jfletch – I was an F1 race engineer in a previous life. They are very prone to aquaplaning when there is standing water around as explained very well by andyl above. Yes they can be driven extremely fast in the wet IF there is little or no standing water and hence low risk of aquaplaning. One time we were at Silverstone there was a sudden heavy downpour that caused standing water (actually more like a small stream) flowing across Becketts. The cars just spun off one after the other even when backing off massively.

Basically when it is wet enough to cause standing water on the track, the SC is out and the cars really have to concentrate on not falling off behind it. Wide tyres, low weight, low ride heights and massive power does not make for great aquaplaning protection!

So hamilton and alonso teammates at mclaren again? Or does it leave a seat for Alonso at Merc. Both options I’d like to see

LH to McLaren? Sorry I don’t believe it full stop. Based on their management/structure at the moment? That’d be a gamble of epic proportions. Would the Honda engine be better than a Merc. Yes Mclaren are customers of Merc but still- they aren’t exactly doing well with the rest of the car and…..the management turmoil.

So hamilton and alonso teammates at mclaren again?

Seems hard to believe. Merc are still on the up and I think that Hamilton has now shown himself to be the better driver of the two so they would be keen to keep him.
Rosberg looking like another decent driver being flattered by a very good car – but when it’s not going his way he reverts to [dirty] tactics.

Rosberg looking like another decent driver being flattered by a very good car – but when it’s not going his way he reverts to [dirty] tactics.

I had the misfortune of working with Rosberg for a couple of seasons (thankfully not as his race engineer). Arrogant little shit he was too. Not massively talented compared to some, but to be fair he does seem to have progressed and earned some respect from his peers.

Hamilton may be tempted by the prospect of being a certain No.1 driver (if they kept Magnussen). No hope of that in Mercedes.

And being in at the start of something again may be rewarding to him – he’s shown he has the patience to have an off year or two if the rewards are there.

Can’t see it happening though!

LH to McLaren? Sorry I don’t believe it full stop.

Me either. Its not called silly season for nothing though

Try driving a 2 tonne car round a corner at 120mph in the wet. Good luck.

You didn’t read what I wrote about cornering did you?

Just because a road is wet it doesnt mean you are going to aquaplane. As I already said the F1 car will corner faster than anything else due to a favourable grip V centrifugal force. But, if it hits an area of standing water it has more chance of aquaplaning than something that has a more favourable weight to tread footprint.

F1 cars are driven right on the cusp of losing grip. Closer than pretty much anything else and the cars are more capable of being driven so than any other car. Margins of error are tiny but that is why they are driven by the best drivers in the world and they do make it look easy because they are constantly reacting and correcting things to keep that car balanced on a knife edge. Sometimes they fall off as they push too much or make a mistake, sometimes the nature of the cars means they have no chance (such as aquaplaning).

richmtb – Member
LH to McLaren? Sorry I don’t believe it full stop.
Me either. Its not called silly season for nothing though

Are you American? (sigh).

Are you American? (sigh).

No. Are you Irish? (Are we just guessing nationalities or did you last post have a point?) (sigh)

I think the above is referring to ‘full stop’.

I’ve just read the links about LH – very odd. McLaren do seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment. Maybe LH is thinking if he can win this year and get another championship under his belt then go help McLaren build a car for 2016?

The real winner here will be Alonso if he gets the mercedes seat and i think it would a case of him having even more skills off the track than on it to be able to engineer such a situation somehow as he kicked off this whole round of swaps. He’s got a career in big business if he ever wants to quit F1!

Alonso and Rosberg at mercedes next year? That is going to an interesting team to be a fly on the wall at!

I think the above is referring to ‘full stop’.

Americans say “period” and besides I was quoting Hora.

Anyhoooo….

LH is going nowhere.

Realistically Alonso only has one choice and that’s Mclaren. I agree they are a bit of a shambles at the minute. Even Ron Dennis returning has not be able to change Mclaren’s “suboptimal” performance.

Be interesting to see what Mclaren do with JB and Magnussen. They could probably use a second experienced driver to help them develop the 2015 car, but he’ll probably price himself out of any negotiations and Mclaren will drop him and just keep Magnussen.

Which is a shame but the most likely outcome.

Lewis stayed 1-2 seasons too long at Mclaren however hes made a shrewd move once already, twice if you’d class landing a seat as a rookie in a Mclaren. I doubt he’ll make a backward step. He’ll know how good the Merc is now and how dominant it is and how woeful McLaren are. Maybe a move to McLaren in 2016 after another year at Merc.

If he has another race like Japan where he shows his coolness I bet Nico implodes. After all the last race he kept repeating how lucky Lewis was. Really Luck?

But, neither would doing nothing result in that, seeing as it’s still over 20 years since a driver was killed. They’re already too trigger happy with the SC – they were practically on inters when it came in after the start.

Just to this point a little while back, Jenson has said that at Suzuka, the tarmac tends to hold water which means that the spray is a massive issue until it’s almost ok for inters – which is exactly why they changed to inters not long after the SC came in.

As to LH to McL, you never know for sure but the smart money is on moving there in 2016 once you know if Honda have made a decent engine. Of course there could be some blocks if say Alonso is already there but IMO it’s a qualified risk – it seems unlikely that Honda will make a fundamentally better engine than Merc and McL have hardly been setting the world on fire with their chassis in recent years.

I can’t see LH going to Mclaren although Mercedes have made it clear they are looking to reduce his deal.

@moshimonster, nice job !

Sorry Rich, I was referring to ‘me either’ = ‘me neither’. The ‘mericans always seem to mangle these sayings i.e.’I could care less’ etc (sigh)+(frown) 🙂

@Andyl:

Another miss-match is inertia. An F1 car is ultimately a low mass so has low interia and is thus easier to deviate than a 2 ton car. So when it hits a bump or a load of standing water there will be more of an affect in terms of movement of the car, change in speed etc. In complete opposite think of a big truck hitting a bit of standing water compared to a little hatchback.

Why is this not affected by downforce? Why does the increased effective weight of the car not make them more stable over bumps etc?

(Genuine question! I gave up science at GCSE so it might well be obvious!)

with all this moving of drivers,

has everyone forgot

3 car teams next year!

EDIT:
Alonso, Lewis & Button at McLaren Honda 😀

Hamilton to Mclaren for 2015?? Never saw that one coming! it will be interesting to see if its true

I’m not buying that for many reasons highlighted above.
Also, if it is true, do you really think they’d have him fly in to the MTC to sign up?
It would be done quietly in a lawyers office somewhere

3 car teams next year!

Well it’s clearly what Bernie wants but I don’t think that the FIA want it and the teams don’t seem that fussed, at least not in the context of 2015. More cost and complexity for not a lot more money being the real argument IMO – if Bernie gave them more money then they’d maybe be more favourable…

Wasn’t the 3 car teams idea based on having 2 experienced drivers, and a rookie? (and a sort of Rookie championship). Not for running 3 top drivers.

I’ve never seen that down as anything more than one idea. When it’s been discussed, it’s more been in the context that b2b suggested.

Why is this not affected by downforce? Why does the increased effective weight of the car not make them more stable over bumps etc?

Downforce only acts in the downwards direction 🙂 so yes it helps keep the car stuck to the ground over bumps, but if you lose grip momentarily and then get kicked sideways there’s only the car’s natural inertia to resist that.

Alonso, Lewis & Button at McLaren Honda

😆

I reckon the LH Mclaren story is just about plausible enough (because he’s previously jumped to a seemingly inferior team) to seem worth making up as a rumour.

Why is this not affected by downforce? Why does the increased effective weight of the car not make them more stable over bumps etc?

Because the increase in down force doesn’t increase the inertia of the car. Inertia is a measure of how much force it takes to move something – hence when acted on by a certain amount of force from a bump the lighter car will move a lot more.

The 3 car thing will only come into effect if a few teams disappear over the winter. Caterham are most likely, followed possibly by Sauber as they haven’t had the most stellar season. I can’t see any others going anywhere.

although Mercedes have made it clear they are looking to reduce his deal.

Sauce?

Why is this not affected by downforce? Why does the increased effective weight of the car not make them more stable over bumps etc?

(Genuine question! I gave up science at GCSE so it might well be obvious!)

Inertia is a resistance to change of velocity (acceleration). To put it simply if you kick a stone it moves, if you kick a boulder your foot hurts. It doesnt matter if you kick it left or kick it right, inertia acts in all directions. F = m x a so for the same force a higher ‘m’ gives a lower ‘a’.

If we think of a bump as an impulse then this can be broken down as a force integrated over a time period and is the change in momentum (momentum is mass x velocity). So a lower mass has a higher change in velocity for the same impulse.

Downforce (a force) and gravity (an acceleration which is combined with the mass to give us weight, remember kg are not a unit of weight) act in one direction (down). Think about when you hit a stone or root on your bike. You don’t simply bounce up and over it, your bike slows down (and you lurch forward), unless you hit it square one you get deviated sideways and have to correct etc etc. Same with a lightweight vehicle. In there vertical sense you have extra force pushing down so there is more to resist a force upwards but in every other direction no help so the car can slow slightly, change pitch, yaw slightly. Inertia acts in x, y, z and rotationally about each of those axes.

If we assume x is forwards, y is left right and z up down then aerodynamics predominantly act in the direction of z and about y (but do act in the other directions as everything is coupled just to lesser degree).

It’s all complicated and makes your head hurt which is why we have computers that do matrix calculations for us.

saucy?

regarding 3 cars per team: Claire Williams made her thoughts very clear when asked on a TV interview. It’s not going to work well.

I missed that – what did she say?

“Three car grid” = Bernie trying to hide teams leaving/going to the wall. Impliment a three car grid and the next tier of strugglers will start to hit losses. Either that or the third car will become the fulltime bought in rich kid trundling at the back in all teams bar the top 3.

I missed that – what did she say?

she wasnt very complimentary of the idea. Based on financials really. If it comes in they will have no choice but they really don’t want to.

I don’t think it’s trying to hide that actually. I think it’s more that teams trundling round the back of the grid don’t do anything for him. He’d rather more drivers in competitive cars I reckon.

Claire Williams is proving to be a real chip off the old block. She says what she thinks, refreshing these days. I reckon she’s got a bright future in front of her.

+1 on that. Given that no doubt people suspect nepotism, I think she’s doing a great job of changing perceptions.

agreed.

Wasn’t the 3 car teams idea based on having 2 experienced drivers, and a rookie?

So Alonso, LH and Rosberg at Merc then? 😈

3 car teams, its actually part of the new Concorde agreement (copied over from the old Concorde agreement that ran out) , basically it states that if the number of cars on the grid drops below a certain amount (is it 20… 18?) then teams must field 3 cars – its not an option, its to prevent empty grids and circuit promoters and tv companies suing the Commercial Rights holder (CVC , bernie whoever) for not fulfilling their part of the F1 deal of min no. of cars.

force india is supposed to be tricky due to the owner getting sued for not paying the other part of his business which is an airline,

caterham dodgy

some also say Sauber are on the way out.

the person in the know of these things usually *IS* bernie, and if he’s talkin about 3 cars teams, it could certainly come about….

Have Lotus addressed all their financial troubles yet? Could be another team to add to the list.

I don’t think any of the teams have really addressed ALL of their financial issues (eg McL still don’t have a title sponsor) with the possible exceptions of RB and Ferrari and even they may not be doing so well given Fiat’s closer involvement and lack of success meaning less likely sponsorship.

To the Concorde agreement, if two current teams fold then we’ll get three car teams. It’ll be interesting to see how that would work – I would guess it’d be Ferrari, McL as two off the oldest and most successful then RedBull as the current faves with Bernie (well earned obv) and who else? Williams? obv they have the history but until this year, pretty poor results so how solid a base is that? Lotus – significant issues already documented despite a solid engineering base.