I met a lassie in a pub in Portree who told me she hadn’t forgiven the Germans for the war.

She was referring to the Hanoverians and 1745

Did you need much convincing that Germany was at fault for Scotland’s problems in 1745? I bet not. Like putty in her hands I imagine.

I just find the accent(s) around Berwick a very interesting curiosity.

You’d think it would be somewhere between Northumbrian and southern Scots.

Bit it isn’t (to my ear anyway), it’s either or.

Another curiosity.

I was listening to England New Zealand rugby league on the way up the road yesterday.

Now if it was union I’d be vaguely supporting NZ, but I found myself supporting England in league.

Odd.

@Scotroutes

I met a lassie in a pub in Portree who told me she hadn’t forgiven the Germans for the war.

She was referring to the Hanoverians and 1745

What did she think of the Italian prince though?

She was referring to the Hanoverians and 1745

What did she think of the Italian prince though?

He was very Bonnie apparently.

Scotroutes story was amusing. Reminded me of a time I was drinking in a pub in New Zealand with a guy from Shetland who had quite a broad accent. We were chatting to a local lady who assumed he was putting on a voice and did thought Shetland was a made up place.

His reply was “Where do ye think the effing ponies come from!”

The comments are interesting…

Some Conservative opinion.

suprisingly informed and non ranty!  better than the leavers on the guardian comments but the disdain for the devolved administrations is pretty clear

tjagain

…but the disdain for the devolved administrations is pretty clear

It was ever thus in the colonies… 🙂

It was ever thus in the colonies…

Describing Scotland as a colony is hyperbole, but not so Wales. Or possibly Ireland, not sure.

Colonies usually had a government that could be over-ruled by Westminster and a governor-general to be the Westminster’s representative.

Scotland has a government that can be over-ruled by Westminster and a Secy of State to be the Westminster’s representative.

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, is treated like a duck, then it’s likely to be a duck. Quack 🙂

“If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, is treated like a duck, then it’s likely to be a duck. Quack”

I beg to differ.

Describing Scotland as a colony is hyperbole,

It plays to the poor oppressed victim mentality that the SNP adores.

Scotland has a government that can be over-ruled by Westminster

Except that Scotland has representation in Westminster. That’s the flaw in your argument.

My point was reference to the history. Wales was military conquered then occupied. Scotland wasn’t.

Colonies usually had a government that could be over-ruled by Westminster and a governor-general to be the Westminster’s representative.

Scotland has a government that can be over-ruled by Westminster and a Secy of State to be the Westminster’s representative.

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, is treated like a duck, then it’s likely to be a duck. Quack

Colonies don’t have direct representation in Westminster.

Once again stop with the oppressed card. It’s in your head and does your argument no favours.

American states for example can be overruled at the federal level, as can German states. This doesn’t make them colonies.

“ @patriotpro, if you honestly don’t understand the difference between being a member of the EU, and being part of the UK, I’d be surprised.”

Both are votes for sovereignty in which case it’s hypocritical to criticise those who essentially voted for the same thing as you did.

Those who say we had a vote in the EU; how so?

Those who say we had a vote in the EU; how so?

You had representatives who could vote on legislation, just like you do in the UK.

It plays to the poor oppressed victim mentality that EPICYCLO adores.

FTFY

scotroutes

It plays to the poor oppressed victim mentality that EPICYCLO adores.

I expect the usual superior sneery shit from the BritNats, but that’s unpleasantly personal coming from you.

For the record I do not feel oppressed, but I want to do something about oppression.

The weak and vulnerable in Scotland are living under oppressive conditions and foodbanks are burgeoning. If we can get Scotland’s governance and finances in our own hands and unable to be over-ridden by Westminster, that would be a start.

But there is also the long history of oppression in Scotland of various groups and families, and much of it from our own ruling classes (before anyone thinks I’m blaming the English for it). That’s the past, but there’s a lesson to be learned from it, and that lesson is we need control of our own country.

The weak and vulnerable in Scotland are living under oppressive conditions and foodbanks are burgeoning. If we can get Scotland’s governance and finances in our own hands and unable to be over-ridden by Westminster, that would be a start.

But this is happening all over the UK.  You don’t seem bothered when it happens to anyone in England, because they aren’t Scottish.  Now, you could say that ‘oh but England is Tory’ and yes, that’s true, but only by virtue of that invisible line that is as I’ve said is so arbitrary.

The poor of England who have voted for left wing parties do not deserve to be kept weak and vulnerable any more than those in Scotland do.  But you’re willing to wash your hands of those on this side of the line because others on the same side of the line voted for it.

Both are votes for sovereignty in which case it’s hypocritical to criticise those who essentially voted for the same thing as you did.

Those who say we had a vote in the EU; how so?

EU membership doesn’t affect the sovereignty of the member countries.

If you think the UK has surrendered its sovereignty to the EU, how are we going to leave? Logically it must be impossible, surely?

molgrips

…But this is happening all over the UK.  You don’t seem bothered when it happens to anyone in England, because they aren’t Scottish…

That’s because I think the English are perfectly entitled to run their own country without interference from other countries. What are the English doing about it?

That’s because I think the English are perfectly entitled to run their own country without interference from other countries. What are the English doing about it?

England and Scotland are both run by the UK.

We know what the Scottish are doing about it: they voted to retain the current arrangements.

We know what the Scottish are doing about it: they voted to retain the current arrangements.

You can’t get around that epicyclo. The scots want to be british for the timebeing.

seosamh72

You can’t get around that epicyclo. The scots want to be british for the timebeing.

Aye, right.

It’s a simple fact borne out a majority vote, you can’t waffle on about democracy and not recognise that. Do you honestly think if there was a ref tomorrow it would win?

As well as the majority wanting to be British, at the moment. They are also shite bags, when it came to the ballot box, loads would keek it to be out of the EU and out of the British union, and would believe the torrent of fear mongering that would come our way.

I predict a ref in the next 1/2/3 years would result in a scudding, and if you are a nationalist wanting a ref in those couple of years, you are also off your nut. You’ll kill it stone dead for 30/40 years.

Hold your guns and let Brexit play out over the short to medium term.

England and Scotland are both run by the UK.

Not in his world. He is of the belief Scotland is an oppressed little nation under the cruel jackboot of our English overlords, with an occupying army opposed only by the plucky little bunch of SNP freedom fighters.

It’s only a matter of time before the tyrants in Westminster pass laws to criminalise deep-frying and Irn-Bru, where illicit Braveheart DVDs are smuggled around under kilts and where the downtrodden masses huddle together in their but and bens to pray for the return of their saviour, St Sean the Untaxable.

Both are votes for sovereignty in which case it’s hypocritical to criticise those who essentially voted for the same thing as you did.

I voted to remain in the UK and the EU, and in fairly equal measure feel Scottish, British and European. I have said I would quite happily amalgimate remain voting areas into one new country with the aim of rejoicing the EU. In reality this is not possible. What may be possible, is the ability to join in a political and social entity that is inclusive of the greatest number of people. This may best be achieved through Scotland leaving the UK and joining the EU. It depends on what some of Europes leaders say, and my feelings towards the EU and the UK are at the time.

I am certainly no SNP supporting ScotNat, and I do find many I have met and epicyclo’s historic victimhood complex very off putting in relation to my potential support.

What are the English doing about it?

The North isn’t looking to secede. Should they? Is that the answer?

What are the English doing about it?

Well Cameron did suggest a couple of pretty minor changes but the more nutty ScotNats got a tad excited about the entire affair.

Well Cameron did suggest a couple of pretty minor changes

Who?? The name sounds vaguely familiar.

The scots want to be british for the timebeing

Don’t you mean a majority of the people who voted in IndyRef wanted to remain in the UK?

no.

molgrips

The North isn’t looking to secede. Should they? Is that the answer?

Shouldn’t you be asking them that?

they thought about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_East_England_devolution_referendum,_2004

I largely agreed with your earlier post, but this

They are also shite bags, when it came to the ballot box, loads would keek it to be out of the EU and out of the British union,

Classy!

perhaps, but true though. uncertainty doesn’t make people brave.

Anyhow, given the brexiteers shambolic snatch and grab on precarious majority, the idea of the same thing happening with scotland stinks. Ye want to see the polls hitting about 60% before you call a 2nd ref.

I expect the usual superior sneery shit from the BritNats, but that’s unpleasantly personal coming from you.

If it’s unpleasantly personal it’s because I think that talk of colonies and oppression is counter-productive (see later comments from others) and you seem to be the only poster on this – and other – threads using that sort of language. Independence won’t come through turning off the more moderate voters.

You don’t seem bothered when it happens to anyone in England, because they aren’t Scottish.  Now, you could say that ‘oh but England is Tory’ and yes, that’s true, but only by virtue of that invisible line that is as I’ve said is so arbitrary.

The poor of England who have voted for left wing parties do not deserve to be kept weak and vulnerable any more than those in Scotland do.  But you’re willing to wash your hands of those on this side of the line because others on the same side of the line voted for it.

Why should the voters of Scotland restrict themselves to helping out the English and Welsh when they could be part of the EU and helping out all those folk? Is that because of some arbitrary line you’ve drawn through the English Channel?

Shouldn’t you be asking them that?

I might but now I’m asking you.

Why should the voters of Scotland restrict themselves to helping out the English and Welsh when they could be part of the EU and helping out all those folk? Is that because of some arbitrary line you’ve drawn through the English Channel?

I’m a federalist now, so no. In my United States of Europe I might well have the constituents of the UK with equal status. And Catalonia, and Basque country and whatever else. You could split up however you felt like because you’d still be part of a big hitter organisation as well.

I think Scot’s do have some of the characteristics of a colonised nation.

Was there an attempt to get political control over Scotland by another country? Yes

Was there an attempt to devalue the indigenous cultures ? Yes

Was there forced mass migration? Yes particularly in the Highlands.

Was there an attempt to prevent people from speaking their own language? Yes. Scots speakers were told that their language was good enough for the playground but not for the classroom. Gaelic was banned. In the mid 70s my ex wife was belted for speaking Gaelic in the playground.

The fact that the majority of these policies were carried out by other Scots doesn’t mean that it’s not colonisation. Many empires had one group or another who got preferential treatment because they were useful in controlling the rest of an indigenous population. Their reward would be to consider themselves a better class of people than the other indigenous people.

This can lead to a community who feel disenfranchised and disengaged from society. It certainly affects the Highlands today.

There’s a good book by James Hunter called On the Other Side of Sorrow which explains the ongoing effect of the clearances etc on the present day Highlands.

It’s history though gordi, I’m well aware of it. but it doesn’t really have any relevance to the independence argument, it’s entirely counter productive. There’s many aspects of scotland even in more recent history you could bring up, but looking forward, what the point? Surely if independence is anything it’s about imagining a brighter future?