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  • The Electric Car Thread
  • Flaperon
    Full Member

    Had an email from Tusker last week suggesting that with only six months left on the lease I need to start hunting for a replacement. Decided not to go electric second time around and will just grab another used 5-year-old V60 (diesel or petrol) towards the end of the summer.

    I love the experience of driving electric cars, like the get in and go, instant heat, refuelling at home at cheap rates, but there have been some changes in the last three years that I don’t like.

    The first one, obviously, is the price increase. Even with the salary sacrifice tax dodge the higher BIK and £800/yr road tax knock much of the benefits away. That applies to any new EV, really. Need 300 mile range? Pay £50k+. Teslas are particularly expensive on the Tusker scheme, whether down to insurance or poor residual values, I don’t know.

    The new Model 3 has the same crippled automation as the current one, and I’m not going to spend another £4,000 for an automatic lane change that doesn’t work much of the time and which can be removed whenever Tesla deliberately interpret UNECE rules incorrectly to make a point. Still no parking sensors.

    Other main reason is public charging. It was 20p/kWh when I bought the car, but is now 50p/kWh at Tesla stations and between 80p-99p elsewhere. I know there’s an upfront cost to building new chargers, but there’s a balance to be struck and it feels like the equivalent of having to refuel at motorway service stations everywhere. Even slow chargers are astronomically expensive.

    Landowners are taking advantage of the increased demand – not by building more chargers, but by applying onerous access and parking charges. The last two Tesla chargers I used had a minimum £5 fee just to get into the car park. Could you imagine paying a fiver to drive into your local Esso station?

    You’d think the Tesla network brings an advantage, but now they’re opening more and more sites to all EVs, you hit the problem where the car navigates you there thinking that there’s an empty space, but in reality there are just 4 non-Teslas taking up 8 spaces. You’ve also wasted £4 in electricity pre-heating the battery in a pointless exercise.

    And, fundamentally, I don’t want to buy another Tesla because of Elon Musk.

    So I know this sounds depressing from someone who was an EV evangelist a few years ago, but it’s clear that neither the incumbents or Labour have any intention of pushing the green agenda over the next few years so I might as well take advantage of the bribes they’re giving to ICE owners.

    Edit: just to clarify a couple of EV myths. Over the last 30 months I’ve never come close to running out of electricity or worried about finding a charger en-route. I’ve had to wait for a space a couple of times, and occasionally the charge rate has been irritatingly slow at only 50kW.

    The battery degradation doesn’t seem to be a thing – it was showing a range of 333 miles when I bought it and now has 321. I’ve been charging it to 95-100% every time against the guidance and it doesn’t seem to care.

    julians
    Free Member

    so I might as well take advantage of the bribes they’re giving to ICE owners

    what are these bribes? as far as I can tell an ice car has a lot of the same issues you mention about EV’s – (eg high tax, high public fuelling costs etc),but I dont see any bribes, but maybe I’m missing something.

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    Road tax on a new Model 3 from next year: ~£650/yr.
    Road tax on an old V60: £30/yr.

    Tax increases on fuel have been held year-on-year for fear of upsetting Tory voters.

    iainc
    Full Member

    Road tax on a new Model 3 from next year: ~£650/yr.

    I guess those of us on salary sacrifice leases are going to see a hike in our monthly payments …

    andylc
    Free Member

    That appears to be incorrect. EVs registered on or after Jan 2025 will be £10 per year for the first year and £180 per year after that. The supplement for cars more than £40,000 has been scrapped.
    There is always the issue of previously low charge / free tax cars being unreasonably cheap.
    Edit sorry you may be right about the £40,000 thing but apparently it’s still likely there will be pressure to remove this – the exemption is due to end in 2025 as you said.

    ayjaydoubleyou
    Full Member

    Unrelated note, saw my first Fisker Ocean driving today. Did not look as huge as I’d feared. More of an Evoque/Macan size than Range Rover/Chav pickup.

    Anyone been in one/driven one?

    julians
    Free Member

    I guess those of us on salary sacrifice leases are going to see a hike in our monthly payments

    It will only apply to new ev’s bought after the introduction of the luxury car tax in 2025, it wont be applied retrospectively to older ev’s.

    road tax on a new Model 3 from next year: ~£650/yr.
    Road tax on an old V60: £30/yr.

    Road tax on an old model 3 (or any other ev regardless of list price from before april 2025) from next year : £180.

    I dont actually think its as black and white as that , I think (but cant be bothered to dig) that older ev’s (maybe before a certain date) are still £0 tax.

    If your lease is up in the next 6 months, you can still lease a brand new ev and just pay £180 per year road tax because it’ll be registered before the april 2025 deadline when the luxury car tax starts to apply to ev’s.

    I mean ultimately if an ev doesnt work because of range, charging speed or cost to purchase, then it doesnt work thats just a fact of life, but If one worked for you for the past 3 years, then one can surely work for the next 3, especially if you get in before the new luxury car tax rules.

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    The road tax is a relatively small element of my decision.

    julians
    Free Member

    road tax is a relatively small element of my decision

    do you do a lot of public charging? I can completely understand that there’s little point in going ev if you have to use the public charging infrastructure a lot. I think the infrastructure itself is getting there no for most of the country, but the costs are stupid.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I find it kind of horrifying now how much diesel I pour into the tank of my car and the fact it all gets spewed out of the exhaust into the air.

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    do you do a lot of public charging?

    About half of the charging I do is on a public charger. The rest is at 7.5p/kWh with Octopus.

    julians
    Free Member

    About half of the charging I do is on a public charger.

    Yeah, that’d probably make an ev pointless for me too, would tip the balance to being too long waiting for the car to charge instead of driving like I would be if I were in the ICE car, combined with the costs of public electricity .

    molgrips
    Free Member

    would tip the balance to being too long waiting for the car to charge instead of driving like I would be if I were in the ICE car

    See earlier in the thread regarding charge times with the Hyundai platform. I was weighing up the EQC versus Ioniq 5 earlier, then I realised the latter could charge at least twice as quick. The charge numbers discussed are pretty remarkable and certainly in line with the time I’d spend stopped anyway.

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    Pinch of salt required regarding the Hyundai / Kia / Genesis platform charging speeds.

    Yes,they are realistic and entirely achievable but the big speeds are dependent on finding a powerful enough charger which, currently, are few and far between.

    On anything much less than a 150kw charger the difference in charge times will be much less pronounced.

    It’ll still be faster because the curve is more favourable but not spectacularly so.

    Most of the time the charger is the limiting factor especially if there are other cars there and the bank of chargers are load sharing between them.

    w00dster
    Full Member

    Subject change, but for anyone interested in lead times for new EV’s, I ordered an Audi Q4 eTron in December and have a ready date of 31st May. It enters the production line on the 19th February, so a fairly long build and customs process.

    Now going through the process of trying to switch to Octopus and order a home charging point.

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    I have a referral code which gets each of us £50 if you haven’t got one already.

    DrP
    Full Member

    So we arrived in Eftelling earlier today….

    Left the chunnel with 83%…

    Planned a lunch stop about 1hr 40 down the road..

    Stopped for about 40 min, and added 43kWh at a 150kw charger…

    However I can’t get the slow ones here to work! I’ve 4 days to figure it out!

    It seems the VAST majority of chargers en route (inc Tesla) top out at 150kw… So the point above makes sense.

    DrP

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    It seems the VAST majority of chargers en route (inc Tesla) top out at 150kw…

    That’s not the charger. That’s the car. Polestar 2 maxes out at 150kW innit.

    Unless you meant that there were mostly 150kw chargers everywhere which is exactly what you meant now that I re-read it.
    As you were.

    DrP
    Full Member

    Carry on 😀😀😀😀💪🏾

    Yeah… Chargers were 150… Well.. The tesla at the chunnel was 175… But…. Whatever…

    DrP

    somafunk
    Full Member

    Back on bottom of Page 135 I posted up about taking an MG EV XPower out for a test drive (quite nippy) and ordering my new MG HS 1.5 DCT motability car as my VW Tiguan was due to go back, I picked up my MG today and drove it 30 miles home, if anyone is thinking of buying one………Don’t, just don’t, take the bus instead. If you could buy a car on temu the the MG HS is what I imagine you’d end up getting delivered.

    I would have ordered another Tiguan specced as mine was but they are now £3299+ down payment which I don’t have, I also checked every other car/suv manufacturer on motability that had a similar seat height and spec to my Tiguan and the cheapest was £2000+, again out of my budget. The MG had a very similar spec to my Tiguan and similar seat height but was £0 down payment, so was the only option.

    Cool story eh? 😉

    ps, don’t buy one, don’t even bother test driving one, if you walk past an MG showroom then I advise turning around and finding another route

    FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    And, fundamentally, I don’t want to buy another Tesla because of Elon Musk.

    I wouldn’t either for the same reason but there’s plenty of good alternatives now. Also if you register it before April 1st 2025 you won’t be paying the additional £390 luxury vehicle supplement (at least not until they change their mind). I agree though lease costs are insane for mid-high end EVs and very difficult to justify unless you’re doing a lot of miles but can home charge/cheap away charge for most of it to claw some of the money back.

    lamp
    Free Member

    @Flaperon – your experience is unfortunately now the same as mine. I have become so disillusioned with the EV market that i have bought an ICE car again. I have been an early adapter of EV’s and on my second Tesla over 8 years. I have noticed the Tesla charging points getting busier and busier and have queued twice this week at Marks Tey in Colchester, i’ve queued at numerous services up and down the UK, something that didn’t happen even two years ago.

    The time saved by not queuing at chargers or waiting 40 minutes to get enough charge to get home is now noticeable. I have a Toyota Hilux Invincible now that i use which runs Adblue Diesel so as clean as it comes all things considered. I get practically double the mileage from it compared to the long range Model Y and it’s slightly cheaper than electric. A real shame, but 8 years averaging 30k miles a year i feel gives me enough experience. to comment….. if someone could do a real world 550 mile battery (in winter) then i’d consider them as a viable alternative

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I have a Toyota Hilux Invincible now that i use which runs Adblue Diesel so as clean as it comes all things considered.

    Lol what

    I get practically double the mileage from it compared to the long range Model Y and it’s slightly cheaper than electric.

    Umm…

    Alex
    Full Member

    Always enjoy reading (most of this thread). Lots of experience on here. So let me ask a question. We have one EV (MG4) and my 4 year old Skoda Koraq which is PCP/due back Sept. Things we know/need

    – can’t go down to one car (I know someone will say you can, but it’s a no for this next car cycle. Maybe after that)

    – replacement for the Skoda needs to have towbar but only for bike rack (and no I do not want to put dirty bikes in cars, been there do not want to re-do, other reasons I need towbar as well but not for any heavy towing)

    – 10,000 miles a year, we have a home charger, I rarely nowadays do over 200 miles in a day but sometimes away at universities around that distance so would need to charge somewhere. I’d say tho based on analysis of last year 90% charging could be done at home with a range of 250-270ish

    – Don’t need to buy new. Not interested in owning. So Molgrips PCP thread was helpful.

    – Sizewise, me and the better half mostly now. Occasionally collect a grown up offspring and all their belongings but Koraq was a good size. Could prob go smaller. Hatch for dog useful, or estate. No need for SUV, would rather have estate but not so many EVs.

    I’m torn between getting something like an Ionic or even the MG electric estate or thinking maybe better to wait a few years and either buy Koraq at end of PCP deal (it’s been fine) or chop it for something else ICE.

    I’d rather go electric but for all the new models etc, I’m just not finding anything that’s making me think ‘yep that’s the solutoom’

    mert
    Free Member

    I have a Toyota Hilux Invincible now that i use which runs Adblue Diesel so as clean as it comes all things considered.

    All things? Really?

    kcal
    Full Member

    Alex — hybrid possibly, and then re-evaluate in another couple of years time.

    Towbar and the like are a big hassle as far as I can see — not impossible, but likes of VW ID3 can’t even support roof bars and > 4 travellers, as it’s not rated for that (as far as I understand).

    roverpig
    Full Member

    if someone could do a real world 550 mile battery (in winter) then i’d consider them as a viable alternative

    I think I see where you are coming from. The longest trip I “regularly” do is to see the in-laws (e.g. at Christmas) and it’s a 530 mile trip. So a 550 mile (winter) range EV sounds like a winner.

    But the battery is always going to be the most expensive and heaviest component on an EV. Does it really make sense to spec that to cope with the journeys that only happen a few times a year?

    In truth, even the most efficient 530-mile trip to the in-laws involves at least two stops with a total stopped time of at least an hour. (and that’s pushing it). If public chargers were plentiful enough that I could immediately plug in at every stop and charging were fast enough that I could do, say 10-80% in 30 minutes, would I really need more than, say, a 250 mile range?

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that long range sounds desirable but isn’t that just because the charging infrastructure isn’t there (yet)?

    This is all from the point of view of someone who has never owned an EV though, so I’m happy to be corrected by those who have.

    multi21
    Free Member

    I get practically double the mileage from it compared to the long range Model Y and it’s slightly cheaper than electric.

    Umm…

    Probably means the range, it’s probably 600-700 miles for a diesel hilux.

    And ‘slightly cheaper’, i guess it’s possible if you’re doing long journeys and having to charge at 85p/kwh regularly? It’s just not quite the right tool for that job just yet.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Probably means the range, it’s probably 600-700 miles for a diesel hilux.

    Yes, but the range of an EV and the range of an ICE are different concepts, really.  It doesn’t really matter for ICEs, and it doesn’t really matter for an EV if you can home charge, and it’s over abou 250 miles.  Because you can stop and recharge.  It almost sounds like they didn’t realise you don’t have to stop and queue at Tesla chargers – you can charge anywhere.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that long range sounds desirable but isn’t that just because the charging infrastructure isn’t there (yet)?

    I think it is.  On my regular stretch of M4 we had two or three chargers at each service station a year ago, now we have probably 50 in a 100 mile stretch, plus maybe 30 Tesla-only ones.  And there are loads and loads more just off the motorway.

    The biggest annoyance is reliability, which is improving as most new charger are new units; and the reporting of which chargers are free as this often seems to crap out.

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    the charging infrastructure isn’t there (yet)?

    It is and it isn’t.

    Stick to the motorway network or built up areas and there are usually plenty of chargers.
    Motorway ones are highly dependent on how busy the network is.
    I’d happily drive the 600 odd miles to Cornwall on a Tuesday in February but wouldn’t dare on a Saturday in July or August. There just aren’t enough chargers to cope with peak demand yet.

    whatgoesup
    Full Member

    The longest trip I “regularly” do is to see the in-laws (e.g. at Christmas) and it’s a 530 mile trip. So a 550 mile (winter) range EV sounds like a winner.
    But the battery is always going to be the most expensive and heaviest component on an EV. Does it really make sense to spec that to cope with the journeys that only happen a few times a year?

    at least two stops with a total stopped time of at least an hour.

    Also add in the several hours if not longer that the car is stopped whilst at the in-laws. As EV adoption becomes more common it’s not too far off in the future that you’d be able to plug in whilst you’re there more often than not, so the battery is full again for the return journey. If you’re stopping for a couple of days then a granny charger is perfectly viable assuming you’ve got access and a long enough lead etc.

    thols2
    Full Member

    And, fundamentally, I don’t want to buy another Tesla because of Elon Musk.

    Just in case anyone is in any doubt about full self drive not working as Musk claimed.

    https://electrek.co/2024/02/13/tesla-worker-died-horrible-crash-full-self-driving-beta-but-drunk/

    mert
    Free Member

    No car company has taken up Tesla’s offer to license FSD.In an earnings call, Elon Musk said it might be because they “still don’t believe it’s real.” He claimed that Tesla is still in talks with other automakers to license the advanced driver-assist feature, that despite the misleading name still requires driver’s to pay attention to the road while using.

    “Still in talks”
    It’s probably at the level of cold calling sales now.

    Alex
    Full Member

    Alex — hybrid possibly, and then re-evaluate in another couple of years time.

    Towbar and the like are a big hassle as far as I can see — not impossible, but likes of VW ID3 can’t even support roof bars and > 4 travellers, as it’s not rated for that (as far as I understand)


    @kcal
    – I did look at hybrid last time around but even then, 4 years ago, it felt like transitional technology. Having said that quite a lot of my driving used to be 10 miles or less (because of where we live and nothing being close) but we tend to use the EV for those trips nearly all the time now.

    I expect I’ll do nothing about it and either buy the Koraq or use the equity in it (quite a lot, great deal when I bought it, quite strong residuals) and buy a 2 year old Octavia estate. I’m a man of a certain age 😉

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Anyone want to buy a Leaf?

    stingmered
    Full Member

    Have you gone for the Ioniq 5? One thing I meant to ask, which battery has it got? And some of the flashier ‘nice to haves’ that are standard now were extras when it first came out.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Nah. I just realised that I preferred the Ioniq we used to have, so I’m seeing if I can swap it 🙂

    It’s an Acenta, which means it has adaptive cruise and auto braking, auto wipers and rear view, blind spot warning, heat pump, satnav, the telematics module so it can do live map updates and live traffic routing etc (if you subscribe).  It’s the 40kWh model.

    stingmered
    Full Member

    I meant which Ioniq 5 battery… go for it, you won’t regret it. (Maybe the finance manager will…)

    ichabod
    Free Member

    Hi Flaperon, I’d be able to use the referral code for Octopus, please DM if it’s available ta!

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    Hi Flaperon, I’d be able to use the referral code for Octopus, please DM if it’s available ta!

    Sent, thanks!

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