The effect of a Scottish Yes vote on the rest of the UK?

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  • The effect of a Scottish Yes vote on the rest of the UK?
  • Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The thing is binners, despite your heart-felt political beliefs, do you really believe that things will be better for Scottish residents, especially those resident outside the southern belt, after a ‘yes’ vote?

    I’ll be honest with you, if it was me, I’d just be thinking that, whatever happens, Scotland can’t be worse served than they have been by successive Westminster governments. There are a lot of unknowns, and Alex Salmond is a slimy little twerp, but looking at the alternatives…..

    When Blair hollowed out the Labour Party, and turned it into Tory-lite, there ended even the remotest pretence that the political establishment gave a toss about Scotland, Wales, the north… anywhere outside London and the South East

    If I was offered an alternative, I think I’d be prepared to give it a shot. Its not like the no campaign can turn around and list the multitude of examples in which London Centric Neo Liberal policies have benefitted people in Glasgow, is it? Because they’ve benefited no-one outside the M25. The rest of the country is in … what was Thatchers term about the North… ‘Managed Decline’

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    But it’s not really right to blame the loss of industry on Westminster, which is what you were appearing to do.

    I’m not ‘appearing’ to do that, I am! Like I said, it wasn’t inevitable that British industry was uncompetitive, it was a result of government policy, and the adversarial industrial relations of the time. You think Germany and France didn’t subsidise their industries? The main difference was that they saw subsidies as investment, rather than handouts. It’s ironic because those subsidies in the 80s which were deemed to be unaffordable are now a subsidy of the formerly-working class (or underclass if you like, although I hate that phrase) in the form of benefits.

    Anyway, back on the subject of Scotland, I posted this on the other thread, but if you look at the independence question from the other way round, it’s a complete no-brainer – http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    I’ll be honest with you, if it was me, I’d just be thinking that, whatever happens, Scotland can’t be worse served than they have been by successive Westminster governments. There are a lot of unknowns, and Alex Salmond is a slimy little twerp, but looking at the alternatives…..

    So the primary argument is that we need change, this is a change, let’s do it?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    When Blair hollowed out the Labour Party, and turned it into Tory-lite, there ended even the remotest pretence that the political establishment gave a toss about Scotland, Wales, the north… anywhere outside London and the South East

    Hmm yes, but would he have been elected had he not done this?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    if you look at the independence question from the other way round, it’s a complete no-brainer –

    Yes, Monbiot having an opinion on something does make the decision a lot easier…

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    it wasn’t inevitable that British industry was uncompetitive, it was a result of government policy

    Don’t agree – it was inevitable that the industry needed restructuring away from unskilled and towards higher skilled. Now I dont have figures but I think there is still a lot of manufacturing in the North and it’s probably a lot higher value than it used to be.

    Premier Icon binners
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    But Molls the increase in high skilled manufacturing jobs in the North has taken place DESPITE government policy, not because of it.

    After the crash, what was the first thing the Tories did on arriving in office? They abolished the regional development agencies. I don’t think you could possibly have sent out a clearer message about the place of ‘the Regions’ in the grand scheme of things. They couldn’t give a toss!

    Take Burnley, for example. After the mass redundancies from BAE in Preston, they tried to keep the highly paid, skilled engineering jobs in the area by effectively acting as a bank, and encouraging hi-tech manufacturing to either set up, or expand, with grants, loans etc. Completely independent of central government. And its worked. Its been phenomenally successful, encouraging massive investment in the area. Particularly in Engineering. There was a southern Tory MP talking about this on 5 Live. He actually referred to this as being tantamount to communism!!!! Seriously! You couldn’t make it up!!!

    This is what devolved power could do with the right people, and some imagination, and knowledge, from people with the interests of their region at heart. I’d take a chance with this every time, as opposed to whatever unworkable, idealogical cobblers just emerged from some clueless right wing westminster think tank this week

    If the Scots gain their independence can anyone tell me how long we in England will have to continue to put up with their bloody whining, 5 years, 10, 20?

    whatnobeer
    Member

    If the Scots gain their independence can anyone tell me how long we in England will have to continue to out up with their bloody whining, 5 years, 10, 20?

    🙄

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    This is what devolved power could do with the right people, and some imagination, and knowledge, from people with the interests of their region at heart. I’d take a chance with this every time

    Me too – I’d take the benefits of regional autonomy without as many of the risks. Aka devo max.

    Let me clear this up – I am not defending government policy. I’m just questioning that they were responsible entirely for deprivation in the North.

    Roll your eyes all you want, if the Scots want out, good on them let them have it. London this, South east that, you down south don’t appreciate or care about us blah blah bloody blah. Like the vast majority of us down here are taking baths in asses milk and drinking champers for breakfast FFS. Nobody likes a whinger eh. Rather than change things in the framework of the UK go it alone, let us know how that works out for ya.

    Braveheart was historically inaccurate by the way.

    That was ALWAYS going to be moved to other countries because they can simply do it cheaper. It was inevitable, that’s got nothing to do with government policy.

    I seem to remember that this was a result of Government policy. In ’79 and ’83 the nation had the choice of this or withdrawl from the EU, trade tariffs and a semi planned economy. (At least I think thats what labour wanted at the time.)

    The only way round that is protectionism, and that never a good idea.

    That’s what 30 years of a market economy would have us belive. Some of us may be better off materially, but has it made Binners, or our friends in Scotland any happier?

    peterfile
    Member

    If the Scots gain their independence can anyone tell me how long we in England will have to continue to put up with their bloody whining, 5 years, 10, 20?

    Roll your eyes all you want, if the Scots want out, good on them let them have it. London this, South east that, you down south don’t appreciate or care about us blah blah bloody blah. Like the vast majority of us down here are taking baths in asses milk and drinking champers for breakfast FFS. Nobody likes a whinger eh. Rather than change things in the framework of the UK go it alone, let us know how that works out for ya.

    Braveheart was historically inaccurate by the way.

    Oh the irony.

    EDITED: thought better of being mean 🙂

    footflaps
    Member

    Braveheart was historically inaccurate by the way.

    You sure, I’ve seen statues and all that look just like him…..

    Premier Icon binners
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    Shouldn’t there be some kind of Iron Bru offering at the base of that statue?

    And yes I appreciate I was whinging but for f sake. Alex Salmond is a **** surely the scots can see that much?

    Premier Icon binners
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    They’re not voting for Alex Salmond though, are they? Or anyone else. He’s frankly incidental*. They’re voting for independence. Thats far bigger than any person, or party.

    * though I wouldn’t dispute your description

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky! Rivers and seas boiling!
    Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes!
    The dead rising from the grave!
    Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!
    And Binners being the voice of reason. Truly these are the end times

    footflaps
    Member

    We all know what’s coming after independence though:

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Next up…

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    I think you should check with Alex. Apparently a yes vote is a vote for him, a vote which gives him a mandate. At least I’m fairly sure that’s what he was saying recently.

    footflaps
    Member

    There should be some sort of warning before posting that sort of thing!

    This seems more like a teenager that’s going off to uni but on their dads ticket and calling it independence. Where are they going to raise capital, what about the NHS, their pensions deficit etc etc etc. This is a poorly thought through, emotional decision. They are going to end up at the station and realise they havent the cash for a ticket or the rent.

    If they go they should go 100% but that’s never going to happen is it.

    kjcc25
    Member

    Well it’s the end of my country, the UK, not even Hitler could do that!

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    I think you should check with Alex. Apparently a yes vote is a vote for him, a vote which gives him a mandate. At least I’m fairly sure that’s what he was saying recently.

    It doesn’t really matter what he thinks though. He’s there until the next election, then its all up for grabs again. Thats the problem with democracy, that even Alex Salmonds ego can’t get around

    Though I can imagine how he’d start acting after a yes vote….

    whatnobeer
    Member

    This seems more like a teenager that’s going off to uni but on their dads ticket and calling it independence

    Isn’t that what Scotland has now? Spend your pocket money how ever you life but we’ll tell you how much you get and why.

    mudshark
    Member

    not even Hitler could do that!

    Oops…

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Where are they going to raise capital, what about the NHS, their pensions deficit etc etc etc.

    That’s exactly the type of arrogant hubristic complacency which will result in them voting yes. It’s like a particularly nasty teacher at school telling you you’ll never amount to anything. The funny thing is that this is exactly what the government and other no campaigners are doing and then they wonder why they’re losing the argument!

    mudshark
    Member

    Life expectancy’s lower so less of a pension issue.

    That’s exactly the type of arrogant hubristic complacency which will result in them voting yes. It’s like a particularly nasty teacher at school telling you you’ll never amount to anything. The funny thing is that this is exactly what the government and other no campaigners are doing and then they wonder why they’re losing the argument!

    Yup damn people telling them to think about practical things and not make emotional decisions.

    rene59
    Member

    Message for joolsburger

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK0rN2e_5hI[/video]

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    aracer – Member

    I think you should check with Alex. Apparently a yes vote is a vote for him, a vote which gives him a mandate. At least I’m fairly sure that’s what he was saying recently.

    Oh go on, give us some examples.

    cfinnimore
    Member

    I wonder how many people there are who have not registered and are just planning on showing up.

    “Aye but, yes, but…”

    digga
    Member

    To me, the whole yes/no thing’s just a dreadful **** up. A huge diversion of resources that could be better employed on a multitude of other tasks.

    It’s a fantasy, the construction of an unctuous little egomaniac. It will be an utter mess if the Yes vote wins; bed for England but, sadly, even worse in for Scotland I believe.

    jambalaya
    Member

    AS is not so stupid as to say a Yes vote is a vote for him. However he is currently First Minister so he’ll be in charge until the next election.

    peterfile
    Member

    To me, the whole yes/no thing’s just a dreadful **** up. A huge diversion of resources that could be better employed on a multitude of other tasks.

    It’s a fantasy, the construction of an unctuous little egomaniac. It will be an utter mess if the Yes vote wins; bed for England but, sadly, even worse in for Scotland I believe.

    Yes, asking a country to decide on something so trivial as its independence is a diversion of resources that could be better employed elsewhere. You sound like Boris.

    rene 59, ah bless you, you little scamp. It must be difficult to talk with the grown ups.

    jambalaya
    Member

    @peter, it’s a diversion of resources for the rest of the UK who are mostly losing. I think this will be a factor in the negotiations as the UK has little incentive to agree to much as it’s all overhead for little benefit

    rossatease
    Member

    Who’s stupid idea was it to give them a choice? Honestly if any of us had a vote wether to be governed by the **** we have these days, we’d all vote for something different, but honestly do we want a flag like this?

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    digga – Member

    It’s a fantasy, the construction of an unctuous little egomaniac.

    Yup, he travelled back in time to 1934, 20 years before his birth, to create the SNP. Salmond’s an eminently punchable man but it’s completely absurd to suggest that the campaign towards independence over generations is all about him. I think you might be surprised the number of supporters for independence who think he’s a ****. But even we have to concede that he’s been a hugely effective ****.

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