The economic damage from Covid19 is looking dire and clusters and second ‘waves’ are already appearing. The worst case scenario for winter 2020 needs attention (unless you’re actually running the country it seems).

We know all this, yet I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.

Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane? What’s up with people? Is it just ignorance?

We know all this, yet I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.

non of those things caused the virus

Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane? What’s up with people? Is it just ignorance?

Please, O wise one, give us the solution.

There has been widespread coverage of wet markets and continued encroachment into previously uninhabited areas – both of which narrow the divide between humans and wild animals.

The divide between humans and wild animals seemed pretty thin anyway judging peoples behaviour post lockdown!

both of which narrow the divide between humans and wild animals.

Tried bivvying?

I’ll assume that was an attempt at humour; you’re the bivvying expert, not me.
If it wasn’t, here’s some reading for you https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/destroyed-habitat-creates-the-perfect-conditions-for-coronavirus-to-emerge/

I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture

Oddly enough there’s a funny reason for that, and it’s because you just made it up and it doesn’t exist outside of your head. L’Oreal has more robust science.

Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane?

Probably not, but you’re in the minority because most people hopefully understand that viruses aren’t “caused” any more than sparrows are.

Is it just ignorance?

… Well.

fatmountain – you do realise that even if we immediately stop intensive farming anywhere in the world, insist on people living only in existing cities, have some sort of global embargo on natural habitat loss, and close all the wet markets – this would have zero impact on the risk of Covid-19 to the UK from a second wave in Winter 2020…

Please, O wise one, give us the solution.

The meat eaters are still in denial.
https://www.surgeactivism.org/covid19

fatmountain
Member

We know all this, yet I hear virtually no mainstream or political discussion of the causes of the virus, i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.

you just made that up.

Sorry, were you calling your own opening post the definition of stupidity as I would agree with that if you were.

The fact a virus moved from animal to human can happen in many scenarios. Wet markets with ‘stranger’ species are not helpful as they may have a higher chance of coming into viruses that humans haven’t had as much close exposure to but it could in theory happen from someone in UK catching something from their chicken, from their cat, from any other animal they own that has a virus that has never spread across to humans before.

Am I the only one who just thinks this is all utterly insane?

Yes.

4/10

Someone’s day isn’t going to plan!

All the issues in the OP’s post are things that need addressing, but nothing to do with Covid from what I’ve read.

widespread coverage of wet markets

You are aware that Borough Market is also a wet market?

You are aware that Borough Market is also a wet market?

Technically, yes…. in that it sells “perishable goods”, but it’s really the live-animal and slaughtering aspect that’s problematic. Haven’t been to Borough market for a while…. but hopefully it hasn’t changed THAT much.

The next virus from China will probably arrive via Huawei…

For me the original post does raise an issue for me.

That of our Westminster politicians not articulating thier vision of the world they would like to see. I don’t hear enough ‘big picture’ of the society and environment we live in.

I do hear other leaders and politicians in the UK, particularly Wales and Scotland, and leaders around the world, particularly some in Europe, manage to have a personal and party view on these big issues. This then informs thier actions some more.

In Westminster at the moment we seen to play reactionary politics,shy away from treating the population like adults and avoid the difficult long term decisions, favouring smoke, mirrors and personal gain.

I do think at a global environmental issues level, the connection of the OP tried to make is reflected in a personal, values-led attitude of our politicians.

But like Brexshit, or politicians are happy to ignore reality and make hay for themselves before the sun sets.

Please, O wise one, give us the solution

The virus IS the solution

OP is being unfairly criticised. There is considerable concern in scientific journals that as habitats are lost and the climate changes, humans and animals will be interacting in greater numbers and locations/species. This will increase the Opportunity for virus transmission between species.

I don’t think it’s a controversial opinion. I’ve read it in a few journals lately.

I reckon the definition of stupidity is a govt that allows transport from infected countries to come in without checks, and allowing mass events like Cheltenham to occur.

This will increase the Opportunity for virus transmission between species.

Contribute yes, cause no.

If you look at any animal population on this planet, rabbits, mice etc once they become too populous / overcrowded diseases come along to put them back in check.

We are no different. As I said above the virus is the solution.

Might be just a bit simplistic to compare say myxomatosis with Covid

Might be just a bit simplistic to compare say myxomatosis with Covid

Not really, high rabbit population pushes R above 1. High human population pushes R above 1. Same thing. Novel viruses/diseases pop up all the time. If Covid had come along in Stone Age times it would have likely fizzled out in wuhan after infecting a few dozen people in an isolated settlement. Same virus in the 21st century travels around the world like wild fire infecting millions.

The natural world is full of feedback mechanisms. This is one of them.

No it isn’t.

It’s a virus. Doing what they do. It’s not tactical; it’s just living it’s best life and getting on in the world.

Anyway, isn’t Scientific American an oxymoron?

If Covid had come along in Stone Age times it would have likely fizzled out in wuhan after infecting a few dozen people in an isolated settlement.

Not sure that would be right. I believe measles, tuberculosis, smallpox and all sorts of other nasties are thought to have crossed from animals to humans in pre-history and didn’t fizzle out.

intensive farming and agriculture

Now I dislike (and don’t support) intensive animal-farming for a number of reasons. But it didn’t ‘cause’ CV19

SARS-CoV-2 appears to have originated in bats, and possibly moved to humans via an intermediate host animal. Bats may also have been the original hosts for outbreaks that infected humans via civets in 2003 and camels in 2012.

While these coronaviruses originated in animals, not one of these species is associated with “factory farming.” That makes it hard to follow the logic that farmed animals, rather than wildlife, resulted in the current pandemic. Animals, including pets, sometimes carry harmful germs that can spread to people. But studies show that the majority of emerging zoonotic diseases originate in wildlife.

And as an animal scientist, I have seen solid evidence that biosecurity practices associated with commercial animal agriculture decrease the risk of disease. While these practices – vaccination, physical distancing and preventing contact with wildlife – may not align with popular ideas of “naturalness,” they make livestock operations safer for both animals and humans

https://theconversation.com/why-its-wrong-to-blame-livestock-farms-for-coronavirus-137055

But is it that simple?

A 2004 joint consultation of the World Health Organisation (WHO), Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations (FAO) and World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE, the world’s leading veterinary authority), concluded that “anthropogenic factors such as agricultural expansion and intensification to meet the increasing demand for animal protein” are one of the major drivers of zoonotic disease emergence.

According to the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), an estimated 80 per cent of all antibiotics produced is sold to livestock farms, and a 2019 study documents how the growing demand for animal protein resulted in a tripling of the occurrence of antibiotic resistance in disease-causing bacteria in livestock between 2000 and 2018.

In the US, a person dies every 15 minutes because of an infection that antibiotics can no longer treat effectively, a total of 35,000 deaths per year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), antibiotic resistance is “one of the world’s most pressing public health problems,” and other experts predict that at the current rate, more people will die of diseases caused by antibiotic-resistant bacteria than of cancer by 2050.

https://www.lifegate.com/factory-farming-epidemics-coronavirus

Your other claim:

reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.

I read

Experts have raised concerns about wildlife markets in China and other countries where many different kinds of live animals are kept in cramped cages for purchase and slaughter.

This kind of proximity between people and wildlife (and sometimes captive-bred animals) carries huge disease risks. Infectious diseases cause about a quarter of human deaths. Of these deaths, almost 60% are zoonotic in origin. Of the zoonoses, more than 70% are from wildlife.

Destroying Habitats Increases Disease Risk
The wildlife trade isn’t the only problem. As humans increasingly enter and destroy pristine places where animals live, we increase disease risk.

As our climate changes, wildlife moving to new habitat will occur in unique combinations, risking further spillover events. And as the human population grows, increasing encounters between people and wildlife will escalate the danger. In the last 40 years, the worst human pandemics and epidemics — HIV, SARS, avian flu, swine flu, Ebola virus and Zika virus — all stemmed from trading in and consuming animals and destroying their habitat.

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/wildlife-exploitation-and-pandemic-risk/index.html

Lots to discuss but, you know…humans generally aren’t forward-planners and we distrust just about everything except gut-instinct and ‘sale’ signs. We reap what we sow but it’s usually too late by the time we learn that even hindsight is only 20/20 for those without myopia.

I thought this was going to be a thread about Chris Grayling

The natural world is full of feedback mechanisms. This is one of them.

Not really.

lots of emerging infectious diseases come from when humans, livestock and wildlife get squeezed in together and they can jump. Like on pacific islands after a storm when everyone is stood on the dry bit.

Anyway, isn’t Scientific American an oxymoron?

It might seem that way in the Trump era but a quick look at the amount of scientific research done in the US should give a better picture.

i.e. intensive farming and agriculture, reckless impingement and destruction of the natural world and the keeping of animals in appalling conditions.

oh dear – that is not how viruses “jump species”

So this virus began with bats or perhaps pangolins. Neither of which us Brits are that bothered with. But what if a new disease used a cat / dog / rabbit <insert favourite pet here> vector? Would we all be calling for the abolition of pet ownership?

Not really.

The world as we know it only exists because of feedback loops, carefully keeping everything in equilibrium without it there would not be the diversity we have today.

You’d also be dead without it. Your heart rate, blood sugar, temperature, blood pressure, salt levels etc are all regulated by feedback loops.

Would we all be calling for the abolition of pet ownership?

Can we do it pre-emptively?

Can we do it pre-emptively?

Only if I’m allowed to cull feral children.

Its ingrained in our culture that disease is a just moral punishment. And when new disease occurs we question the moral fibre of the first victims and their culture – what have they done to deserve this?

A virus absolutely doesn’t care – viruses and bacteria aren’t reprimanding us for the practices of food markets in china, French people in Italy, Homosexuals in New York