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The Dissolution of the Union started today….
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athgrayFree Member
It is quite close at the minute. Support one way or the other does ebb and flow fairly regularly. The UK had a temporary reprieve when the BBC altered its weather map to be more representative the relative size of Scotland in relation to England. The UK however is hindering itself due to the lack of Scottish actors in Jane Austen TV adaptations. The coming few weeks will be interesting, as the 1000 new members the SNP received will be nothing compared to new members joining them if England put up a good and brave performance at the World Cup.
ScottCheggFree MemberWatching that pantomime yesterday was a lesson in petulance and stroppiness that would get a 6 year old a telling off.
The fat lady in the pink jacket waving at Bercow as she left showed how clever they thought they were being. And the after party when they were being interviewed and all nodding like dogs in the back window of a car was cringeworthy.
All MP’s are poor excuses for human beings; the SNP are currently the worst of a bad pile.
Cut Scotland loose; and good riddance.
Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition
Latest Singletrack VideosFresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...bedmakerFull MemberAll MP’s are poor excuses for human beings; the SNP are currently the worst of a bad pile.
I have no fondness for politicians, but that is far from true.
gordimhorFull MemberPiemonster I suspect you’re right about the entrenched views and that the new SNP members will have been yes voters already. Although I see Murray Foote has joined and he wrote that Vow
gordimhorFull Member@ScottChegg good work keep it up
@athgray I’m getting well used to Scotland not qualifying for tournaments but this time around I have no interest in the tournament at all.13thfloormonkFull MemberI bottled it last time and voted no (last minute swithering) as I realised I had it pretty good under the status quo and my industry is a little sensitive to economic uncertainty.
However, I would be a solid yes now as the whole sorry Brexit mess has shown that (rightly or wrongly) Westminster just doesn’t represent Scotland, and I resent being dragged down/out with little England. If we’re going to be subjected to any economic uncertainty I’d rather it be due to our own decision and not someone else’s.
Plus, theatrics aside, the derision shown towards the SNP even before they pulled their stunt (15 minute debate, effectively filibustered by a Conservative, on a subject that until now the SNP have had no say in as they are unrepresented in the HoL? Pretty poor) had me convinced.
Still not sure what I’d rather endure though, more Brexit nonsense or another Indy Ref. What I’d give for a government that just focused on the small stuff, maybe building a few more schools, houses and hospitals, creating some jobs AND maybe mitigating some of the perceived problems of immigration. But oh no, it’s all Hinckley Points, Garden Bridges, HS2, and **** Brexit…
dissonanceFull Memberon a subject that until now the SNP have had no say in as they are unrepresented in the HoL?
That needs correcting to be
” on a subject that until now the SNP have had no say in as they have chosen to be unrepresented in the HoL”
tonyg2003Full MemberDeath has culled quite a few of them and will take even more before another referendum/election, and I doubt that many would believe that lie now.
Some really disappointing language here from the OP. “culling of old people”. Really how insensitive. I’ve had two close elderly relatives die this year and to hear this term is really offensive to me and I sure others.
I have no opinion here as a non-scot. If you get a majority to leave then so be it, independent Scotland. Although not allowing people born in Scotland to vote isn’t really democracy as most countries see it. Imagine if you were born outside Scotland and moved back as an infant, how would you feel.
eat_the_puddingFree MemberYup, as I thought ..
Much discussion of “the flounce” and no discussion of the fact that the SNPs own growth commission report shows that “project fear” was right on the button economically, and that an independent Scotland would lose 13Bn a year (about 10% of the budget and the cost(ish) of the NHS in Scotland).
We would have massive austerity (an order of magnitude larger than that from westminster), the pound, and no EU membership until we balanced the books (10 years under the SNPs very positive growth projections, so maybe 25, maybe more).
The SNP can’t win the economic argument (and they never could without lying), so they’ve taken to flouncing and behaving like a teenager instead of trying to fix the mess they’ve made of schools and the NHS (both of which the SNP has decided needed smaller % rises in budget than their english equivalents under tory rule over the last 10 years).
I’m not a brexiter or a tory, but that doesn’t mean I have to support nationalist grievance over good government.
Its almost like the SNP is scared of making things better with the powers that they have. Wonder why?
rene59Free MemberYesterdays ‘stunt’ done it’s job. People are now talking about it and the media are reporting on the reasons why they done it which they wouldn’t be doing otherwise.
gordimhorFull MemberEat the Pudding How long will it take the UK to balance the books?
BruceWeeFull MemberYou do realise that after independence other parties will be available? Not only that, your vote will make a difference to the way the country is governed, unlike now.
Or is your point that Scots are incapable of voting for the correct party?
mrmoFree MemberEat the Pudding, and how well will the UK do after Brexit? Scotland will take a hit via both approaches. the EU one though gives hope of a turn around, staying with the UK is crash and burn.
BruceWeeFull MemberI honestly believe that if the SNP switched their focus from joining the EU to joining the EEA then it would convince many No voters of the benefits of independence.
Most of the advantages of EU membership (and fewer questions about whether we would get in or not) and control over various matters that are important for various regions in Scotland. Fishing and agriculture being the most obvious examples.
BruceWeeFull MemberI forgot to mention, assuming the UK ends up going for a hard border, EEA membership doesn’t require membership of the customs union so there would be no need for a hard border between England and Scotland.
If the UK decides to stay in the Customs Union (good luck squaring that circle) then there is also no need for a hard border.
NobeerinthefridgeFree MemberAgree BruceWee.
Eatthepudding, the NHS in Scotland is a mess? really?
eat_the_puddingFree MemberYes yes, I’m sure there are other parties and many valid ways to make Scotland an economic powerhouse in no time flat which invalidate the predictions of the SNPs own (much sat on, delayed, edited, reedited, rescued from the leopard and finally published) growth report.
They just didn’t think to include them.
The report confirms that GERS is good data (hi zoomers :O), and tries to say how we would get out of the hole Scotlands finances would leave us in if independent. It fails, except in listing of other small countries which aren’t us and don’t have the SNP in power.
For extra giggles, lets look at the benefits of devolution using the example of Scotland controlling welfare benefits and taking powers from the evil westmonster controlled DWP shall we?
Oops, we can’t, because the people who were going to set up a whole country for £400million in 2 years can’t set up a partial benefits system in 4 (and have hidden the cost). They’ve actually asked the DWP to keep being evil to the people of Scotland. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14885035.SNP_criticised_for_leaving_welfare_powers_with_Whitehall/
But by all means, lets get angry about the lack of devolution.
athgrayFree MemberThat’s the problem gordihmor. There are parallels between Brexit and Scottish independence. Another ref will be along, which provides me with an ‘either or’ scenario, with regard to unions when it should have been both.
People do not berate the EU for having article 50 and not negotiating prior to Britians formal request to leave, yet were expecting Westminster to lay out plans for a relationship with an independent Scotland long before the Indyref.
We also blame Brexiteers and the UK for not knowing how a border with Ireland will look. If we vote to leave the UK, no doubt the UK will also get it in the neck for not having a border with Scotland sorted out.
Any uncertainty over currency or trade arrangements between Scotland and rUK will undoubtedly be the UK’s fault as it it is with Brexit.
As mentioned 1000 new SNP members may not be significant if they were all ready supporters. Does this mirror that there may be people who were floaters who may now vote Indy?
I can weigh up the options, but hope it is not made harder by vocal flip flopping by the usual suspects, whose BS I have no wish to trawl through to make a decision.Henry McLeish is someone I have respect for on the subject, and would happily swap his opinions in The National, for the drivel spouted by Kevin McKenna in his Observer opinion column.
McLeish sums up feeling to his own party that largely mirror mine. Ineptitude, and weakness. A semi decent proper leader would be trouncing to Tories at the polls just now. I certainly cannot vote for them right now.
eat_the_puddingFree MemberPS. The UK as a whole also has a deficit, but not one which would prevent it from joining the EU. (Like Scotlands)
PPS. Brexit will be bad, Scottish independence would be worse. If flouncing from a “union” and separating yourself off from your best customers and strongest partners causes economic hit, then why would compouding that with departure from a longer lasting more integrated union (in addition, not instead of) suddenly bring benefits?
PPPS I didn’t say the NHS in scotland was a mess, only that it was underfunded (given less cash) relative to England. Same with education. Same with councils (given and 8%? cut on the back of 2% austerity from Westminster).
Stop getting outraged and watching the flouncers and instead watch what they’re trying to distract you from.
BruceWeeFull MemberEEA membership wouldn’t impede trade with England but regulatory alignment with the EU in many areas would allow us to minimise disruption to businesses that rely on EU trade.
I’ll stop now as I’m getting dangerously close to ‘have cake and eat it’ 😉
eat_the_puddingFree MemberBruceWee
I don’t think I’ve said anything about the EU apart from the fact that I don’t want to leave.
Regardless of the details of future relationships I’m just pointing out that brexit plus scottish independence is not stupidity halved, its stupidity squared,
epicycloFull Member<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>eat_the-pudding</span>
<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>….PPPS I didn’t say the NHS in scotland was a mess, only that it was underfunded (given less cash) relative to England. Same with education. Same with councils…</span>
Thanks for highlighting the need for the people of Scotland being able to make their own decisions.
As for the SNP’s growth report, if it didn’t work out we can soon fix that by voting for a different government.
I’m not going to argue the economic case because the economic forecasts are political conjecture. Just about every country seeking independence from the UK has been subjected to a barrage of doom and gloom, you’re too wee, too unsophisticated, too stupid, etc.
Shows me any independent country that is seeking to come back under UK domination because it cannot handle its own economy.
How about this country which was supposedly incapable? Does it want back?
NobeerinthefridgeFree MemberPPPS I didn’t say the NHS in scotland was a mess
Errr….
The SNP can’t win the economic argument (and they never could without lying), so they’ve taken to flouncing and behaving like a teenager instead of trying to fix the mess they’ve made of schools and the NHS
MTTFree MemberI’m in Athens, the taxis, bin men, trams and busses are all on strike, called with a few hours notice, extended with no notice. It could be worse…
piemonsterFull Member“History has a way of repeating itself.”
Id rather not follow the Balkan model if I’m honest!
BruceWeeFull MemberRegardless of the details of future relationships I’m just pointing out that brexit plusscottish independence is not stupidity halved, its stupidity squared,
I don’t know what to tell you then, you seem to have made up your mind and that’s it. Most of the arguments you’ve used have been based on SNP policies. I and others have pointed out that the SNP is not necessarily going to be in charge of the transition (and if it is it will be a very different SNP to the one that currently exists, much like Theresa May, Nicola Sturgeon won’t be able to square things with all the factions)
Any arguments you’ve used that don’t involve the SNP, the border between England and Scotland for example, I think I’ve made a good effort to show possible solutions that you haven’t argued against yet.
Ignoring SNP policies, what are your objections?
gordimhorFull MemberEat the Pudding The Scottish government has been in negotiations with the UK government for over a year on the EU withdrawal bill and despite some progress ended up with no agreement. They then took this position to Holyrood and got the backing of Labour, Libdems and Greens to withhold consent. David Mundell then told them that withholding consent would be deemed to be consent in the UK government’s eyes.
So we move onto Westminster where they are told by Mundell again that there will be time to debate and put forward amendments after the EU withdrawal bill comes back from the Lord’s. What happened 15 minutes for debate entirely used up by one minister no SNP members get to speak so none of their amendments can go forward and when you raise a point of order about this you are advised to consider suicide.
It’s not much of a union is it?
To be honest I think the walk out was a good means of publicising a UK government using parliamentary procedure to stifle debate. I wish the SNP had done so a lot sooner
GERS figures do give some guidance as to how an independent Scotland might fare but they are a measure of how Scotland’s economy is doing in the union. Ian Lang set GERS up specifically to weaken the argument for independence
BruceWeeFull MemberI’m in Athens, the taxis, bin men, trams and busses are all on strike, called with a few hours notice, extended with no notice. It could be worse…
Norway, Sweden, Denmark…
It could be a lot better too.
piemonsterFull Member“Death has culled quite a few of them and will take even more before another referendum/election,”
Well, that’s pretty repulsive of you. FFS.
Although I’ve seen the same said by remain voters in the EU farce.
mrmoFree Member“History has a way of repeating itself.”
Id rather not follow the Balkan model if I’m honest!
The way things are going! I am no longer of the opinion that it isn’t an outcome. Ireland didn’t leave the Union peacefully. A hard brexit where the ports and airports shut down is going to end VERY badly.
epicycloFull Memberpiemonster
“Death has culled quite a few of them and will take even more before another referendum/election,”
Well, that’s pretty repulsive of you. FFS.
It’s a pragmatic reality affecting the likely % of support for independence, not my personal desire. One of the dead was a personal friend.
I do not wish death on older voters – I’m in that demographic. 🙂
BoardinBobFull MemberJust signed up as a paid member of the SNP. And I voted no in the Indy Ref!
The sooner we’re split from the UK the better
eat_the_puddingFree Memberepicyclo, you realise that all decisions about how much money is given to NHS schools and councils are already made by the Scottish Parliament don’t you? How does that highlight the need for “the people of Scotland to make their own decisions”.
Unless you mean make better decisions? (I would concur)
Nobeerinthefridge. Good point, I was thinking about NHS and education funding when I wrote. Lets say that the SNP has decided to spend proportionately less on the NHS and education that the tories in England. But while education is a complete mess, the NHS seems to be doing relatively OK, apart from the whole A&E and cancer waiting time thing.
BruceWee “the arguments you have made are based on SNP policies” I know other policies are available, but they don’t change the economic facts. If there was a good economic basis for independence would the SNP have spent years trying to find it and then published the report on a bank holiday Friday and then lied about its contents (Sturgeon saying that its economic guidelines would have “prevented austerity”).
Gordimhor The GERS figures are put together by statisticians working in Scotland, employed by Nicola Sturgeon. They were the central plank of the book of dreams put out by the SNP before the 2014 referendum. They are also the central plank of the more realistic but still a bit dreamy growth report. They are equivalent or better than any statistics you see about any countries economic performance.
Just because something is an estimate doesn’t mean its not accurate.
scotroutesFull MemberYes might be polling higher than it was at the start of the last campaign but there are far fewer Undecideds to win over now. The vast majority have already decided and are unlikely to be swayed by more campaigning or by unfolding events.
Of course, there are those for whom the SNP offer the “wrong kind” of independence, many of whom also believe that Corbyn will sweep to power and usher in a new era of left-wing politics. They are, frankly, delusional. Corbyn has already shown that he has no appetite for leadership and the English majority would rather eat their own livers with a blunt spoon than vote for him.
Then there are those who can most kindly be referred to as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Visible on this very thread. As Epicyclo suggests, many of this group can never be un-conditioned as they’ve suffered too long. Thankfully a younger demographic has grown up more aware of both long-past and more recent history. A long game would suggest delaying any further referendum but then there’s the question of how much damage will need to be undone.
eat_the_puddingFree MemberI notice no-one has jumped in to defend the SNPs failure on benefits outlined above as a triumph for devolution, and an excuse for more?
Also, in the context of this thread, this is quite interesting;
https://twitter.com/JournoStephen/status/1006968577101090816
km79Free MemberEvery government has failures. The Scottish government has them now and will have them in future whether independent or not regardless of what party is in power. Unless you can show me a flawless government then it has nothing to do with the independence question.
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