The CPS actually manage to convict someone of Death by Dangerous Driving

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  • The CPS actually manage to convict someone of Death by Dangerous Driving
  • Premier Icon ononeorange
    Subscriber

    I doubt it Graham. No doubt there will be a big fuss about what a lovely person the driver is, he/she had every right to drive like an utter idiot and how their life will be affected with such a conviction blah blah.

    samuri
    Member

    It’s the war on motorists gone mad!

    Meanwhile a succession of dead people who up until recently rode about on a bike, lie dead on the street.

    I sincerely believe that some rigid diligence needs to be applied to pursuing appropriate levels of sentencing for dangerous driving. Some things that happen on the 5roads are after all, actually real accidents. In this case though, 18 SECONDS with your eyes off the road while piloting a ton and a half of metal is an appalling lack of concern and care from the driver and in this case, I wholeheartedly agree with the charge. 18 seconds isn’t careless, it’s downright negligence.

    Samuri – can you give me an example of what you would consider to be an accident?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    To be honest I don’t think a jail term is all that useful.

    Clearly she didn’t plan to kill anyone and I strongly doubt that “I better not fiddle with my satnav because I might kill someone and get sent to jail” is a more effective deterrent (for a normal functioning person) than just “I better not fiddle with my satnav because I might kill someone”

    But, why oh why is the maximum driving ban only 2 years even for dangerous driving??

    She has demonstrated she can’t be trusted behind the wheel – so why give her another chance?

    Typical “driving is a basic human right” attitude of our car-obsessed society.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Samuri – can you give me an example of what you would consider to be an accident?

    Please don’t. It would be a shame for this to turn into a STW Driving Gods bun fight.

    soobalias
    Member

    lets wait and see what the sentence is.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    GrahamS – “minimum”

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    ****aduck. Finally.

    But, why oh why is the maximum driving ban only 2 years even for dangerous driving??

    says minimum on the link at the moment.

    ormondroyd
    Member

    In this case though, 18 SECONDS with your eyes off the road while piloting a ton and a half of metal is an appalling lack of concern and care from the driver and in this case, I wholeheartedly agree with the charge. 18 seconds isn’t careless, it’s downright negligence.

    18 seconds was a balls up by the forensic analyst. It assumed the cyclist wasn’t travelling at any speed at all. If he’d been doing 20mph, he might have been in sight for over 50 seconds.

    poly
    Member

    But, why oh why is the maximum driving ban only 2 years even for dangerous driving??

    Its not the maximum. It is the minimum. There is actually no maximum period for a ban for any driving offence where disqualification can apply.

    Premier Icon euain
    Subscriber

    But, why oh why is the maximum driving ban only 2 years even for dangerous driving??

    On the bikeradar article it says minimum ban 2 years.. which sounds more like it

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I stand corrected 😳 – minimum 2 years makes more sense, though I can’t see why she should be allowed to drive again ever.

    samuri
    Member

    Samuri – can you give me an example of what you would consider to be an accident?

    Brakes failing, tyre puncturing, having a heart attack. Things that cannot readily be attributed to human error.

    So mechanical failure and ill health. Not really accidents are they. 😉

    Premier Icon dave360
    Subscriber

    Gluption – putting the murdering bint away for a decent stretch just might make others think harder before monkeying with a mobile or satnav while careering along in a one ton metal box.

    dave360 – with any luck yes.

    TuckerUK
    Member

    So mechanical failure and ill health. Not really accidents are they.

    My definition of an ‘accident’ is something that happens out of the blue, couldn’t have reasonably been predicted, and therefore couldn’t have reasonably been prevented.

    Anything else is negligence/human error.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Blimey the CPS have actually charged and convicted someone for Death by Dangerous Driving after they killed a cyclist.

    According to the BikeRadar article the CPS actively pushed for the dangerous driving charge, rather than their usual approach of accepting the lesser Careless Driving charge.

    One off or are they finally getting the message that killing people with cars is bad, even if they are just cyclists?

    http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/distracted-driver-who-killed-cyclist-convicted–37981/

    samuri
    Member

    If you have a puncture, lose control and then drive over someone, that’s an accident isn’t it? Likewise your brakes fail or you lose control through health reasons. You must accept that real accidents do happen.

    These are just quick examples but there are lots of issues, whether single of a series of unfortunate events that lead up to real accidents.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    18 seconds was a balls up by the forensic analyst. It assumed the cyclist wasn’t travelling at any speed at all. If he’d been doing 20mph, he might have been in sight for over 50 seconds.

    Yeah from the coverage in The Metro it seems to be based on 500 metres at 60mph = 18.64secs

    But in the Get Reading article it says she was doing “40 to 50mph”.

    I would imagine that Mr Hilson, an experienced cyclist, was probably doing at least ~20mph.

    So really it is 500 metres at (50mph – 20mph), which is 37 seconds.

    That is a ridiculous length of time to not be watching the road ahead!

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    More from the CTC on this case:
    http://www.ctc.org.uk/news/driver-who-killed-anthony-hilson-convicted-of-causing-his-death-dangerous-driving

    They seem to agree with me that jail terms aren’t really much use as a deterrent.

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    CTC say that

    CTC does not think that imposing custodial sentences on drivers who cause death is the ideal solution, as in most cases they only present a danger to the public when behind the wheel of a car

    True, but a jail sentence has a deterrent effect on the bad drivers who have haven’t killed anyone yet. If jailing dangerous drivers who kill cyclists saves a handful of other lives it is well worth it.

    Taking the logic of the CTC that a long ban is better than jail we wouldn’t jail anyone. It also assumes that banned drivers don’t drive.

    A short jail sentence followed by a very long ban is the way to go.

    IanW
    Member

    Not sure if it was on here or road.c.c but someone said the cps have been given new guidelines increasing the likely hood they press for dangerous rather than careless driving.

    konabunny
    Member

    18 seconds isn’t careless, it’s downright negligence.

    It’s the other way around in law – careless driving is worse than negligent driving, which is why it has a criminal penalty.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    True, but a jail sentence has a deterrent effect on the bad drivers who have haven’t killed anyone yet.

    I don’t agree. I’m not convinced threat of jail is an effective deterrent.

    No one thinks “Well I would go out, drive dangerously and kill someone, but I’ve heard they are jailing people now so I won’t”

    Junkyard
    Member

    Short jail and permanent ban given how serious it was – they must have not looked at the road for ages
    In general jail and a very very long ban

    wheeliejim
    Member

    This happened just round the corner from me. At the time, I could not understand how the hell it happened. It was an open stretch on the A4 with a slight left hand bend and a slight downhill. It’s fast on a bike say 20 mph, top 20’s pushing it on a road bike. Cyclists go up and down there *all* the time – she would have known this as she also lives round the corner, and must have driven that route many times? Driving between Maidenhead and Twyford on the A4 (~5 miles), as I do every day, I would normally expect to overtake 5 bikes.

    It’s so scary to think there’s people out there as stupid as this.

    Condolences to his family, I understand he leaves two children behind.

    wheeliejim
    Member

    it was here, direction towards the road sign

    Note the slight left hand bend – I don’t like those on a bike….

    quote – No one thinks “Well I would go out, drive dangerously and kill someone, but I’ve heard they are jailing people now so I won’t” – end quote

    what the hell kind of statement is that?

    No one thinks “Well I would go out, rob / rape/ mug and kill someone, but I’ve heard they are jailing people now so I won’t”

    ?

    isn’t that the whole idea? much more than a punishment, the potential loss of liberty surely acts as a deterrent …no?

    am i being naive?

    Premier Icon tomd
    Subscriber

    Article from Independent

    This is worth a read. Simon Usborne is a fanny, this much is known. The article is very sympathetic to the driver. The article is quite strangely written, it swivels between sympathising with the driver and pointing out how shocking the driving was. It doesn’t seem to really get it. Driving is a serious business, take it seriously or end up like this woman.

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    I don’t agree. I’m not convinced threat of jail is an effective deterrent.

    It needs to be made clear that bad driving that causes death is an almost certain jail sentence. Along with a publicity campaign. Stiff punishments combined with publicity drastically reduced drink driving.

    I think many people think it isn’t people like them that go to jail. And by and large it isn’t – most of the jail population are repeat offenders. If Mr and Mrs average were shown people like them using their handheld or satnav, killing someone and then sharing a cell with a typical prisoner it might just make a bit of difference.

    antigee
    Member

    probably just an example of how the justice system and the courts treat women who offend more harshly than men?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    what the hell kind of statement is that?
    No one thinks “Well I would go out, rob / rape/ mug and kill someone, but I’ve heard they are jailing people now so I won’t”

    They do, because those are mostly premeditated crimes. The consequences can be considered. The possibility of jail is the main deterrent to those who would otherwise commit them.

    Whereas with Death by Dangerous Driving, it’s not a premeditated thing. This woman didn’t plan to go out and kill someone in her car. She didn’t even plan to drive dangerously. She just planned to drive to her mate’s baby shower. The crime came from poor awareness, poor driving skills and poor appreciation of how quickly it can go wrong and of her responsibilities on the road. It didn’t come from criminal intent.

    When I slow down as I pass a school I do it because I’m worried for the safety of schoolchildren, not because I’m worried about going to jail. Isn’t that true for most folk?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    If Mr and Mrs average were shown people like them using their handheld or satnav, killing someone and then sharing a cell with a typical prisoner it might just make a bit of difference.

    It might. Or you could show them the first bit then the resulting fallout: living with constant guilt, facing the other family, losing their license and quite possibly their job, having to explain it to their kids, being ostracised in their community etc

    Think of the drink-drive advert with the guy doing the voices of the judge, his boss and his wife. Or the one with the dead children haunting the car drivers.

    That’s more effective than the possibility of a jail term.

    konabunny
    Member

    I don’t agree. I’m not convinced threat of jail is an effective deterrent.

    Do you think that about all crimes or just careless driving?

    I’m inclined to agree that it is all a bit unclear whether imprisonment serves as a deterrant generally speaking. But if imprisonment is ever a deterrent, it’s more likely to be effective on crimes like careless driving than it is for drug use or something (I think).

    Edit: you’ve posted again and it answers my question, and fair enough, but you also say:

    It didn’t come from criminal intent.

    I don’t think that’s necessarily relevant. The crime of careless driving is about a lack of (pre)meditation about what the driver is doing, so obviously there’s no criminal intent – it hasn’t even crossed their mind! Victorian mill owners didn’t particularly intend for child weavers’ fingers to be snipped off by dangerous machinery either. But at some point there is a degree of carelessness is that is so awful that it’s appropriate to imprison someone for it, and that imprisonment should be used to send a message to “the community” along the lines of “hey, dickhead! ffs focus for a second and pay attention to what you’re doing or you might end up in prison!”.

    Edit: as an aside, the CPS guidelines on this are worth reading: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_guidance_on_prosecuting_cases_of_bad_driving/

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Do you think that about all crimes or just careless driving?

    I think it is effective for most crime, particularly premeditated crime.

    I don’t think it is effective for what could perhaps be called accidental crime.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Interesting to read the comments from Brian Dorling’s widow on this road.cc story by the way:

    …Brian Dorling’s widow Debbie did not want him jailed.

    “You can see he’s remorseful and see that he’s haunted. He is a broken man, said Debbie Dorling. “Putting him in prison is not going to achieve anything.”

    “I am appalled by the vitriolic tone to many of these comments I cannot believe that so many opinionated people who are not aware of the facts can be quite so nasty. We met Mr Cox yesterday, my 16 year old daughter told him she didn’t hate him because he didn’t mean to kill her dad, my son made his peace and I do not hate. We are human we have the ability to rise above and see the bigger picture, well some of us do. My family and I have been through hell and back; Mr Cox is living a constant hell and I would like to hold out my hand and ask him to help RoadPeace along with me promote the “See me Save Me” campaign..”

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    konabunny – Member

    But if imprisonment is ever a deterrent, it’s more likely to be effective on crimes like careless driving than it is for drug use or something

    Got to agree with GrahamS here, people aren’t going around knocking down cyclists because they think the sentence will be light. Nobody wants to crash into someone, except in crazily irrational situations and the thing about those is, they’re crazily irrational.

    poly
    Member

    STW never ceases to amaze!

    anotherstan I don’t know if you are being niave, intentionally confrontational or just a bit slow. However I’m hoping I am nowhere near you driving if you need a long custodial sentence to deter you from killing me.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Article from Independent

    This is worth a read. Simon Usborne is a fanny, this much is known. The article is very sympathetic to the driver. The article is quite strangely written, it swivels between sympathising with the driver and pointing out how shocking the driving was. It doesn’t seem to really get it.

    Did you also read the linked article about the woman who knocked of Wiggo? Both are basically articles attempting to legitimise the “could have been me” attitude – getting rid of that attitude is exactly why draconian penalties are needed for motoring offences like this. Apparently it’s quite easy to fail to spot a cyclist even if you look properly 🙄 I note that in the Wiggo article he describes himself as “a dedicated road cyclist” – is that the usual anti-cyclist journo shorthand for “I own a bike”, or does he actually ride more than once a year?

    konabunny
    Member

    people aren’t going around knocking down cyclists because they think the sentence will be light

    No – they’re completely oblivious to everything, that’s the whole point. Relying on their good nature and to consider the guilt that might happen doesn’t work. You need a strong penalty to pierce their consciousness.

    FunkyDunc
    Member

    If statistics start to prove that long sentences start to reduce the number of fatalities on the road, then I am all for it, but realistically I doubt it will have any impact at all.

    Better driving training, better cyclist training, and wearing more high viz stuff etc etc.

    Cyclist will always die on the roads, stands to reason when a metal object hits a soft person. If you don’t want that to be a risk, then the only answer is to stay off the roads.

    zokes
    Member

    You need a strong penalty to pierce their consciousness.

    The fact that if you kill someone whilst driving through negligence, that will be the last time you ever drive a car on a public road should be enough. It at least means it can never happen again.

    Locking them up (or threatening them with this) really acts as no deterrent IMO. Not least because for most normal, occasionally careless people who dive cars, the thought of causing a collision, never mind a death, abhors them already. They just assume / hope it won’t be them.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Relying on their good nature and to consider the guilt that might happen doesn’t work. You need a strong penalty to pierce their consciousness.

    And to that end I’d rather the money for keeping them in jail for 14 years was instead spent on road safety campaigns, driver/cyclist training and traffic police.

    RichPenny
    Member

    Also worth noting that being disqualified from driving does not actually prevent you from driving at all. It’s merely a deterrent.

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