there is the thing that is bigger than the sum of its parts, and then there are the parts

yes all good points, but I dunno, you’d expect a deities church to be a bit more…unified. (my experience is a bit more than 1 vicar in 1 church btw, but yes still limited in the grand scheme)

Of course history has shown you’d be an idiot to expect it but as I think woppit said earlier, shirley an infallible god’s work/plan/communications would be somewhat easier to divine and more universally interpreted/implemented.

as I think woppit said earlier, shirley an infallible god’s work/plan/communications would be somewhat easier to divine and more universally interpreted/implemented.

Fair point. But then the religious philosopher would say that if it were, human will – which in itself an intrinsic good – would be much diminished, as our assent to God’s plan (or whatever you want to call it) would be more impelled than lovingly or humbly undertaken.

Fair point. But then the religious philosopher would say that if it were, human will – which in itself an intrinsic good – would be much diminished, as our assent to God’s plan (or whatever you want to call it) would be more impelled than lovingly or humbly undertaken

😆

ah the “god is perfect, we humans/free will **** it up” argument. While it’s certainly a valid point that humans are a crap design and we/some of us, could screw up just about anything given half a chance, sorry but it still sounds like a cop out.

This world of ours can be glorious and a lovely place to be, despite humans, other parts are horrible, and truly terrible things can happen to undeserving people anywhere, again despite humans. If I were an all powerful, all loving god this would bother me.

ah the “god is perfect, we humans/free will **** it up” argument. While it’s certainly a valid point that humans are a crap design and we/some of us, could screw up just about anything given half a chance, sorry but it still sounds like a cop out.

I don’t think you have read closely enough what I have said. Or you have, but I don’t understand what your response is addressing exactly.

As for 5thElephant… 🙄

the wide eyed innocent and the unquestioning seem to get the “this is god’s actual words” message

One of the Jewish articles I read said that there were four levels to read the Torah. The first one is what they would consider the children’s interpretation – face reading. Then each one is deeper til the fourth is where new profound insights are gained. Which is a nice subtle insult whilst getting ones point across 🙂

you’d expect a deities church to be a bit more…unified

Why? Churches are human, aren’t they?

sorry but it still sounds like a cop out

Cop out of what, exactly?

I don’t think you have read closely enough what I have said.

Maybe yeah. Sorry. TBH after I hit post and re-read it all my first thought was that you had edited your comment, think I must have skim read and mistaken your meaning – but then I got distracted and didn’t get to retract/change my post. I thought you were getting at the “god’s plan is perfect but due to free will (also part of the plan) and humans being weak (ditto) then the world is an unjust place” thing.

Cop out of what, exactly?

Q. why is god’s creation in such a mess?
A. Because humans.
Like I said I think I can see the point but it still sounds like an excuse rather than a believable fact (while even if true is completely unverifiable anyway).

<edit>Having reread that ^ I think I need some sleep, I’m not explaining things very well.

Which is a nice subtle insult whilst getting ones point across

Teaching maths to kids one way then telling them in more advanced studies that everything we taught you so far was wrong and this is how things are, is kinda understandable. I’m more concerned when the same method is used for religious indoctrination.

I’m more concerned when the same method is used for religious indoctrination.

Why?

Q. why is god’s creation in such a mess?
A. Because humans.

Don’t see a problem. You don’t know what God’s actual plan is, do you? Nor do the rest of us of course. For all you know God is an alien in a lab coat and our universe is his petri dish. Or he loves as his creation, but wants to see what we make of what we’ve given him. Otherwise he’d be a helicopter parent.

slowoldman – Member
I want to know what happened to all those old Gods with cool names and bad tempers. The Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Norse ones.

They all die once their lives expire due to impermanence then reborn somewhere else.

But some may have very long life span (minimum I think 3000 yr) if they have done plenty of good in previous lives, if they continue to cultivate good they get promoted to another realm (even better).

Some gods (not all) will instantly reborn in Hell if all their good deeds expire upon death because of the remaining bad deeds still part of them. Then they have to work their way up from hell again … the cycle continues until they understand the true nature of things.

So some of them will still be around chewkw? That’s nice, but I wonder what the “one true God” makes of that.

I’m more concerned when the same method is used for religious indoctrination.

Why?because people stopping their studies straight after gcse and going through the rest of life knowing how to work out the area of a plane shape but having no clue about abstract algebra is a bit different from stopping going to church (or going unthinkingly) and going through life thinking that the bible is the absolute word of god and having no clue about “well it’s complicated, it needs to be viewed….”

I don’t think it’s going to cause the downfall of mankind or anything but it does bother me.

stopping going to church (or going unthinkingly) and going through life thinking that the bible is the absolute word of god and having no clue about “well it’s complicated, it needs to be viewed….”

Well schooling is finite, but if you’re the kind of person who goes in for biblical literalism then you’re probably going to church every Sunday your whole life.

Which then puts your preacher in a powerful position, which is another interesting topic.

Not so much helicopter as absent parent. As discussed earlier plenty of faithful do have a bit of a pray for intervention now and again, so some would prefer a bit more hands on approach it would seem.

For all you know God is an alien in a lab coat and our universe is his petri dish.

Hmm think you may upset some believers with a lines like that. But you may be right, a mad scientist doing it for shits and giggles would certainly fit the evidence better than an all powerful all loving deity.

Which then puts your preacher in a powerful position,

doesn’t it just

which is another interesting topic.

interesting/sinister, potato/potato
🙂

Hmm think you may upset some believers with a lines like that. But you may be right, a mad scientist doing it for shits and giggles would certainly fit the evidence better than an all powerful all loving deity.

This.

interesting/sinister, potato/potato

Sinister is a sub-set of interesting.

Jeebus wants me for a mungbean

No he doesn’t.

What was nice about this interminable STW religion;argue! thread is that everyone was (reasonably) polite to each other, not too many teddies were chucked (it was more of a ‘I’m getting nowhere, I’m going to put my teddy back on the shelf where it belongs’ type affair) and I don’t think there was much post moderation or banning going on. Some well considered positions on both sides and I actually saw people concede the odd point (a teeny bit). Well done STW, you’ve changed!

My favourite post was Cougar’s ‘Shedesis 1:1’

Q. why is god’s creation in such a mess?
A. Because humans.

Not entirely.

1 John 5:19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

You don’t know what God’s actual plan is, do you? Nor do the rest of us of course.

Genesis 9:7 As for you, be fruitful and become many, and increase abundantly on the earth and multiply.

Genesis 9:7 As for you, be fruitful and become many, and increase abundantly on the earth and multiply.

So God’s plan has been completed then.

Can’t say that I’m particularly impressed.

Work in progress. Plus it’s been messed up because of the first scripture in my above post 🙂

Thread resurrection on the third day. Nice

🙂 Sorry, I was away for the weekend

Plus it’s been messed up because of the first scripture in my above post

Ah yes, the Devil is in the detail, always.

Amd ernie makes post 666