Its a little bit like the freedom fighters wanting Scottish Independence. It was voted against so they want another chance.

Does this logic also apply to the Common Market referendum we held in 1975?

“THAT is why Tory voters are selfish.”
But so is this. To want something that others don’t and to deny them the acceptability is selfish. To my mind the Socialist idea is selfish. You want to upset the natural way of the wrold and deny people the right to make what they want of themselves.
My point above exactly.

Britain is becoming a very rightwing country

But it isnt though is it?
Things are the same as they have always been, 24 hour instant reporting is bringing up things now that would never have been known about, or talked about 30 years ago as they are non-stories, yet puffed up to make them into a scandal. – Boris has bedroom decorated. So what. he’s rich and has rich friends.
In reality, we have the most socialist Government for 20 , maybe 30 years, maybe more? Who would have thought they said ‘stop going to work if you are in danger, and we’ll pay 80% of your wages’. The amount they have funded businesses who have had to close down. The amount paid out to manage the Covid crisis. Yes, there are mistakes, and it’s very easy to criticise after the event, but, they been more ‘socialist’ than most previous Governments, something that they would not have done of they were the ‘uncaring tory scum’ as depicted by some people.
And no, I didnt vote, and I do think they are an utter rabble, but Labour are no better, and probably worse.

Britain is angry – but it’s lashing out at the wrong things. That’s the bit that needs fixing.

Don’t know what you’re chatting about. In the last week I have been riding in Surrey Hills, NE and Scotland.

Looks like NE and Scotland are starting to takeover Surrey for high end bikes and vans. No one there looked poor. Massive change over last 10-20yrs. Next they all going to go vegan and drink expensive plant based milk in their high end coffee. No, that’s already happened 😂😂

we have the most socialist Government for 20 , maybe 30 years, maybe more? Who would have thought they said ‘stop going to work if you are in danger, and we’ll pay 80% of your wages’.

+1

This government can be accused of many things but failing to be socialist is not one of them. In addition to directly funding literally half the economy the government has been in direct control of our lives to a degree nobody would have thought possible 18 months ago. Anyone born after WW2 has never seen a bigger state and never will again.

At the risk of this becoming a repeat of various other threads…

There are two aspects to politics. You need to have the idea and the power.

The left (labour?) need to understand that people are not going to vote for socialism. What they need to offer is what people want which in my “expert political analysis” appears to be something near to the Torys unfortunately. So aiming left enough of that to get affect change but pick up enough ideas to get into power would be a good start. There’s no point winning the arguement on the margins of government.

Oh, and I’d suggest bare faced lies as well. Seems to have worked for Johnson. Tell them Brexit was amazing, we’ll deport all the brown people, get voted in, rejoin the EU, give everyone free broadband.

TBH That’s pretty much on the mark, listening to the Vox pops and Labour door-stepper testimony Corbyn and Brexit cast a shadow over these local elections.
Labour’s biggest success in my lifetime? Still Blair.
Who to some extent aped the 90s city boys and “professional classes” to score votes from natural Tories. In the late 90s the voting habits of what had been a Tory inclined demographic changed and we had a Decade of “New Labour” which sadly didn’t change much socially.

Cameron marked an apparent drift to the centre for the Tories and some slicker presentation to woo some enough of them back. It worked for a bit but the current cluster was brewing under his nose the whole time… the EU split being the ignition point.

Boris’s current popularity Stems from two main things, most obviously He’s well and truly part of the “Elite” he claims to be smashing (He first took office as an MP about 2 Decades ago). So the old guard know this and are still happy to support the real project irrespective of what the figurehead says and does. Their wealthy, establishment core is largely intact.
Secondly the old Left/Right and Class divisions have pretty much gone for many who would have been “working class” under the old definitions. They don’t care about Fatcher, expensive wall paper or shagging about they want someone to facilitate (or at least bang on about) “Change” so they can win big money and lease a new Merc, facilitating aspirational greed.
And for those not politically or intellectually engaged, Boris’s appeal is almost on an “entertainment” level. He’s like the strange Tory love child of Jeremy Clarkson and Oliver Reed, creating a “safe space” for people to indulge in lazy popularist Bigotry under the heading of “telling it like it is” and whole heartedly leaning into his vices so he can wear a lovable rogue badge… the “Brand” isn’t conservatism it’s Boris, the voters who’ve put a cross next to ‘Conservative’ in the last two elections have had his podgy face in mind as they did it, not the MP or Councillor that actually scored their vote, it’s worked.

So the sleeze doesn’t stick, corruption is apparently an acceptable price for installing a “disruptor” who “gets things done”.
Socialism (whatever that even is anymore) and “leftist”, “liberal” politics are unfashionable, slapped down by the meeja, and will not score Labour any power…
And what even is the makeup of the UK’s “Labour” force these days? those at the bottom of the wage pile?
It’s not miners, machinists or steel workers, those sort of professions are dwindled to almost nothing.
No it’s un-unionised Retail workers, call centre staff and service sector employees, those stuck at on the bottom rungs of the Gig economy with mounting debts for a degree that hasn’t benefitted them, while their employment rights are eroded, and their parents generation clap along…
That is where Labour’s missing votes are…

Honestly **** the “red-Wall Man on the street” 40-50something idiot frittering his kids future away because the Sun said it was the right idea. They’ve ditched Labour, so Labour needs to ditch them. Instead the party needs to speak to their kids, maybe even to their grandparents (who might have a different perspective on things) but Labour needs stop trying to appeal to everyone and start appealing to those, who over the coming decade, are going to feel the bite from Boris’s little adventure in government…

I don’t think Kier stands a chance of winning the next GE, I doubt his successor will either it’s going to take a full generation, who are still maturing, to actually push back on this current greed focussed regime, sold on a thin veneer of Jingoistic nationalism and sneering libertarianism. The current chapter of the “Culture Wars” has been lost in the UK.

Socialism (whatever that even is anymore)

Except, as repeatedly pointed out, we’ve had possibly the most oppressive*, most socialist government since WW2.

*against their own will perhaps, they’d probably have actually had to be less oppressive if they’d just swallowed their pride and done it sooner.

people to indulge in lazy popularist Bigotry under the heading of “telling it like it is”

I’m not sure if blinkered is the right word to describe a complete lack of self awareness, but

Honestly **** the “red-Wall Man on the street” 40-50something idiot frittering his kids future away because the Sun said it was the right idea.

The problem is you will never win an argument with statements like that. Standing wherever you are in the country and pointing at the North-ish of England and saying “it’s your fault your poverty-stricken Sun reading imbecile” won’t convince them that you’re right. Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word your saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments. Or rather you’ll need an argument, not just a half page diatrade about you being right and if only poor people weren’t so stupid they’d realize it.

*against their own will perhaps

Yes and I can’t see them waiting that long to bring back austerity on steriods (as we ‘have’ to pay back all this largesse over the last 18 months).

@cookeaa

Yes and I can’t see them waiting that long to bring back austerity on steroids (as we ‘have’ to pay back all this largesse over the last 18 months).

With a General election coming in 2 years time a 24 month spendathon with borrowed money seems far more likely. They can blame Covid and leave the mess for the next government to sort out.

Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word you’re saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments. Or rather you’ll need an argument, not just a half page diatribe about you being right and if only poor people weren’t so stupid they’d realize it.

+1

I think, as others have said, that society is increasingly selfish and attention spans shortening. With the perceived increased stresses of life, if you’re in control then you just need to throw out a few soundbites and demonise the unknown. Most people don’t give a fig so as long as they’re not directly threatened then they prefer the status quo. Heck even traditionally critical thinking degrees like history are being eroded in favour of STEM with the emphasis on income.

This government can be accused of many things but failing to be socialist is not one of them.

Let’s see how socialist they are in 2 years time. They had little choice during pandemic as the country would have had a bigger problem if they didn’t do what they did and they knew it.

However, will they continue being ‘socialist; or will they revert to form. Any hint of the austerity word and we will know for sure.

I don’t think Kier stands a chance of winning the next GE, I doubt his successor will either it’s going to take a full generation, …

Or two to three generations …

It is not for Labour to win but for Conservative to lose.

The problem is you will never win an argument with statements like that. Standing wherever you are in the country and pointing at the North-ish of England and saying “it’s your fault your poverty-stricken Sun reading imbecile” won’t convince them that you’re right. Maybe spend a few minutes trying to figure out why they don’t believe a word your saying (starting with the insult throwing) and then try re-framing your arguments.

Don’t try and make this into a North/South thing, it’s about those jumping on the Tory bandwagon believing there’s something in it for them, irrespective of where they live…

As nice as it would be to think they’re receptive to constructive, reasoned debate, we’re five years into it and and those middle-aged flippers are clearly fine with covering their ears and ignoring facts. Let’s be honest if you consistently back a party full of bastards of, you’re probably a bit of a bastard yourself.

It’s a waste of breath, There’s no conciliation to be had, they’ve already gotten what they voted for. Things will have to run their course.

Labour if they continue to be the party of working people, they need to focus on different groups, those that don’t figure in the current vision, the generation that is going to pay the price for their parents folly is a good place to start IMO…

Admonish me for inflammatory language, it’s no worse than what’s coming the other way…

So yeah. **** Em!

The Torys have massively over promised on Brexit and this term in parliament. It will all change in 5 years as the country begins to understand just how long they have been in power and what they have delivered. They have an absolute mountain to climb and Labour plus others have time to regroup and make a new type of politics hopefully aimed at the young. We will never see old school socialism again but we will see a more caring form of government when the current lot fail

I – perhaps mistakenly, it seems – consider ‘wokeism’ to be intellectual navel gazing over semantics or issues that are important…

Yes, navelgazing subjects such as global warming, whether refugees deserve refuge, or indeed any issue of social justice.

… only to vanishingly small parts of the populace.

Yep.

Socialism isn’t dead, it just needs re-branding.

Was talking to my wife about this and she’s adamant that Labour need to leave the working classes behind. They seem intent on voting Tory, as do the upper classes. Labour need to focus on the middle classes and the educated, somewhat like the Democrats on the USA.

Expand that base and maybe, just maybe they could get back in. But they need to accept that places like Hartlepool are long gone.

What Labour should do is secretly start a new even worse even more populist party, UKIP style. That’d get loads of support, split the Tory vote but not enough to win seats.

They just aren’t thinking ruthlessly enough.

Socialism isn’t dead, it just needs re-branding.

Exactly. Poorer people still hate fat cats and toffs, and they want to look after themselves and people like them. That’s why when they vote Tory it’s so paradoxical, and can only be media-led.

Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk.

Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.

it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk

I think its biggest problem isn’t that – it’s that people are spouting all sorts of bollocks about them for all sorts of reasons. They’ve just become the people everyone loves to hate, if they aren’t really thinking about the issues. Most people vote on sentiment, and Labour don’t have a strong brand. Nothing to do with policies and government. Boris has a strong brand, because he comes across as likeable. That’s all there is to it.

And Boris isn’t socialist in any way whatsoever. Anyone who thinks that has no idea what socialism means and/or what Johnson is all about.

I do have to wonder reading some of these comments, what some people actually think “socialism” is…

Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left

Care to name their ‘loony left’ policies? Because that jibe just sounds like the last 20 yrs of right wing tabloidism, no offence.

I do have to wonder reading some of these comments, what some people actually think “socialism” is…

‘Selfishness’ is the one that stood out. smh

I realised a few years back (around since when t’internet gave us the US rightwing memez) that all my existing (admittedly limited) political frames of reference are increasingly in tatters. ‘Socialism’ in the UK has AFAIK always been a social democracy with a mixed economy and a trend moving ‘forward’ of eroding and selling of publicly owned companies and resources. Except now people paint it as some kind of soviet threat in a way reminiscent of the USA’s red scare propaganda. It all feels so dumbed-down and detached from reality/actual history. Another weird twist is that ‘socialists’ used to be (and be viewed as) ‘anti-globalisation’ – yet now in popular culture and social media ‘the left’ are painted and broadly, vehemently derided as the ‘globalist elite’, while the actual millionaires, billionaires and multinationals are buying up countries from the inside out, funding right wing campaigns/governments who grow the global gig economy, reducing workers rights and outsourcing wherever.

It’s all Pete Tong.

What I’m interested in having spent lots of time understanding the Government finances and how it’s taken the Pandemic for people to see they don’t need to tax and spend (see other discussions or read Stephanie Kelton’s amazing book) – is whether they revert to type.

Sunak is quiet at the moment and he’s very old school – he’s clearly been told to stay out of the way as was one of the proponents of get back to work asap.

Anyway inflation is barely moving and there are dark days ahead – there’s no way we can’t move forward without more Government money, but whether the Tories will claim we need to pay it back (clue we don’t) the economy will even generate growth going forward like we have seen in the past is unlikely.

The recent forecast and excitement about a jump in growth is ridiculous given everything has been on its knees.

Labour is dead – it has been overrun by the loony left and has lost the respect of normal, common sense folk.

Boris is now supplying all the socialism that most people want, there is no reason to vote labour anymore. Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.

A good example of what they are up against and the selfish attitudes that exist.
A lot of people are as ignorant as this – loony left (from the 80’s?), anyone struggling/less privileged is a scrounger and so on.

The recent forecast and excitement about a jump in growth is ridiculous given everything has been on its knees.

Exactly. As soon as shops open people go shopping, as soon as hospitality opens people will eat out/stay in hotels etc,., as soon as hairdressers open people with get their hair done and so on.

The demand has not gone away, the supply was cut off.

People vote Conservative because there is no viable alternative in their eyes. They can’t trust the other parties to handle the economy, their jobs and homes, education and healthcare because of how incompetent, odd, plain weird their leadership appear. And too many of their supporters are frequently symptomatic of failing to “clean house”. Antagonistic, insult spewing, foaming at the mouth, rabid, violence threatening, claiming to be inclusive but anti-specific-group racists. Behind the scenes there is an army of grey civil service workers that do the “real” work once decisions have been made.

I don’t care which flavour of government is in power. Hell, I’ve lived under democracies, dictators, theocracies and now single party communism. But right now, and my family/kids are back in the UK, I’m concerned the UK jobs sector was pushed for a long time into underpaid service sector roles. A sector that was smashed by the pandemic. A sector that shows it’s vulnerable to all sorts of impacts. And the government kept trying to reopen it, rather than have a serious look at changing the way we live, and I’m thinking it’s because their friends/donors/neighbours operate large businesses in that sector and will lose their income stream if it goes away.

I think what this Tory government has done so successfully, with the help of the right wing press and social media, is to draw people into their sphere of influence and once there, turn it into an echo chamber that they’re almost never going to escape from. They find most of the mates and family in there and any effort a small number might make to peer out, is met with fear inducing rhetoric, downright lies (with no risk any more of any recourse for this) or some nostalgic propganda that quickly snaps the lid shut.

I therefore agree with some earlier posts that in the face of this, Labour are toast for at least a generation as those already boxed up and voting Tory now are gone IMO.

Without major reform to the way most people consume media which seems highly unlikely to happen, Labour need to target those not already boxed up Tory (like the young etc mentioned earlier) and work bloody hard to keep hold of them, which may still not be enough. The odds are well stacked against them unfortunately.

Was talking to my wife about this and she’s adamant that Labour need to leave the working classes behind

No. 100% no.

How’s targeting the middle classes working out for the Lib Dems?

Simply giving up on the section of the population that would benefit the most from you being in power because they currently don’t vote for you is Labours problem to fix, not to ignore.

Socialism is what people think it is. There’s no point trying to argue the finer points of definition.

I don’t think labour are toast. Things can swing rapidly – Johnson is riding a wave of vaccine rollout/lockdown ending. In two years he may not have the momentum.

I’m coming to the opinion that while Starmer would be a very competent leader he doesn’t have the X factor to deal with Johnson. He would do well against a less charismatic leader where there was a debate but that’s not where we are. Not sure who would make a good leader. I think politics has moved away from older ideas of left and right at the present time. I’m not sure what Labours USP is right now. How do they capture the public’s attention and demonstrate that if they are voted in they will bring positive change. Again, not talking about the in depth academic arguements, I’m talking 3 word slogans and sound bites.

Agree, Starmer would be a sensible choice but the UK is not into sensible choices

As for 3 word slogans, “For the many, not the few”? summed it up well but “Get Brexit done” seemed to trump it but that was admittedly an easy one with the given audience.

Be interesting to see what the slogans are next time but I am really not sure how a party trying to promote a more caring society appeals to a society that doesn’t care.

I’m not sure what Labours USP is right now. How do they capture the public’s attention and demonstrate that if they are voted in they will bring positive change. Again, not talking about the in depth academic arguements, I’m talking 3 word slogans and sound bites.

This is the real issue. There’s no point in them trying to speak to “lefty loonies” like me, not voting Tory is ingrained in my DNA.

And while I’m not going to be kina about the class traitors that turned Tory, I do get it, in a society dripping with it mages of aspirational wealth, it’s easy to notice when you’ve been left behind and marginalised. That was leveraged to sell Brexit and is now being used to sustain the Boris party’s grip on power…

But you’re right, these days sloganeering, presentation and sheer stupid, visible stunts win support. Labour will need some of that too…

Folk want meritocracy not endless handouts for the scroungers.

Poorer people still hate fat cats and toffs, and they want to look after themselves and people like them.

I think both of those are true. I’m what should be a Labour voter, but there is no way I’d be voting for them. Too many ’causes’ that they support. F.. them is what I would say is a typical response from people if I ask them at work about Labour.
I work in Social Housing. Prime Labour territory, but the people, mostly, think Labour are a joke. They hate the Scroungers, and there are many of them around. They hate the rich who try to dodge their taxes.
Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view. Labour really do live on a different planet. Sending a Remain Candidate to a 70% Leave constituency election.

As for this election, does it matter that much? In itself no, Labour will likely do as well as they usually do in Scotland

So, not?

Hate to break this to you but Labour has been a lost cause in Scotland for years now, they are currently being beaten 38:4:3:2 by SNP, Libs and Tories respectively. That’s thanks to a revolving door of poor leadership, antagonistic policies (vote down anything the SNP propose even if it’s your own policy) and downright self harm (vote Tories to keep SNP out!).

Labour are perceived to support the scroungers. People arriving illegally on boats, the usual response is to take them back to where they came from, or, less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent, they see things differently to the London Centric Labour view.

No, they are, and utter **** to boot.

Thanks @alanl

Voices like this are needed on these threads otherwise it reverts to the same circular arguments.

With regards to this mindset:

People arriving illegally on boats, ….. less commonly, but not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.

I find this view utterly abhorrent, and would never ever consider voting for a party that even hinted at taking a view even close to this. I’d like to hope I’m not alone in thinking that.

What do you think is the best way for Labour to get through to people who think like this and turn that opinion around?

not unusual, sink the boats and let them drown.People think that Labour support the illegal immigrants. Calling thee people deluded, racist etc will never work. They arent

Uncaring heartless monsters rather than racists then?

Honestly I used to be very anti religion but there’s a lot of people in this country rn who it seems did need to be brainwashed into thinking they had to be good or they would go to hell.

Parliamentary politics has moved from left to right tp right to right. Two economically conservative parties but one socially liberal and the other socially conservative (paradoxically Johnson’s), there’s your choice. Haystack or brilliantine.
I gave up the Guardian in 2017 and now thinking of ditching the NS. These journals used to (occasionally) employ socialists, now the only entertainment is in spotting how they sneak in their AC tropes and smears.
However, we have known this all along it’s just that in a crisis you get a much clearer picture of who stands for what. The state of the LP is not a reliable indicator of the prevalence of socialist ideas, wtf has Adm Nelson got to do with (filthy rich) equality and (Jeffrey Epstein) justice? Westminster is definitely a ‘self service’ super market.

My thoughts are that “Labour” and “socialism” as brands are irreparably damaged. Speaking from personal experience / observation in my area, the aggressively vocal and dogmatic, middle class Momentum types (who miss the irony that they are part of the gentrification problem hurting communities) have massively disengaged the traditional Labour audience.

When they were campaigning in the run up to the local elections here, the focus was all about “causes”, “equality”, protest politics etc, rather than important localised grass roots concerns like housing, illegal redevelopment of a green space by a developer (that the incumbent Labour council aren’t doing much about), transport so the area isn’t cut off, the closure of a major factory/warehouse that employed many locals.

As a result, the perception is that middle class “campaigner/activist” types are running things and aren’t interested in the traditional voters, and when challenged on this, they become aggressive, condescending and resort to the usual “gammons/bigots/idiots/racists/selfish” tropes rather than listening, engaging and acting on behalf of the people whose votes they want.

There needs to be a fundamental shift in the visible makeup of the Labour Party and a concerted effort to re-engage positively if they ever want to get in power again.