The Dissolution of the Union started today….

Home Forum Chat Forum The Dissolution of the Union started today….

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 292 total)
  • The Dissolution of the Union started today….
  • Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    cynic-al

    What about Wales, Ireland and now NI?

    They were not signatories to the Treaty of Union, but a later incorporation by Westminster.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Again, read the Act of Union. I’ll quote someone who can say it better than me…

    Nation, not nation state. Scotland cannot negotiate separate international terms because, like England, it is only one part of a larger state.

    We do not need England’s permission to dissolve the Treaty (as in England, the other party to it).

    Indeed, which is why the independence referendum was only open to Scotland. A majority voted to retain the union.

    Back of the class for you.

    sbob
    Member

    I think you folks are confusing Kingdoms with nations.

    My helicopter quote was meant to pre-empt this descent into an argument about semantics.

    A kingdom is a nation ruled by a monarch, that’s all.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    ransos

    …Back of the class for you.

    Nah, we’re finished with being told what to do by the country next door.

    …Indeed, which is why the independence referendum was only open to Scotland. A majority voted to retain the union…

    Indeed, and if the promises made then had been kept there would not be this pressure to get out of this toxic relationship.

    And next time, the dead will not be voting…

    Premier Icon kilo
    Subscriber

    Nah, we’re finished with being told what to do by the country next door.

    What Norway?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Nah, we’re finished with being told what to do by the country next door.

    You’re told what to do by the UK, just like England, because of the treaty you signed. You had the opportunity to dissolve that treaty, and chose not to.

    If you’re looking for someone to blame, look closer to home.

    piemonster
    Member

    Good luck with that

    athgray
    Member

    The union of Scotland occured through the middle ages. At the time Gaels and Scots were prevalent in the West. Norse controlling the North, Picts holding sway in the NE, with Britons and Angles through what are today’s central belt and Southern uplands. Treaties, unions and feud would eventually lead to Robert the Bruce leading forces to victory in 1314. The Declaration of Arbroath less than 400 years before the Treaty of Union in 1320 effectively cemented the independence of the Scottish nation. The Scotland we know today came into being in the second half of the 15th century just over 200 years before the the Treaty of Union, during a period when Norway pawned away control of oil rich Orkney and Shetland to Scotland to raise funds for a marriage dowry.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    ransos

    You’re told what to do by the UK, just like England, because of the treaty you signed. You had the opportunity to dissolve that treaty, and chose not to….

    And that would be lovely if it was true. However, Westminster is dominated by English MPs, and thus what England wants is what the rest of us get.

    It isn’t working for Scotland.

    As for the last Independence Referendum, if the promises made had been kept, we probably wouldn’t have such a growing demand for independence.

    Surely you can see the advantages of an England unfettered by all those Scottish subsidy junkies?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    And that would be lovely if it was true. However, Westminster is dominated by English MPs, and thus what England wants is what the rest of us get.

    It may suit your purposes to blame England, but an alternative course of action was within your gift. You are authors of your own misfortune.

    As for the last Independence Referendum, if the promises made had been kept, we probably wouldn’t have such a growing demand for independence.

    Demand for independence appears to be shrinking, not growing. I’m sure you’ll find a way of blaming that on England.

    BruceWee
    Member

    That’s something I’ve never understood about the English people who ridicule Scottish independence.  Surely you’d be better out without a nation of scroungers dragging you down.

    Seriously, why do you want us to stay?  Or do you not and you just enjoy laughing at how **** we’re going to be after independence?

    sbob
    Member

    Westminster is dominated by English MPs

    We had a Scottish Prime Minister, just how Scottish does our democracy need to be?

    I repeat: it does not legislate that the greater the population in number, the greater the say in domestic affairs, and all international political matters

    Ah, I see I have asked the wrong question… 😉

    Premier Icon imnotverygood
    Subscriber

    Seriously. What evidence do you have that support for Independence has grown since the referendum?

    sbob
    Member

    That’s something I’ve never understood about the English people who ridicule Scottish independence. Surely you’d be better out without a nation of scroungers dragging you down.

    Seriously, why do you want us to stay? Or do you not and you just enjoy laughing at how **** we’re going to be after independence?

    I wouldn’t ridicule the idea of independence however I do believe (like Brexit) that it will be bad for both parties and (also like Brexit) worse for the smaller party.

    piemonster
    Member

    “Seriously. What evidence do you have that support for Independence has grown since the referendum?”

    It’s not really moved with any meaning for some time now.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    That’s something I’ve never understood about the English people who ridicule Scottish independence.  Surely you’d be better out without a nation of scroungers dragging you down.

    Seriously, why do you want us to stay?  Or do you not and you just enjoy laughing at how **** we’re going to be after independence?

    Alternatively, take the chip off your shoulder. I think that Scotland should act in accordance with the wishes of its population. It doesn’t especially bother me if it’s independent or not.

    sbob
    Member

    Oh dear, I’ve fallen into a political debate.

    Cheese it!

    #notaflounce

    Premier Icon sadmadalan
    Subscriber

    The SNP are trying a power grab and the flouncing out of the commons is just one way they are trying to have their cake.  The powers retained by the UK Government are expressly defined in the devolution settlement, everything else is assumed to be devolved.  Since the settlement more parts have been devolved, including tax raising powers.

    However the settlement excluded powers which have been taken over by the EU.  After all we would never be so stupid to leave the EU.  These powers may include powers which the UK Government would not have devolved to Scotland in the devolution settlement.  As such the UK Government wants to work out which ones it will retain.

    The SNP want to have all the powers that are currently with the EU – so we have a grab for them from the SNP and a claim that they are being marginalised because the UK Government is treating them like a whining child.  Scotland also claims that the UK Government should treat them as an equal, which is never going to happen.  Scotland is part of the UK and as such the UK Parliament (which includes representatives from Scotland) as advice.  This will probably end up in the Supreme Court, which sits above the English/Welsh and Scottish legal systems.

    In the meantime I expect more flouncing by the SNP in both Holyrood and Westminster.  If the SNP were actually any good at running a country I may listen to them, but their track record is no better and sometimes worse than nay bunch at Westminster

    And don’t forget your booties, ’cause it’s cooooold outside!

    BruceWee
    Member

    Actually, after Brexit, 25% of the population changed their mind.  Many independence voters wanted out of the EU and out of the union.  Brexit is close enough so they now support the Union.  The other half decided they wanted to stay in the EU.  1 in 4 changed their mind but they cancelled each other out.

    I do think if the SNP would just drop full EU membership and support EEA membership instead then that could win over many current No voters.  Especially if it was emphasised that we would have many of the benefits of EU memberships but still able to retain control of agriculture and fishing.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    My fellow Englishmen, talking as if Scotland is annexed, or just a region of England, are fuelling the end of the Union (something I don’t want to see happen). English nationalism is getting dirtier, more xenophobic, and drunk on its own recent “democratic” successes… attitudes towards Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, Poland etc is turning everyone against us. We’re seen as enjoying making things difficult for everyone else, and treating any downsides for ourselves as a price worth paying for inflicting damage on others. You’d avoid a person with character traits like that, wouldn’t you? You definitely wouldn’t want to be married to them.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    My fellow Englishmen, talking as if Scotland is annexed, or just a region of England, are fuelling the end of the Union (something I don’t want).

    That seems to be the line peddled by the Scots Nats here.

    tjagain
    Member

    The powers retained by the UK Government are expressly defined in the devolution settlement, everything else is assumed to be devolved

    Sadmadallan

    this is simply not correct.  the power grab is actually devolved areas that were partly under EU rules being grabbed back to Westminster instead of being devolved as they should be under the Scotland act.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    imnotverygood

    Seriously. What evidence do you have that support for Independence has grown since the referendum?

    Apparently the SNP picked up another 1,000 new members in the afternoon since the walkout.

    Maybe the fact the the SNP is the 3rd largest political party in the United Kingdom, and that with a population base restricted to about 10% of the total.

    Imagine if you had that rate of participation in the other parties…

    Bear in mind the SNP is just a part of the independence movement and is far from active enough for most people supporting independence.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Bear in mind the SNP is just a part of the independence movement and is far from active enough for most people supporting independence.

    The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    ransos
    The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.

    Aye, right….

    Oooh,whataboutery

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Aye, right….

    “If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.”

    gordimhor
    Member

    The polls do still show a majority against independence. However it is a better starting position than when the last referendum was called.

    It’s also worth bearing in mind that some 74% of Scots voted for devolution. The very thing which is undermined by the EU withdrawal bill.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    Just an update:

    The number of new members for the SNP since this afternoon’s walk out is 3,000.

    There’s a lot of pissed off people out there.

    If you want to hear why people are pissed off laid out step by step, this lady does it pretty well https://www.facebook.com/ScottishIndependenceLiveEvents/videos/2137728466464818/UzpfSTE0MDI2Mzk5Nzk5NzM2NzQ6Vks6MjEzNzcyODQ2NjQ2NDgxOA/

    oldnpastit
    Member

    Scottish independence might suit the Conservatives quite nicely – a guaranteed majority in the rUK.

    And right now, they’re very determinedly putting the party before the nation.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    athgray

    The union of Scotland occured through the middle ages. At the time Gaels and Scots were prevalent in the West. Norse controlling the North, Picts holding sway in the NE, with Britons and Angles through what are today’s central belt and Southern uplands. Treaties, unions and feud would eventually lead to Robert the Bruce leading forces to victory in 1314. The Declaration of Arbroath less than 400 years before the Treaty of Union in 1320 effectively cemented the independence of the Scottish nation. The Scotland we know today came into being in the second half of the 15th century just over 200 years before the the Treaty of Union, during a period when Norway pawned away control of oil rich Orkney and Shetland to Scotland to raise funds for a marriage dowry.

    So nation states are transitory in nature is the point there?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    The number of new members for the SNP since this afternoon’s walk out is 3,000.

    Labour is the largest party in western Europe.

    airtragic
    Member

    I wouldn’t ridicule the idea of independence however I do believe (like Brexit) that it will be bad for both parties and (also like Brexit) worse for the smaller party.

    Thanks for articulating my thoughts!

    poly
    Member

    The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.

    Thats what people were telling farage…

    sbob
    Member

    Thanks for articulating my thoughts!

    My pleasure sir!

    Premier Icon imnotverygood
    Subscriber

    The movement in total would lose a referendum, and you know it.

    Thats what people were telling farage…

    Indeed. This is why Nicola has already called a second referendum seeing as she is so confident of winning it

    piemonster
    Member

    “The polls do still show a majority against independence. However it is a better starting position than when the last referendum was called.”

    This is true. But the campaign has never really stopped. If we’ve not achieved a majority by now is it really likely in the near future? There needs to be something far more persuasive than anything I’ve seen recently. Politicians scoring political points isn’t enough IMO with many so heavily entrenched. I think we’re more likely to see a decisive shift once people start finding there wallets empty. Not the most ideal of motivations.

    I don’t take Epics comments about new members as evidence of a shift in the proportions support. Overall it’s a tiny portion of the electorate that may well (likely?) already have voted yes.

    We went through similar in the run up to 2014 as well with often repeated claims of hordes of converts winning the vote.

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Subscriber

    piemonster

    …We went through similar in the run up to 2014 as well with often repeated claims of hordes of converts winning the vote.

    Westminster certainly thought it was going to go across the line based on their polling, and that’s why we had all those amazing promises in the last few weeks. If they had kept them we wouldn’t be in this position right now.

    Also last time most of the EU citizens resident in Scotland believed the Unionist lie that we wouldn’t be in the EU. Their vote was sufficient to swing it against us. Can’t see that happening again.

    The old folk were terrified by the Unionist lie that they would lose their pensions, and a high % of them voted to stay. Death has culled quite a few of them and will take even more before another referendum/election, and I doubt that many would believe that lie now.

    Then there is the considerable English population in Scotland. Naturally many of them voted to stay in the UK, however it looks like that is changing.

    Perhaps we should be the type of nationalists that the media like to portray us as, and only allow native born Scots to vote….

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Ah. So you lost because people were too old and insufficiently Scottish.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 292 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.