cracked and they wouldn’t sort, expensive & pretty ugly(opinion). Wouldn’t even cross my mind when looking for a bike tbh.

I would recommend anybody to try one if they can, they are different to another bike and worth a try, you might like it! not wrong or inferior, just different.

This +1

I remember demoing a 5 and an st4 at Guisbrough and the st4 was just awfull. The 5 on the other hand was just brilliant. It’s different to more modern and composed setups that don’t bob, but once you get dialled into it there’s just so much grip.

Cost wise… I think you have to look at it against things like custom Ti road bikes as the closest comparable made in the UK, labour intensive framebuilding process.

It’s not 7 tubes stuck together on a Taiwanese production line. Doesnt nesicerily make it better, but then neither is a Ti road bike costing twice as much as the lightest/stiffest/most aero carbon one off the shelf.

Nice high quality bikes but as mentioned they are expensive.

Bird aren’t really the same quality of finish, but are a much lower price point.

Would I buy one? Yes. Could I afford one? No.

I would recommend anybody to try one if they can, they are different to another bike and worth a try, you might like it! not wrong or inferior, just different.

I remember demoing a 5 and an st4 at Guisbrough and the st4 was just awfull

And I preferred the ST4 over the 5.

Good to have choice and different riding styles / expectations / preferences.

I like the look of them, the Stage 6 looks great.

But compare and contrast a £4700 Stage 6 with a £2800 Whyte T-160. You can even have a base model Santa Cruz for just over £3k.

So single pivot aluminium frame with a reputation for cracking and a massive price premium over the competition?

Shut up and take my money.

I had a P7 back in the 90s and loved it…I’ve never really liked the look of their full suspension bikes and I’m aware that is a personal thing. Even back in the 90s they weren’t ‘cheap’. I’ve always considered Orange and Santa Cruz to be very overpriced – they are popular and they make good bikes, but they are overpriced (but due to demand, they can charge those prices as people are happy to pay it) – but I suspect I’m not in any of their target audiences so it isn’t going to bother them that I’ve not bought a bike from them.

I suspect the Orange single pivot design is now considered properly old-school and there isn’t much you can do with the way it works, but it has worked well for them. I know a couple of people who have them and they rave about how great they are, so clearly for some people, they work perfectly well. If they do need a bearing change yearly then that suggests the bikes are being well used so no real issue with that – probably a benefit given how expensive bearings are as you only need to change 2 and those appear to be a pretty standard size of bearing as well.

I’ve never ridden an Orange full suspension bike, but I suspect it wouldn’t take much time to adjust to how that rode, just as you adjust to how any new bike rides.

The desire to own one is strong for many folk, the price, however, seems to put many people off and I think since they got bought over (I think I read that right, a few years back they got bought over by the guy who did the frame builds?), the marketing seems to have reduced somewhat so maybe it is just a lack of exposure to the market that has fewer people riding them nowadays.

I did look at an Orange frame when i was hunting for anything to buy/ride recently. Once i saw the prices, my hunt went elsewhere.

I see a few people say they suffer from brake jack. Is there a reason why Oranges do and other single pivot bikes, say a Starling Murmur dont? (never seen a mention of it in Murmur reviews).

I think you have to look at it against things like custom Ti road bikes as the closest comparable made in the UK, labour intensive framebuilding process.

They seemed content to stick with a designed that was outdated in 2010, but people seemed to like them so live and let live and all that. It’s now a decade later and nothing has changed.

To me it just seems like you get a worse frame, for more money and the only upside is that it’s made by some sweary Northerners. If you paraphrase Bontrager, ‘Good value, UK made, good performance. Pick two’. Except you only get to pick one. I’m not buying.

I see a few people say they suffer from brake jack. Is there a reason why Oranges do and other single pivot bikes, say a Starling Murmur dont? (never seen a mention of it in Murmur reviews).

I’m not exactly what people mean by ‘brake jack’ but this is how I tried to explain it to a mate…

There’s no pivots on the rear end of an Orange. When you compress the suspension the swingarm can only rotate around the axle on the hub bearings. So the brake caliper also rotates around the rotor. When you lock the rear brake the caliper/swingarm can’t rotate around the axle. It’ll still compress but it’s not a fluid movement.

On the trail this means that when you’re feathering the rear brake on a rough trail the rear wheel starts to hammer the bumps, giving you a rough ride and reducing grip. That’s probably why you hear people saying that the rear suspension and rear brake can’t work at the same time.

They feel fine with no brakes and plenty of people go very fast on them. Assuming there’s no sub optimal rear shock settings or weird falling rate spring curve which there definitely is on some people’s bikes. See the complaints about bottoming out on big hits despite running correct pressure/sag etc.

Never ridden a Starling. I always thought they looked like steel Orange’s.

I see a few people say they suffer from brake jack. Is there a reason why Oranges do and other single pivot bikes, say a Starling Murmur dont? (never seen a mention of it in Murmur reviews).

No, that was mostly bullshit.

Single pivots inherently brake SQUAT not jack.

To make it easy to understand imagine locking thr wheel up (anything less thsn that is just the same effect).

When you apply the brake you effectively lock the wheel and swingarm together as one unit. Draw an imaginary line from the pivot to the tyres contact patch (the point at which any external force is being applied to the lever when the wheel is locked and the hub isn’t free to rotate). If the braking force is horizontal, then the resultant movement is vertical as the swingarm/wheel cant get longer. So the rear suspension squats down under braking. If you dont brake hard enough to lock up the same thing happens, it’s just harder to visualise.

Can be a good thing as the last thing you want is the rear suspension jacking up under braking as that just throws your weight forwards.

I don’t know how they’re doing business-wise, they seem to have a devote fan base and I’m sure their sales are fine, especially at the moment.

I can only comment on myself, It’s one of those brands that I’ve thought about lots of times when looking for a new bike, but I’ve never really found a reason to actually buy one. I’ve test rode two I think, they were never that special to me.

For me I think their last USP is the whole ‘Made in Britain’ thing, But I’m not very patriotic and I believe in globalisation.

Reviews are generally kind to glowing about how they ride, but if performance is the be all and end all for you, you can go faster for less.

Ease of maintenance, yeah I get that, it’s rarely the first thing on my mind when I’m picking a bike, bit defeatist, but Bird will sell you an equivalent spec bike for roughly half the price that ‘optimised’ for UK Conditions, and barring the **** awful chain/seat stay pivot bearings, they are easy enough to maintain, and as far as performance goes, they’re really, really fast, at least when someone else is riding them.

Pride of ownership / buzz, whatever you want to call it, I guess you either like the look or don’t, the newer ones look better to me eye, but they’re still very Orange, the rest of that all comes from Social Media presence and racing – who’s “on” Orange these days? They haven’t had a DH WC team for years, there’s no XC team, and it’s great they’re starting an EWS team, but I don’t know any of the riders.

thanks for the explanation.

So do all single pivots do this? Or is it exclusive to Oranges, due to their pivot placement etc?

I think all single pivots to do a greater or lesser degree…but Oranges seem to have it stuck to them like it is only them.

What DickBarton said, single pivot placement cant really affect it unless you built something really outlandish.

If you look at 4-bar designs with the brake on the seatstay (or maestro/vpp where the whole rear triangle rotates arround itself). Then the whole rear triangle (or seatstay) can be made to rotate more than a single pivot swingarm would. This produces more brake squat. So in a way you could argue orange have more brake jack than some other brands, they’re just all less than zero.

Lawill designs were the only ones with actual brake jack as the rear bar doesn’t rotate.

Brake squat, extension under power and a slight ‘lockout’ under power over chattery terrain are all characteristics of the single pivot bikes i’ve had. Careful pivot placement and a well tuned shock compensate and my Four (being the most up-to-date) is the best compromise i’ve ridden and, at the time, was the most fun bike of the group i test rode (another being an Orange Five, just a bit too leggy).

But! The VPP bike i had was compromised, so was the FSR i had and the ABP link tuned single pivot, just in different ways.

All suspension designs have different characteristics and compromises, but a lot of negative opinion of the simple single pivot design does seem to be heaped on Orange. I never understood how an Orange Five and a Santa Cruz Heckler (effectively the same bike at the time) could receive such wildly differing opinions.
How much of it is just to justify the complexity of a multi link suspension design from another manufacturer?

FWIW, all the single pivots i’ve had/ridden have been poppy, active and engaging to ride, the feedback from the back wheel is one of the characteristics i really like from my Four. In my (limited) experience, the more linkages are attached to the back end of a bike to suspend the back wheel, the less lively the bike feels overall.

I never understood how an Orange Five and a Santa Cruz Heckler (effectively the same bike at the time) could receive such wildly differing opinions.

Maybe because a Heckler is just one bike in a range and you can choose it if you really like it. Orange have pinned their entire identity on it. If it’s not for you, you have to discount the entire brand.

FWIW, all the single pivots i’ve had/ridden have been poppy, active and engaging to ride, the feedback from the back wheel is one of the characteristics i really like from my Four.

I’ll agree with this. Some of the Orange’s I’ve ridden feel like big DJ bikes. The last Five I borrowed had an X2 shock and absolutely fired out of berms and launched off every lip in sight when other bikes feel glued to the ground. It was a blast but not want I want from my every day bike. I could do the same on a hardtail for 80% less money.

Think it depends what you’re used to riding. About 5 years ago I got my first single pivot (not Orange). Previously owned Horst Link, Maestro, Split Pivot, VPP, DW Link. Straight away it felt like the suspension stopped working when braking at the same time. Felt really odd at the time, but after a while I just stopped noticing it. Probably a bigger issue with more travel. What I didn’t stop noticing was the pedal kickback pulling back on the cranks over every little bump.

sharkattack
Free Member
I never understood how an Orange Five and a Santa Cruz Heckler (effectively the same bike at the time) could receive such wildly differing opinions.

Maybe because a Heckler is just one bike in a range and you can choose it if you really like it. Orange have pinned their entire identity on it. If it’s not for you, you have to discount the entire brand.

Nope. At the time, SC had either a Heckler or a Superlight, both single pivots. Even when the VPP stuff came along, there was a clear divide of opinion between the two brands (and i think Orange had the ST4, linkage driven shock).

sneaky edit: on the flip side, Orange have had a healthy hardtail lineup for years, plenty of choice there.

Was it not just down to popularity at the time? Orange were massively popular and Santa Cruz were proving popular but not as common (yet). I suspect the brake jack stuff was being lumped at single pivots but as Orange was the most common at the time, it then became an Orange issue and still remains as such.

I suspect if it had been Santa Cruz that was so common and popular then it would be tarnishing whichever model they had and we’d be immediately thinking of brake jack as a bad thing on those bikes.

As said, Orange do seem to only have this 1 full suspension design in their catalogue – a few models but all essentially the same thing. Not always a bad thing but when it comes to a perceived negative, then it is an issue as it impacts the whole full suspension range they offer.

As said, Orange do seem to only have this 1 full suspension design in their catalogue – a few models but all essentially the same thing. Not always a bad thing but when it comes to a perceived negative, then it is an issue as it impacts the whole full suspension range they offer.

I cant think of many brands that have more than one suspension design in their range. Santa Cruz (VPP), Cotic (dropLink), Giant, Stanton etc all have the same basic design or concept, with variations in travel for each model, same as Orange do.
Off the top of my head I can only think of Trek and Specialized who have two or more suspension designs.

I think it is down to perception though, with a bit of brand advertising (or lack of) thrown in.

Back in the good old days (not THAT long ago) you had the likes of the Animal Orange team, Steve Peat, Minnaar and Missy on the WC circuit riding their bikes and achieving success. Those were the days when you couldn’t move for a Five on the trail/in the carpark and yet, arguably, the time when the Five was the least accomplished it has ever been technically being heavy, poor shock performance and the pivot point hovering in the compromise position between 3 or 2 chainring ‘best fit’.

Discounting the reported failures for a minute, nowadays the single pivot design has never worked so well yet there is a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the brand. On the other side of the coin, you now cant move for Santa Cruz bikes in the carpark, why? The brand image of SC is one of the best in the business (IMO), all bases covered, race team, trials rider, big days out in the country (not to mention legacy support from the biggest name in UK MTB history, Peaty). are the SC bikes better $ for $ against Specialized or Trek (for example)?

UK brands as a whole have a difficult line to tread in advertising/exposure. Try too hard and bombard people with big flash edits, flashy mag adverts etc. then they run the risk of a: potentialy losing a lot of money on advertising costs and b: coming across a bit needy and ‘big multi national corporation’, selling out their ‘Britishness’ for want of a better phrase.

Still loving ours. In particular, my Stage 4 is my favourite bike ever.

Been riding Oranges for so long, I probably don’t have enough experience of other suspension designs to make a fair comparison, but we’ve always been happy with the way they’ve ridden. When you’re guiding on them in Alps all summer, the bomber reliability is a big plus.

With regards to the cracking comments – between us, we’ve owned at least 20 Orange full-sussers over the past 14 or 15 years. A variety of Alpine 160s / 6s, Alpine Fives, Stage 6’s, Segments, 4’s and Stage 4’s. The only one which has ever cracked was my first generation Alpine 160, which had the early issue of cracking between two weld breather holes on the swingarm. Sorted under warranty with no hassles and never an issue on later models. Even Pat’s infamous bright pink Alpine 160 which he spent 4 summers guiding on never cracked. He even sold it on and it’s still doing good service for someone else. These are bikes getting hammered on lift-accessed Alpine trails all day, every day, all summer long. No problems whatsoever.

Just hope when the Brexit dust settles that we can keep getting them shipped into Europe at a competitive price.

As a thought – has the popularity of water bottles /pack less dealt a blow to them?

I reckon there’s more to this than might meet the eye. Sounds trivial on the face of it, but at least where I ride it’s rare these days to see a rider with a pack. All else being equal, if you’re on the fence then the lack of bottle-bosses v.s. another frame with bosses might make the choice for you.

As a relatively new rider it has always seemed to me as though owning an Orange might be some kind of rite-of-passage for a UK MTBist, and the one I’ve had a go on (Stage 4 IIRC, a couple of years ago) was properly good fun.

Were I in the market for a new FS, I’d totally consider one, but tbh for the money I’d probably end up getting a Cotic.

I agree with Fettlin – marketing is the main reason people buy bikes.

Very few of us have a back to back test session of various bikes in their local woods. We read the reviews in the mags with the tainted view that comes from seeing our favourite rider using the bike. Or a load of marketing we subconsciously absorb via magazines, our phone or laptop.

If you see big names riding the bike you see the marketing with a positive view, this make it easy to see them as a potential purchase when looking for a new bike.

When was the last time we saw anyone of note riding an Orange ?

Good marketing will also suffocate any internet claims (true or false) about things like frame cracks etc.

marketing is the main reason people buy bikes.

Really? Surely it’s mostly dictated by what’s available nearby?

When was the last time we saw anyone of note riding an Orange ?

And yet, Orange are selling everything they make at sky high prices… so..?

Well i’ll be building a new one up soon so look forward to posting it in here lol

Always loved the look of them and just decided to scratch the itch. Can’t wait.

molgrips – yes, but the LBS has to market (sell them) to you. They have to be well presented in the shop, the staff have to praise them and be knowledgeable about them, they have to have them in the right size, colour and offer a test ride and so on. So that’s down to the company, which in this case may be spending less on marketing.

Perhaps they can make a good living selling everything they have without too much marketing. If they are owned by one chap he wont have to dance to someone else’s tune and not have to keep increasing turnover every year. That’s often the cause of crap marketing, the owner (bank / investor) demanding more turnover so it increases their share value.

And yet, Orange are selling everything they make at sky high prices… so..?

Are they? they might be selling every thing they make, but so is everybody else, and they are still the same price as they were before.
Current climate for selling bikes is an anomaly, i wouldn’t take much notice of it in this instance, second hand bikes of all brands are selling for a sky high price, so?

Orange sponsors Joe Barnes and his Hazzard Racing team and their video edits are usually good fun to watch.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-joe-barnes-tours-his-local-riding-spots-with-fergus-lamb.html

https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/stories/view/joe_barnes_and_hazzard_racing#:~:text=Orange%20Bikes%20are%20proud%20to,coming%20onboard%20from%20January%202019.

I did wonder if the current lineup is a sly marketing move: remove the Five from the range and push the Evo side of things, as in ‘look, we do make other bikes than a Five’.
Then in a season or so’s time, re-launch the Five to a great fanfare ‘the king is dead, long live the king!’ breathing new life into the model, many bikes sold off the old name reborn.

cynical/bit like they did with the P7/cynical.

P-Jay

For me I think their last USP is the whole ‘Made in Britain’ thing

That’s their only USP really. They’re not light, certainly not cheap, not well specced for the money. They don’t have a good reputation for quality, in fact I’d say they have the opposite. They are seen as being a bit unsophisticated and basic in terms of suspension. They build their bikes out of sheets of aluminium welded together, the result of which is a mass of welds that to a lot of eyes looks ugly and cheap, and it’s a manufacturing process that has no real benefits to it. They were for a time fairly forward thinking with geometry and wheelsize, but other brands have caught up. They don’t really do any marketing hat I’ve seen, other than that factory video which showed a poorly aligned frame being bent back into shape in a dirty workshop, which certainly didn’t inspire me to shell out for a frame. And from riding behind one that a friend owned briefly, the description “sounds like a skeleton masturbating in a biscuit tin” is accurate.

Not sure why anyone would buy one.

Really? Surely it’s mostly dictated by what’s available nearby?

That seems to vary by brand and location. There’s a few places where one brand absolutely dominates as a result of a good LBS, but it’s the exception not the rule. I’m thinking Pedal and Spoke in Surrey = Santa Cruz’s as far as the eye can see. BikeScene in Guisborough seemed to have the market for Orange 5’s sewn up at one point.

Other parts of the country, less of a link.