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  • The Electric Car Thread
  • DrP
    Full Member

    the Leaf is losing about 25% but even then the efficiency in terms of miles/kWh is only down about 10%.

    Ah..this simultaneously confuses me AND makes sense…

    I drove back from a mate’s yesterday am.. was 2 degrees C. It was a 75 mile journey.. in the cold, with motorways etc, the car averaged 3.8miles/kw.. so that SHOULD be roughly 21.5kWh.

    Which SHOULD be roughly 54% battery… BUT.. the car used about 80% battery.

    So in the cold, the economy is a BIT down, but the battery capacity is WAAAY down..is that correct?

    DrP

    pictonroad
    Full Member

    3yrs into EV ownership and nothing hammers the battery like a proper chilly day. The A27 froze last year and I got stuck in traffic for 2hrs. Had to abandon the journey as I wouldn’t have made it.

    No idea how they manage in big cold countries unless. Maybe it’s not a linear capacity degradation. 

    retrorick
    Full Member

    The Corsa e is averaging around 3.3m/KW with the cold weather. Went for a drive on Saturday along twisty country roads, over hills and dales with the heating on. Range started with a predicted 190 miles and we arrived home after 120 miles with 15 ‘remaining’. Warmer weather is forecast in 6 months and the car is still nice to drive so I’m ok with the reduced efficiency. 

    Are sodium or the iron phosphate batteries any better in cold temperatures than the common lithium ion batteries i currently have?

    wbo
    Free Member

    Speaking as someone who lives in a nordic country where electric cars are very common, if you really need the range, then charge in your garage. or get a car that preheats the battery so it will charge properly.  Leafs do NOT have this technology , so when you’re charging a cold Leaf, you can’t load as much power as on a warm day.

    There are two effects – the effects of an actual cold battery and how that limits charging and potential to discharge, and the extra energy to drive through, for example, slush.

    mert
    Free Member

    Ah..this simultaneously confuses me AND makes sense…

    Depends on the precise battery chemistry and layout.
    you lose massive chunks of power as the temperature gets to zero and below, and smaller, but still significant chunks of capacity.

    BUT, that’s the core battery temp. Not the ambient, not the temp in the cabin. A well designed battery will take at least a couple of days to get from running temp to a zero ambient, and another day to get to -10, some will also run their own internal diagnostics and heating if they have external power, or a full/reasonable charge level.

    Also, driving along at 100kph needs about 30-35 kW. Trying to *keep* a car warm using climate control at -10 takes another 4-5kW, heating it up from scratch will hit 7-9kW depending on your climate system. So on short slow journeys in low ambients, you might be using more energy to heat the car than move it.

    No idea how they manage in big cold countries unless.

    Pretty much every house and private parking space in a properly cold country will have at the very least a 240v outside socket to keep any car warm overnight, or to run a timed electrical heater. When i take BEVs home from work, i always plug it in to do a slow charge, which stops the battery cooling in low temps, or adds range in warmer ambients. So you can leave the house with a warm battery, warm cabin and whatever charge you’ve managed to get in! And that’s more than half the problem solved

    molgrips
    Free Member

    So in the cold, the economy is a BIT down, but the battery capacity is WAAAY down..is that correct?

    Yes that’s right. Temperature affects battery capacity and the poor Leaf is very exposed to that. Other cars have the ability to warm or cool the battery using waste or generated heat from the cabin or the motor etc, but not this one.

    You can however warm the battery up with a few hard accelerations, or a rapid charge. On Saturday I joined the M4 ten miles from home, the battery percentage dropped from 19% to 14% almost straight away. However, the remaining mileage started at 20 miles and finished at 19 miles whilst still showing 14%. The vague battery temperature gauge showed that some warmth had been added so maybe that changed how it was doing its estimates. After all, it can’t actually measure the remaining energy content of the battery, it uses the voltage as a proxy – and voltage vs state of charge varies by temperature.

    You can see from this graph that the same voltage refers to different states of charge depending on temperature (EDIT although looking at that, it appears to be a lead acid battery…??)

    mert
    Free Member

    Yeah, that’s a lead acid chart.

    Not that it matters, the basic shape of the curve is similar for most batteries.

    Mintyjim
    Full Member

    Someone asked earlier about the Tesla Y, I’ve had the base model since March and it’s brilliant.

    Loads of space, fantastic handling, great, usable tech. Just changed the rear tyres at 16k miles which I don’t think is bad.

    It’s a company car, but if I was to move jobs we would really miss it as our family car, but I couldn’t afford/justify buying my own sadly.

    It’s better in every way than my old 2016 BMW 335d estate. Including build quality.

    julians
    Free Member

    Interesting to hear about people experiences of how the cold affects the miles per kwh readings on various cars. I’m just a week into ownership of a merc EQC, which is known (I think) for not being mega efficient , I’m seeing an average of 2.3miles/kwh over 500 miles last week, this is a mix of very short journeys, maybe 1-3 miles, plus some medium ones (~20 miles) , and a long one (200 miles). Hoping efficiency will improve in the warmer weather…

    I’m quite liking the car , its a very refined drive, and a nice place to sit, but the app (and associated back end infrastructure) that allows you to remotely control the car/see charge levels, set preheating etc is unreliable, quite how it can be this bad is beyond me.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    A chunk of the range loss is directly due to cabin heating as can be checked by turning your heating on and off, at least in my car (Kia Soul) it can! And I haven’t even been driving in the recent frosty weather which will presumably be more demanding.

    The hot seat and steering wheel are negligible loads though, so I use them a lot and have the heating on fairly low.

    stingmered
    Full Member

    That’s good to know. I’ll stop admonishing the kids about using the rear heated seats constantly on high (one of them is 6 and has a child seat so doesn’t even feel the heat through it! 😂)

    DrJ
    Full Member

    the app (and associated back end infrastructure) that allows you to remotely control the car/see charge levels, set preheating etc is unreliable, quite how it can be this bad is beyond me.

    Car software seems to be universally rubbish. All the owners’ groups I see on facebook are full of complaints about flaky software. I think maybe we haev been spoiled by companies like Apple, Google etc who are really very good at this stuff.

    julians
    Free Member

    Car software seems to be universally rubbish

    I suspect a lot of the manufacturers just use a bought in system, change the skin so it has their branding & wording, but they all suffer the same problems.

    I was googling to see if others had experience the same issues with the mercedes app as I was seeing , and came across the porsche taycan forum with people moaning about the exact same error messages & scenarios as I was seeing with a mercedes.

    It really is a terrible app so far. The in car systems are all really good, no issues at all with any of that, but the app and its backend is just super flaky.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    A chunk of the range loss is directly due to cabin heating as can be checked by turning your heating on and off, at least in my car (Kia Soul) it can! And I haven’t even been driving in the recent frosty weather which will presumably be more demanding.

    It’s not a lot, if you have a heat pump. In eco mode, my car reports a difference of about four miles over a whole battery charge, it went up to five miles on Saturday in the cold. But I lost about 40 miles of range vs summer, despite the miles/kWh not being much lower.

    According to the energy monitor screen, when we set off in cold weather the heating uses nearly a kW, but this very quickly drops down to a small blip, around 300w or so, every five or ten seconds ish. It turns itself off and on all the time rather than run constantly. By comparison, the car is using 20kW or so just driving along. The lights and general car electronics consume about 350W constantly, more if the wipers are on.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    That surprises me, as I see something like a 10% difference in projected range immediately on the dashboard when I switch my heating on and off. Which admittedly isn’t as big as the effects some are reporting, but it’s definitely a fair chunk and on its own would knock 4.5mi/kWh down to about 4.

    I haven’t looked directly at power consumption but if my car used 20kW just driving along it would only do about 120 miles which is less than half its true range. Of course I’m mostly averaging 40mph on country lanes (based on: 64kWh battery = 3h or so at 20kW = 120 miles, or 128 if you’re being a pedant).

    snownrock
    Full Member

    Hi @molgrips we’re looking at a used Ioniq (38kwh prem SE). I would appreciate a quick summary of your owner experience (or a link to a previous post) if you’ve written it before. Real life economy, range etc.

    Around £13k for a 70 plate with 50k miles at the moment

    molgrips
    Free Member

    That surprises me, as I see something like a 10% difference in projected range immediately on the dashboard when I switch my heating on and off.

    Do you have a heat pump? If not, that would explain it.

    I would appreciate a quick summary of your owner experience (or a link to a previous post) if you’ve written it before.

    Summary:
    – Annoying infotainment, lots of pointless bings and bongs. On the other hand, it got live charging station data and routing (after an update) – but that may be a payable service after the first few years. Satnav also made odd choices but then it was in ‘most efficient’ route for a while which may account for it.
    – Good drive, a proper car-shaped car with car handling. Soft springs which made it comfy, a little bouncy at times on e.g. the bumps on the M4 by the old toll booth (if you know, you know) but the low centre of gravity meant not much body roll in corners
    – A bit slow for an EV, but not slow.
    – Interior a bit spartan, hard plastics etc but ours was only a premium not an SE. You’d get leather.
    – Well specified
    – The auto cruise and other driving aids worked well, for me – when the road got too narrow for the lane assist there’s a handy button to turn it off.
    – The efficiency was great – over 5 miles/kWh on long trips was often seen if there was plenty of A road, 4.8 on motorways in summer. The worst motorway trip was 4.3. My wife got over 5 most of the year on her commute. Our 2 year average was 4.7 over 15k miles
    – Worst indicated range at full charge was 175 or so, best 203 (which is actually more than the WTLP!)

    I moaned about the beeps and bongs at the time but I miss the car. It was significantly better for me than the Leaf, when driving any distance. Just a proper handling car type car without any weirdness. Seats were basic but well sorted. I slightly dread long trips in the Leaf because handling and comfort just aren’t quite right. The Ioniq was noisier, but it did have shitty OEM tyres on it the time we had it and the Leaf has Contis.

    I keep thinking I regret not buying another (or even our leased one) but I have to remind myself it was 50% more expensive. But still…

    Ewan
    Free Member

    Anyone got an MG4? I can get one through the company car scheme… Would be used as a run around rather than for anything long distance, would need to take a running pram and be up to taking abuse from todlers.

    snownrock
    Full Member

    Thanks @molgrips, great feedback, much appreciated

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    We’ve got an MG4 – its my wifes car but I drive it plenty. Real world winter range is still 200+ and she isn’t an economical driver.
    Its focus sized and a really nice drive. Enough poke without being crazy fast.

    She had to change cars when changing jobs as Tusker wouldnt switch the paperwork over. The old one was a Volvo XC40 recharge which she loved, and the MG4 compares really well. Much better than the price suggests.

    Alex
    Full Member

    @ewan

    Anyone got an MG4?

    We’ve had ours since May. 3000 miles ish. Mostly short journeys. Our is the SE (standard range) and in the summer we were getting nearly 200 miles to a charge (my wife is a pretty economical driver but it has done a lot of short < 5 mile) journeys.

    Other than lane assist, wide sills which does mean easier dragging dirt into the cabin, not heated seats on our version,  nothing to complain about. I really enjoy driving it, hardly ever use ‘sport’ mode, quiet, stereo is okay, carplay way more stable than my skoda, plenty of poke for overtaking, very easy to park (even without a camera)

    My Koraq is going back next year and I’m considering an MG5 to replace it. Been really impressed with the brand/price compared to other EVs.

    Ewan
    Free Member

    We’ve had ours since May. 3000 miles ish. Mostly short journeys. Our is the SE (standard range) and in the summer we were getting nearly 200 miles to a charge (my wife is a pretty economical driver but it has done a lot of short < 5 mile) journeys.

    Other than lane assist, wide sills which does mean easier dragging dirt into the cabin, not heated seats on our version, nothing to complain about. I really enjoy driving it, hardly ever use ‘sport’ mode, quiet, stereo is okay, carplay way more stable than my skoda, plenty of poke for overtaking, very easy to park (even without a camera)

    Sounds good. It’s mainly driving to my wifes school, me occasionally going to work, and then going to the shops. All probably 20 mile round journeys. Any must have extras? I’d want heated seats I guess in an EV.

    stingmered
    Full Member

    Car software seems to be universally rubbish

    Genuinely, the Hyundai app has been refreshingly good, it integrates really well with the car, does everything I need to do (and more, probably) but more importantly, always connects and never misses a beat. Compare this to the skoda app we also have which is an absolute disaster – given up with that completely. The in-car software has also been really good with the exception that on start-up an unnecessary ‘drive safely’ screen appears which you need to clear but sometimes the ‘confirm’ is greyed out for about 10 seconds.  There doesn’t seem to be a way round this. Other that this minor niggle, it’s great. I haven’t used car-play for 6 months, and I love car-play!

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    We went for the top spec trophy, which is £330/mo with Tusker All in for 10k/yr/4yrs. My wife wanted the 360 camera which her old XC40 had.

    Alex
    Full Member

    yeah if you want heated seats you have to go for trophy model. at that price difference, we didn’t want them that badly!

    molgrips
    Free Member

    on start-up an unnecessary ‘drive safely’ screen appears which you need to clear but sometimes the ‘confirm’ is greyed out for about 10 seconds. There doesn’t seem to be a way round this.

    On ours, it went away on its own after a few minutes, with no ill effects, but I think that whilst the version in the Ioniq 5/6 looks quite similar it is somewhat different in places.

    I wish I could have got rid of the f’in startup fanfare though.

    stingmered
    Full Member

    I’d ignore it, but if you’re in an unfamiliar place, and want to navigate somewhere, you have to get past that screen before accessing anything else including maps works – often it’s a case of not knowing which way to turn out of a car-park so you’ve got to wait patiently. As I said minor irritation but it’s something that could easily be deactivated. 

    My start-up fanfare is usually drowned out by kids squabbling or similar so no worries there.

    scotsman
    Free Member

    The wife picked up her Ioniq 6 Ultimate a couple of weeks ago from a dealer in Birmingham, full charge at 13 degrees showed 338 miles range, one stop at the new Ionity HC chargers in Carlisle for a top up to 87% in 23 minutes showed 289 miles of range at 7 degrees, charger pushing peak power was 228kw, I was quite impressed, then made it all the way home to Tullynessle in Aberdeenshire, really nice drive and I like the interior apart from some cheap plastic kicking around, and goes pretty well after years of German and Swedish estates.

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    I’m the same went from an A6 estate to an Ioniq 5 with no regrets. The price jump to get a comparatively specced Audi/ BMW/Merc EV was quite staggering.

    julians
    Free Member

    my merc app has now started working fine again, it was all offline for about 24 hours in the end. It does say that the in car communications module had a firmware update yesterday, so I presume this caused the outage.

    Hopefully it will remain stable now….

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Any must have extras [on MG4]?

    We got the Trophy because we wanted the 360 cameras and also the powered seat adjustment which makes it easier to swap between the missus and me. To get the same on an ID3, which we also looked at, would have cost zillions.

    Overall very happy with the car. Really nice to drive and I still can’t get over how you can creep along silently and then ZOOM past everything! The software has some glitches but then (as I mentioned above) that seems to be a common feature of EVs at this stage in their evolution.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    my wife is a pretty economical driver but it has done a lot of short < 5 mile) journeys.

    Short journeys don’t matter much to an EV. The main thing is overall speed, so motorway is bad for range, town is good. The opposite of ICE.

    julians
    Free Member

    Short journeys don’t matter much to an EV.

    It seems like they do matter – at least in the winter anyway (but I do only have a week of experience of this so far) – a short journey of a couple of miles is showing 1.7mpkwh, whereas a longer one (~15 miles) is showing 2.5mpkwh for me. I presume its down the to heating doing a load of work to warm the car up in those couple of miles.

    Can see how in the summer a short journey might not matter though.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I presume its down the to heating doing a load of work to warm the car up in those couple of miles.

    Yeah, that sounds right. It does work harder to begin with, but not a lot. I mean, short trips for me means < 5 miles. Very short trips are not particularly efficient, not least because they are usually pretty slow and not only does the motor efficiency drop off at very low speeds but the fixed background consumption of the car becomes more of a factor relative to the energy required to move.

    yosemitepaul
    Full Member

    Car software seems to be universally rubbish

    I think I’ve already had enough of the software in our Q4. Sometimes the app connects to the car, many times it doesn’t.
    The charging is unpredictable. I’ve read countless pages of forums, there’s no definitive solutions. Either the car isn’t talking to Intelligent Octopus, or IO isn’t talking to the car, or the PodPoint is playing up. Sometimes it charges as per schedule, other times it charges as soon as we plug it in with no schedule provided. Some days it charges to the 80% capacity, last week it repeatedly charged to 70%.
    This isn’t just a car, it’s a computer on wheels. If it doesn’t work then it’s unpredictably useless.
    I never switch on my Mac expecting somedays it’ll work on other days it won’t.
    We are paying huge sums to these manufacturers, they are churning out Beta editions of their vehicles.
    Rant over.

    wbo
    Free Member

    VW group software IS very bad, and is one of the reasons they’re struggling to shift cars, particularly id things

    revs1972
    Free Member

    We are paying huge sums to these manufacturers, they are churning out Beta editions of their vehicles.

    I was on the cusp of buying one of the new Lotus Eletre’s recently . Decided against it. There seem to be quite a few issues arising and it’s too expensive to be the Guinea pig. I’ll give it 12 months ( by which time there will probably something else to ping my interest)

    Flaperon
    Full Member

    I’ve gone right off the Tesla. The adaptive cruise control is so bad now that it’s unusable. When you’re driving on the motorway you get random emergency braking if the car nearby drifts in their lane, so you have to turn all the collision mitigation stuff off before you leave.

    To be honest, the behaviour of Musk was putting me off having another but this seals it. Worst thing is that it used to be fine on the motorway and now it’s awful. Everyone is assuming that Tesla drivers are brake-testing them and it’s just the car itself.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Hmm.. Is there perhaps a threshold of traffic above which it’s not worth using? I think adaptive cruise has to be an option not the default tool.

    dantsw13
    Full Member

    Interesting Flaperon – which model is that? recent software update? My mate has a Y and we often compare that and my Ioniq5. His Adaptive Cruise was really good when we car shared on the way to work recently.

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