The creation museum

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  • The creation museum
  • slowoldgit
    Member

    And as for Geology, well when God created the earth he had shells and driftwood on the beaches, living and dead trees, with rings, in the forests, and sphagnum moss alive and dead in the peat bogs. Naturally he included fossils in the rocks and the layering in the sediments.

    All that crafty stuff with the isotopes and magnetism was a nasty wind-up though.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    The Bible is basically a more pedestrian version of the Greek and Roman myths and legends, or any other collection of pseudo religious stories for that matter. If you claimed to believe in the former you would be laughed at. Somehow the latter, along with a select few others, is fine though. Just strikes me as all a bit daft really. Each to their own, but opening a museum of bullshit is a step too far.

    jimjam
    Member

    tjagain

    IME there are two ways “christians” look at the bible – one as a series of allegories / parables / stories and the other for the evangelicals of 100% absolutly ture.

    the former I have no issue with, the latter leads you into all sorts of nasty places

    There’s infinitely more than two ways. People are individuals. As you say, some view the bible as parables, some take it literally. Some view some of it as parable, some literal. A biblical pick and mix. Some have never thought about it any level. Some flip their interpretations to suite their needs at a given time.

    There’s a weird cult of perceived piety which seems very popular here in Ireland among otherwise intelligent well educated people and they seem to prefer a pick and mix approach dismissing most of old testament as ancient nonsense but treating the new testament as both religious and historic truth.

    gears_suck
    Member

    so the point of the story is not whether it is true then? I also think your account is false. if i declared a miracle folk would ask for proof. this is not unreasonable.

    Put simply.
    “Faith.”
    It requires no proof. You claiming to have jumped over a bus (or three) That would also require faith on our part should we have miss the event.
    The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.
    If you don’t want to see it or hear it, step away. If you don’t want to visit, go somewhere else.
    If you see the title of a thread and think. Ooo, just what I’ve been waiting for. A chance to put down someone. You need help.
    The demeaning bravado is childish and pointless. You won’t change someones mind by belittling them or their faith and I really don’t get the impression the ranting here is trying to do that anyway.
    As soon as the subject of religion is broacher here, along come the same old faces, droning on with the same old put downs. This post wasn’t put up to encourage a debate, It was put up in order to laugh at someone. To put them down and to ridicule them.
    Sad.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    jimjam – Member

    There’s infinitely more than two ways. People are individuals. As you say, some view the bible as parables, some take it literally. Some view some of it as parable, some literal.

    That’s really only 2 positions, literal and not- as soon as you start picking and choosing, and taking some as metaphor, you can no longer claim is as the literal and unquestionable word of god- that’s an all-or-nothing position.

    (put it another way- it’s not “all cars are red” or “all cars are not red”- it’s “all cars are red” or “not all cars are red”. You can’t say “all cars are red. That car and that car are blue”

    You could have a 3rd position, that absolutely none of it is literally true but that’d be pretty hard to distinguish from not being Christian.

    Junkyard
    Member

    The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.

    you sure its not when someone says something like that ?

    as for faith that is fine what parts of the book do they have faith in and what parts do they not have faith in
    How do i know what parts to have faith in and what parts to ignore ? is their a manual do i need faith in that or is it just accurate?

    Faith does not why someone chooses to follow a book they know that parts of it are wrong

    The reason I am so incredulous it is is literally irrational and when you choose this option you open yourself up to ridicule whether it is insisting in creation or the world being flat or any other number of factually incorrect accounts of reality.
    In fact it is so irrational that the DSMV needs to put in a clause to exclude the religious from classification
    as for ridicule i believe the book offers some advice on how to deal with that but i am not sure if that is one of the true bits or not 😉

    Anyone is allowed to believe anything but that does not give them a special pass to avoid ridicule

    jimjam
    Member

    Northwind

    That’s really only 2 positions, literal and not-

    Technically, I suppose you are right. But in matters as complex as faith, it goes beyond A or B, black or white. I can believe a part of something, and disbelieve the other part of it. Perhaps I’m not explaining myself well but I think it’s potentially very fluid for some people.

    jimjam
    Member

    gears_suck –

    The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.
    If you don’t want to see it or hear it, step away. If you don’t want to visit, go somewhere else.
    If you see the title of a thread and think. Ooo, just what I’ve been waiting for. A chance to put down someone. You need help.

    What you see online vocalised by atheists is a reaction to all the times they were accosted in the street and told they were going to hell, or the years or decades of bullshit religious upbringing. Online, it’s an even playing field where each side of a debate can (in theory) be presented and debated without group pressure, peer pressure, intimidation, shouting and where the cult of personality holds no sway.

    I’ve never been stopped in the street by militant atheists telling me I would suffer eternal misery for not being an atheist, I’ve never been insulted or harassed by atheists. Atheist politicians don’t discriminate against gays or lesbians because of imaginary voices in ancient texts.

    Putting people down, in real life in public is the preserve of the religious. It’s there that atheists politely walk on or step away.

    gears_suck
    Member

    The reason I am so incredulous it is is literally irrational and when you choose this option you open yourself up to ridicule whether it is insisting in creation or the world being flat or any other number of factually incorrect accounts of reality.

    What is actually incredulous is your inability to grasp concept of faith and your hangup with someone else choices. Regardless of vulnerability, to ridicule is a choice. Does the opportunity presented demand the act?
    No.
    I would stop concerning yourself with others well being, you’re not very good at it.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Can anybody who’s actually read the Bible tell me how many people God killed? And how many people the devil killed?

    Should make for an interesting if very simplistic bar graph.

    Just to add, my personal beliefs are very simple, do what ever you want unless it will cause harm to others.

    Religion doesn’t generally fit into my belief.

    Junkyard
    Member

    I can grasp faith* you believe something incredulous that has no proof to back it up

    to ridicule is a choice. Does the opportunity presented demand the act?

    do you not think this would have sounded better [ there does seem to be something about consistency with the faithful and their defenders]if you had not followed it up by ridiculing me?

    * Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
    I can also discuss Corinthians and through a glass darkly if you really want to . you seem like the scholarly type 😉

    tjagain
    Member

    Farron as an evangelical christian “Christianity is not a bit true. It’s either wrong or utterly compellingly true”

    for me its all about consenting adults in private. Bring your faith into the public realm and you reap what you sew

    Religion is like a penis. Its Ok to have one, its fine to be proud of it and to enjoy it but please don’t wave it around in public and try to stuff it down my throat

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Belief that the Old Testament is allegory and the New Testament factual seems to be fairly common amongst Christians I know (and I guess makes some logical sense on account of them being followers of Christ, not Moses etc)

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
    Subscriber

    I knew opening this thread was going to be a mistake.

    mattyfez
    Member

    May is a ‘Christian’ too, what’s your point?

    You can check out just what they really belive in by checking out thier voting history.

    On a thing called the internet.

    May is basically homophobic, and Tim has consistently voted in favour of Gay /trans whatever rights.

    Look it up, it’s not a secret.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.

    That’s all well and good when it’s a choice taken by an adult. What about children who are indoctrinated in to faiths from a young age and not given a choice? I have no issues with anybody’s beliefs I have issues with opening museums teaching those beliefs as fact, with no evidence to back them up.

    It would also be nice for young women who choose to have abortions not to be harassed. Say what you will but people who need to push their beliefs on to others and spread lies regarding the age of the planet now they are the ones with some serious underlying issues.

    tjagain
    Member

    Mattyfez – May is not an evangelical

    the point I was making is to evangelical Christians every word of the bible is 100% true.

    Farrons voting record is actually much worse than you think and so are his public utterances – however that debate has been had before on here.

    Junkyard
    Member

    ScotRoutes wrote:

    Belief that the Old Testament is allegory and the New Testament factual seems to be fairly common amongst Christians I know (and I guess makes some logical sense on account of them being followers of Christ, not Moses etc)

    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

    JESUS
    Moses was /is a prophet.

    I do not disagree that they do all sorts of things unfortunately none of them make sense and often they are based on just ignoring what is in the book they follow/believe/have faith in.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Mattyfez – May is not an evangelical

    the point I was making is to evangelical Christians every word of the bible is 100% true.

    Farrons voting record is actually much worse than you think and so are his public utterances – however that debate has been had before on here.

    I’ve read his and May’s voting records.

    The difference between Farron and may is he puts his personal belief behind, where as may is playing on whatever she thinks she can cash in on.

    and i doubt she’s even religious, she’s just playing to a crowd.

    All the info on what they’ve voted for is online, i suggest you do a comparison, and you perhaps can engage your brain.

    dirtydog
    Member

    The quicker religious indoctrination of children is be made illegal, the better, it’s child abuse, deluded the lot of them.

    tjagain
    Member

    Mattyfez sorry you are simply wrong on Farron. Voted to restrict abortion multiple times. Voted against equal rights for homosexuals multiple times, Abstained when it was party policy to support proposals for equal rights, signed a letter demanding the ASA allows adverts that state prayer can heal. Plenty of other examples but as I say we have done this to death on here

    He can do no other as he believes every word of the bible to be true and he must adhere to its teachings.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    jimjam – Member

    Technically, I suppose you are right. But in matters as complex as faith, it goes beyond A or B, black or white. I can believe a part of something, and disbelieve the other part of it. Perhaps I’m not explaining myself well but I think it’s potentially very fluid for some people.

    I think I understand your point but it’s 2 slightly different matters. Yes, most people of faith pick and choose the parts of their religion that they want to follow, and that’s a personal choice (and to some extent a question of your sect, as well). So that’s fluid. But believing it to be literally true is all or nothing.

    I don’t personally understand how people reconcile that; not so much the pick-and-choose thing (to me it’s hypocrisy; but that’s OK, most people are hypocrites about at least some things). But the fact that people expect other people to take their picking and choosing seriously. Like, I’m supposed to respect your religious stance on the sanctity of unborn life or the sin of homosexuality, and give it special consideration because it’s a matter of faith, but not notice when you commit adultery, or stand in judgement over others, or store up for yourself the treasures of the earth

    tjagain
    Member

    Mattyfez at the great risk of both raking up old ground, diverting this thread and pissing off folk who have heard this argument before

    Even your link shows him voting agaisnt party policy and against equality but his common tactic is to abstain even when its party policy to vote for

    direct quote from the man

    “Take the issue of abortion. Personally I wish I could argue it away. Abortion is wrong,”
    “wrong at any time” and that it was “too widely available” and needed “tighter restrictions”.

    and he voted for those tighter restrictions including voting for a common tactic of anti abortion groups – insisting on a compulsory cooling off period and compulsory pre abortion counselling

    He voted for allowing public servants to discriminate against gay people wanting to get married but abstained on the final vote

    In 2007 Mr Farron voted against the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations, legislation which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation in the provision of goods and services.

    Plenty more examples of this. Yes since becoming leader he has attempted to wriggle out of this with weasel words but his actions speak louder

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    How can anybody believe that the whole of the earth flooded? I mean surely all the water would just pour off the edges.

    Junkyard
    Member

    faith easily vanquishes your scientific concerns

    jimjam
    Member

    aracer – Member

    How can anybody believe that the whole of the earth flooded? I mean surely all the water would just pour off the edges.

    The arctic ice walls.

    mattyfez
    Member

    Tj its frikin semantics, abortion is generally wrong, but you’ve provided no context.

    I’ll start you off..

    Abort from a rape pregnancy? Is that OK?

    tjagain
    Member

    I am not going to argue the point any more. Its clear from his public pronouncements and his voting record that his personal beliefs are worth more to him that party policy or equality

    tjagain
    Member

    I do love that pic of two male lions going onto the ark. Thats a particularly good one. That and the pictures of Jesus riding dinosaurs.

    Jesus as a blond northern european type is funny as well.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    gears_suck –
    The frustration and anger that someone elses choice of belief causes some of you reveals underlying issues.
    If you don’t want to see it or hear it, step away. If you don’t want to visit, go somewhere else.
    If you see the title of a thread and think. Ooo, just what I’ve been waiting for. A chance to put down someone. You need help.

    Problem is we can’t walk away when people get creationism taught as a science. We can’t walk away when people choose to push religious beliefs onto other people through law.
    We still have a system where children are indoctrinated into religion which in many ways is presented as facts in a place of learning.
    If you want to have your religion, remove it from schools, remove it from science, by all means let us study it and discuss it but let us also be objective.

    mattyfez
    Member

    I am not going to argue the point any more.

    I’m not arguing, I’m asking you personally if you think someone who is raped, whether they should have that choice to abortion.

    I would say yes, what do you say?

    tjagain
    Member

    Of course I would say yes. I believe in a womans right to control her own body without any reservations or caveats. Same as I believe in equality of all without reservation and I believe public servants should not be allowed to discriminate because of their religious beliefs

    tjagain
    Member

    Another aspect of the debate mikesmith / gears suck is having

    i believe very strongly in that people should be allowed to die in a time and place of their own choosing. the religious are stopping this from happening.

    If the religious don’t want this for themselves fine. their choice. Why do they feel it needed to thrust their views on me and deny me and mine that choice.

    this is where religion is simply wrong when religious folks try to use their beliefs to control others who do not share their beliefs

    dirtydog
    Member

    +1 Mikewsmith

    The world will be a much better when we stop brainwashing our kids.

    There really should be a law against teaching shit like that to kids like it’s fact, it’s disgraceful, it’s child abuse.

    If that’s not a good enough reason for speaking out against religion I don’t know what is.

    mattyfez
    Member

    I do love that pic of two male lions going onto the ark

    Kinda blows the ‘God hates fags’ argument out of the water. Hahaha!

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    Is it me or does the lamb look worried? How did Adam get such a neat cheek and neckline for his beard? These are the questions I need answering.

    jimjam
    Member

    funkmasterp

    How did Adam get such a neat cheek and neckline for his beard? These are the questions I need answering.

    He probably kept his beard so neat and tidy using an obsidian razor.

    Or he may just have used magic. TBH Adam’s grooming is probably the least troubling aspect of the museum to me.

    poah
    Member

    got to admire the ignorance of religious nuts.

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