The EU debate in Parliament tommorow…

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  • The EU debate in Parliament tommorow…
  • mrmo
    Member

    if the media could actually be relied upon to give a true picture then a referendum might be a good way of getting an answer.

    But, the media has been anti europe for so long that there is no true picture, all we hear are negatives and often the negatives are invented. Very little is said about what the benefits of Europe are, what the implications of leaving are, etc.

    Simple facts like most trade is with Europe, so whatever we do Europe will be telling us what to do.

    theloner
    Member

    A friend on mine, a Labour Councillor in Hove told me that Brown & Co denied us a referendum on the EU Constitution because the ‘No’ vote would win and they couldn’t allow that. That smacks of dictatorship to me, as does Camerons stance on it now. What price Democracy when manifesto pledges are torn up and tossed out like so much confetti?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    Well actually the referendum Brown proposed was on the EU constitution that never happened – so no vote needed.

    A referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless – do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests?

    theloner
    Member

    TJ-your answer mirrors my Labour Councillor friends view but is missing the point. Whether I want in or out of the EU is irrelevant, what I am saying is if the people WANT a say, as they do, who are politicians to deny it? As you will no doubt know the EU Constitution and the Treaty were for all intents and purposes the same document, they even contained the same spelling mistakes!

    allthepies
    Member

    Got a link to the tory manifesto EU referendum pledge ?

    I found this :-

    “We have introduced a Bill in order to amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any proposed future treaty that transferred areas of power, or competences, would be subject to a referendum on that treaty – a ‘referendum lock’.”

    But that’s not a pledge for a a referendum on our current EU membership is it.

    b r
    Member

    That smacks of dictatorship to me

    But its like having kids, now and again you have to stop them before they do something stupid.

    Premier Icon darrell
    Subscriber

    the trouble is most people are total morons and arent capable of understanding the issues properly and will only be swayed by whatever the tabloids are saying. So probably best is there isnt a referendum

    theloner
    Member

    allthepies-it was in the previous manifesto, before Brown signed the Constitution. And at the time that Brown reneged on his parties promise Cameron screamed and wailed about the benefits of having a referendum, now he orders his MP’s to deny the people what they want.

    b r-politicians are our servants not our parents. Surely if the people want a say then they should have one. If Cameron feels he has the right to patronise the public then he’ll pay at the polls next time out, just like Brown did.

    What worries me the most is that none of the Lib/Lab/Con parties are representing mainstream opinion on Europe-opening the door to the extreme right.

    Premier Icon mrblobby
    Subscriber

    +1 for Darrell and b r. Wouldn’t want a decision this important left to a public vote. If important decisions all went to public vote we’d still be hanging folk.

    theloner
    Member

    darrell- does that give the PM the right to dictate to the public then?

    allthepies
    Member

    So it wasn’t in the Tory manifesto of this government then ?

    theloner
    Member

    Yes, it was. In 2007 Cameron promised a “cast-iron” commitment to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. At the time William Hague described Browns signing of the treaty-against 88% of the publics will- as a “bad day for democracy. What’s changed?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Sad to say but I agree with the argument that a referendum for things like this is basically a bad idea- if anyone believes that such things get settled by informed decision making in a fair climate, just look at the electoral reform debate. An absolute farce, in the end.

    theloner – Member

    A friend on mine, a Labour Councillor in Hove told me that Brown & Co denied us a referendum on the EU Constitution because the ‘No’ vote would win and they couldn’t allow that

    And not because it became irrelevant after other nations rejected it? No you’re right, we should have had a referendum on a constitution that wasn’t going to come to pass regardless, that’d be a good use of time and money. Brown denied us our democratic right to achieve nothing.

    ditch_jockey
    Member

    Here’s a clue – there’s a reason why successive prime ministers don’t want to risk a referendum on pulling Britain out of the EU, and it has to do with not wanting to be the person in charge when they turn out the lights on our economy.

    Only an utter, utter ‘ricky’, which an understanding of economics about a hundred years out of date would consider it prudent to remove Britain from the EU trading block. What exactly would we do next – ask the US if we could become the 51st state?

    don simon
    Member

    What do you reckon, should we have a referendum?

    When I see people asking if they are going to pay duty on European purchases, I fear that they are not informed enough to make decisions on more important issues.
    The news here does seem to maintain a certain distance from Europe and generally I don’t think people are informed.
    So the answer is no, no referendum.

    theloner
    Member

    Blimey, some of you blokes really do come across as a bunch of Patricians! Sod the Plebs and what they think, we know best! I just can’t see that kind of attitude as democratic!

    oliverd1981
    Member

    It really reminds me of the ’80’s, when nobodby understood or cared, only now I’m in my 30’s and not understanding and not caring is such very hard work.

    allthepies
    Member

    Yes, he said all that and then changed his mind in 2009 IIRC but it wasn’t a 2010 manifesto pledge was it.

    Anyway, if you want out of Europe then vote UKIP, that’s about your only option.

    grum
    Member

    Blimey, some of you blokes really do come across as a bunch of Patricians! Sod the Plebs and what they think, we know best! I just can’t see that kind of attitude as democratic!

    For democracy to function properly we would need a fair and balanced media though.

    People who form their political opinions based on the Daily Mail and The Sun shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    theloner – Member

    allthepies-it was in the previous manifesto, before Brown signed the Constitution. And at the time that Brown reneged on his parties promise Cameron screamed and wailed about the benefits of having a referendum, now he orders his MP’s to deny the people what they want.

    Brown never signed up to the EU constitution as it was rejected by other countries. So there was no constitution to have a referendum on. So no pledge was broken

    theloner
    Member

    Whether it was in the 2010 or 2007 manifesto mate, the issue remains the same. The majority of people want a vote. They should, surely, have it? If not what next? Capital punishment?

    theloner
    Member

    Whether or not Brown signed a ‘Treaty’ or a ‘Constitution’ Jerry, the premise was the same. Don’t try and pretend that it wasn’t the same document, every sensible person knows it was whatever their political leaning.

    theloner
    Member

    Various Labour and Tory manifestos have promised us a referendum, Gordon Brown reneged on it, now Cameron is reneging too, if the people want a vote (and polls suggest we do) then shouldn’t the politicians trust us? Whether you are for or against the EU shouldn’t the opinion of the people count for something?
    What do you reckon, should we have a referendum?

    TandemJeremy
    Member

    theloner – nope – every sensible person knows that they are not the same –

    A referendum on the EU independence is stupid and pointless – do you really think withdrawal from the union would be in the UKsScotland’s best interests?

    theloner
    Member

    Really Jerry? Care to point out the differences between the Treaty and Constitution?

    grantway
    Member

    Yes we should have a vote has they are only representing the people
    Whom for some reason put them in? But thats another thread.

    Personally its not ever going to work and nearly every country who’s
    in has collapsed.
    Ive just bought a place in Alicante and courtesy of Great Britain being part of the EU.
    I am driving on new motorways and dual carriageways paid by YOU?
    And yet come here and our roads are a pot /patched up mess!

    Just what are we getting out of it to whats being paid out anyone know ?
    We need to get out and reinvest in this country and educate
    and train for so called skills shortage and not rely on other
    countries investing and pulling the plug on work here and
    giving the work to there own people.

    mrmo
    Member

    What is the point of a referendum? what exactly would it achieve?

    Remember the UK is no longer the centre of a vast empire, it is a small country that relies on trade for its existence.

    Do you think that if the UK pulls out of the EU that Frankfurt won’t ensure that London is screwed as a financial centre?

    If we leave the EU do you really think we will be free to make our own laws? do you really think the French farmers won’t call for a ban on British Beef imports on the basis of TB or whatever takes there fancy?

    Those saying that if we leave the EU then the foreigners will all have to go home, do you really think that is going to happen, look at the use of Filipino nurses or Indian IT contractors, there presence is despite the EU not because of it.

    Take fruit picking so you suddenly see all the Romanians being replaced? even though they have been coming since before Romanian accession?

    As for comments about Norway and its oil wealth, bit irrelevant now as the North Sea oil wealth has been spent, or Switzerland, they have to play along with the EU rules because they have no choice.

    mrmo
    Member

    As an aside i guess you know that the EU part funded the trails at Afan?

    theloner
    Member

    mrmo-my point is that there has bever had to be an educated discussion on the merits of EU membership because our ‘leaders’ in parliament have this arrogant, snobby attitude that they know best and we don’t count.
    The point of having a vote is that the majority WANT a vote, to deny it would be dictaorship in my eyes. I’ve had enough of ‘don’t do as I do, do as I say’ politics.

    grantway
    Member

    Do you think that if the UK pulls out of the EU that Frankfurt won’t ensure that London is screwed as a financial centre?

    That won’t happen being this country nearly solely relies on this for monies.
    If it ever to was there would be a war or near war to happen.

    grantway
    Member

    As an aside i guess you know that the EU part funded the trails at Afan?

    LOL wow just how much was that compared to a total new motorway system and
    dual carriageways in and around Alicante and this goes to Murcia and surrounding districts.
    Just google Alicante to see how big a region it is. Its not just the sea side town!!

    Plus have you not seen Alicante’s New Airport courtesy of EU funding?

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGLlq27y-yk&feature=related[/video]

    mrmo
    Member

    theloner, the point is there can’t be an educated informed discussion with the British Media as it is.

    On that basis what is the point, the outcome is known, but the implications aren’t

    That won’t happen being this country nearly solely relies on this for monies.
    If it ever to was there would be a war or near war to happen.

    Do you really think there would be a war? Consider for a moment the outcome, consider who would enlist? the only war that might happen is a trade war which would see the UK well and truly screwed, we have to import fuel, food, labour, etc etc etc.

    and look up objective one.

    El-bent
    Member

    Personally its not ever going to work and nearly every country who’s in has collapsed.
    Ive just bought a place in Alicante and courtesy of Great Britain being part of the EU. I am driving on new motorways and dual carriageways paid by YOU?
    And yet come here and our roads are a pot /patched up mess!

    Just what are we getting out of it to whats being paid out anyone know ?
    We need to get out and reinvest in this country and educate
    and train for so called skills shortage and not rely on other
    countries investing and pulling the plug on work here and
    giving the work to there own people.

    As someone said further up the thread, daily mail readers. 🙄

    If a referendum were to happen with the three so called options:
    1: To stay in
    2: To stay in but renegotiate our terms, such as free trade agreements.
    3: To leave.

    The EU would not allow option 2. And before anyone mentions Switzerland, they weren’t in the EU in the first place. To have a country in the EU, try to do this option would send a signal to other countries that they can do the same. The EU would then be pointless. Some of you would like that, but it ain’t going to happen.

    So we are left with option 1 and 3, and since the unbiased OP seems to be clamouring for option 3, It means we are completely out with all the economic consequences that come with it.

    theloner
    Member

    Sorry mrmo, but are saying is that the British people are too stupid to be trusted with decisions about our own future?

    mrmo
    Member

    Sorry mrmo, but are saying is that the British people are too stupid to be trusted with decisions about our own future?

    No, i am saying the British People have been told for so long that the EU is a bad thing they will vote for what they have been told to be true.

    If that is stupidity so be it, i would say it is more akin to brain washing.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    A referendum on the EU is stupid and pointless – do you really think withdrawal would be in the UKs best interests?

    These points simply do not follow so this is a merely a cheap trick – the answer to the second part has no bearing on the first.

    Who defines “best interest”? What happens in a period of economic prosperity/recession. The government could argue, sorry its not in the interests of the UK to hold an unsettling election at the moment, so we will cancel an election. Hmmm!!!

    When I see people asking if they are going to pay duty on European purchases, I fear that they are not informed enough to make decisions on more important issues. The news here does seem to maintain a certain distance from Europe and generally I don’t think people are informed. So the answer is no, no referendum.

    While there may be truth in what you say here, BUT the logical conclusion to this argument is that democracy is a bad idea. We take it as read that citizens have a right to vote irrespective of there level of understanding of the issues involved. So to use this as a basis for argument (alone) is to tear up the foundations of democracy. Or am I missing something here?

    BTW (TJ) not showing my hand yet but look forward to your interpretation 😉

    grantway
    Member

    Do you really think there would be a war? Consider for a moment the outcome, consider who would enlist? the only war that might happen is a trade war which would see the UK well and truly screwed, we have to import fuel, food, labour, etc etc etc.

    After bailing the banks out hence we are in so much debt that it could not ever happen?

    What happened to America when they had a problem with Vietnam over a tooth brush
    and amongst other items.

    Trade war well if that puts us in the shite so the above will happen has a last resort.
    Fuel,food,labour well we would simply need to invest then you will not need the above
    from anyone else.

    If we invest for long term you would not need to worry for the above.

    And if we need to buy we would look at America and Australia for such items

    theloner
    Member

    teanhurtmore-thanks for that, it’s kinda what I was trying to say (rather badly!).

    Junkyard
    Member

    I cannot see how withdrawing would help in the current economic climate. We mainly trade with europe and the end of that free trade would clearly harm us.
    The problem is there is little [none] positive news about Europe from the free press and lots of BS stories about what it does and does not do.
    The vote would almost certainly be to withdraw which would harm us massively in the short run. Now is not the time to do this as the tottering economy would be Fubbared.

    I dont trust the public to do anything other than an emotive vote for freedom without full comprehension of the facts and implications;
    neither has any political leader even those who naturally dont like the EU

    The whole discussion also ignores the fact we voted to join as well.
    It’s a fair point to say it’s anti democratic or against the peoples wishes.

    As usual you raise some interesting points teamhurtmore [ your THM from now on btw] but democracy does not always make great decisions [ nor do politicians- Blair over Iraq or Germans voting for Hitler [forgive me my Goodwin]. I would not like to defend either as great exemplars of either democracy or ignoring the people.
    personally I am ambivalent as i dont really care where I am ignored from be it the EU council or Westminster

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