Viewing 40 posts - 281 through 320 (of 423 total)
  • The Covid Inquiry.
  • tjagain
    Full Member

    Hancock certainly seems to be coming out of this better than many of the slimebags.  He appeared both humble and truthful

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Who knows, maybe the brush with reality (TV) has actually had some impact. Being yelled at by that interrogator while just stood there in his pants – maybe it could form part of the new MP induction?

    burko73
    Full Member

    All the people behind/ alongside the KC typing etc… what are they all doing? 

    mrchrispy
    Full Member

    they are all dicking about on STW

    burko73
    Full Member

    You’re probably right! Perhaps I’m there in the background myself! 

    nickc
    Full Member

    He appeared both humble and truthful

    I’d agree that he seems more contrite than most who’ve sat in that chair before him. But like everyone else so far, I think he’s telling either a very curated version of “a truth” or more or less a continuous stream of half-truths, and straight outright whoppers. All these men are too invested in protecting their images and legacies – to ever be completely honest – especially in this public forum. Doubtless some have even convinced themselves that what they’re saying is truthful. 

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Doubtless some have even convinced themselves that what they’re saying is truthful.

    Ad far as the public health decisions go at the start, I think they do genuinely believe they made the least worst choices in a difficult situation, balancing the economy, wider public health and Covid, and i have some sympathy for that.

    PPE for mates and repeating the same mistakes, no excuse.

    binners
    Full Member

    I find it terrifying that all these individuals managed to, between themselves, create such an obviously dysfunctional system

    It’s obvious that they were all having their own little personal power-plays, with little or no thought as to the real-world consequences for everyone else.

    The total lack of communication and cooperation is staggering, given the circumstances.

    Hancock looked more contrite and seems to have some realisation of how badly they failed the country, but his ‘evidence’ was pretty dubious

    When Johnson appears on Wednesday, they’ll need someone stood there with one of those big red ‘bullshit’ buttons that they have on The Last Leg

    ransos
    Free Member

    Hancock certainly seems to be coming out of this better than many of the slimebags. He appeared both humble and truthful

    Standard tactic for when you’ve been caught.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Its hardly a high bar for the politicians at this inquiry to appear the least scumbaggish of them

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    conversely, to appear the most scumbaggish takes real scumbaggery. Who’s currently in that position, and who’s next in line to have a tilt at it.

    Oh…..

    revs1972
    Free Member

    Hancock certainly seems to be coming out of this better than many of the slimebags. He appeared both humble and truthful

    Gotcha… hook , line and sinker…😉

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    IMO the scientists who have blatantly misled the inquiry in an attempt to sidestep any blame are scumbags.

    That doesn’t absolve the politicians for their share of the blame of course.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    You said not to comment on your style, but I feel I have to. Your commentary dilutes any objectivity you have and comes across as being more personal than fact based 

    My opinion 

    dissonance
    Full Member

    IMO the scientists who have blatantly misled the inquiry in an attempt to sidestep any blame are scumbags.

    How do you know they have misled the inquiry?
    I accept this may need me to check which local supermarket is 24h so I can pick up some tinfoil.

    mefty
    Free Member

    Because as he has pointed out their evidence is inconsistent with what they were saying at the time – often on TV – or as reported in the minutes of SAGE – and frankly the captain’s tone is pretty much standard for talking about Conservative politicians – the captain has quite clearly illustrated his position with links to evidence etc.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I agree there are questions, as I said the tone dilutes the objectivity. 

    I see what you say that the same tone is used when talking about Tory politicians – but honestly, do you dispute that they are scumbags. 

    mefty
    Free Member

    Yes

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Really?  Jpohnsons behaviour partying in no10 while the rest of us tried to obey the rules?  the actions of a complete scumbag

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    wrong thread, ignore..

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Well it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. You’re wrong though. IMO.

    To compare scientists misremembering key dates, and yes, potentially deliberately to avoid criticism, with those that spent more than 25bn on a failed T&T system and then refused FOI requests on where it went. That partied while the public died. That channelled lord knows how much into non-existent companies owned by their mates and donors for unusable PPE.

    Not even close.

    And for the third time – the discrepancies in the scientists accounts should be explained. I don’t have a problem with calling for that. It’s the tone that draws criticism, and leads to people reaching for the tin foil hats.

    mefty
    Free Member

    How many tests did you use? People on thia site were frankly incontinent with their need to test themselves – what do you think paid for that? Yes the tracing side never really worked but by george we didn’t half test and that is where the money went.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    YOu really believe that?  Not a large % of it siphoned off into Harding and her mates pockets?  People got very rich out of that and the tories sidelined expertise in local authorities leaving experts in this sort of thing sitting on their hands and leaving T&T in the hands of folk without expertise.  Centralising T&T and using folk with no expertise to run it cost lives.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    the discrepancies in the scientists accounts should be explained. I don’t have a problem with calling for that. It’s the tone that draws criticism, and leads to people reaching for the tin foil hats.

    I’m inclined to agree. You’ve raised serious concerns, and more concerning in some ways that their evidence wasn’t challenged when they were giving it, but I can see the deniers jumping on to your comments and using the tone to support their weird conspiracy claims.

    With power and knowledge comes responsibility.

    sc-xc
    Full Member

    I recommend this podcast generally, but the latest episode is an interesting analysis of Hancock’s performance.

    binners
    Full Member

    the tories sidelined expertise in local authorities leaving experts in this sort of thing sitting on their hands and leaving T&T in the hands of folk without expertise

    Andy Burnham said in his evidence last week that everybody was absolutely incredulous that their local T&T teams throughout greater Manchester were stood down. Their extensive knowledge and experience were deemed as no longer required and the task handed over to Didi Harding and other clowns who had about the same experience in this field as Boris Johnson himself

    It was a frankly criminal as well as utterly nonsensical decision, doomed to failure from the off

    But hey… some people made an awful lot of money, so… kerching

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    When Johnson appears on Wednesday, they’ll need someone stood there with one of those big red ‘bullshit’ buttons that they have on The Last Leg

    He will not prepare, because preparation is for ‘little’ people and it’s questioning by ‘grown-ups’ not client journalists who need to maintain contacts and access. The KC’s will press for an answer and the ex-PM will bluster and they will not be deflected. It has the potential to be an horrific car crash for Mr Johnson. (I really hope it is and we can refer to it in future whenever he attempts a comeback).

    binners
    Full Member

    I can see an awful lot of “I can’t really recall….” Going on

    it can’t be anything else but a car crash. He’s never been held properly to account and as you said, those KC’s aren’t going to be fobbed off with his blustering.

    Its not like they’ll be short of ammunition, is it? The dysfunction, disinterest, dishonesty and total incompetence shown by him are now on repeated public records

    i expect he’ll go with playing the victim, as he always does in these situations,  and making it all about ‘poor me’. Then when people don’t buy it and press him further we’ll see the real ‘Boris’ when he gets really entitled and irritable and all ‘how dare you?! Don’t you know who I am?!”. At that point he’ll start trying to blame pretty much everybody except himself

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    It’s Sunak I’m really looking forward to.

    He’s really feeling the pressure of being PM at the moment and seems to just meltdown when anyone questions him.

    He can’t just repeat his mantra when questioned at the inquiry.

    I hope he really shows his true, petulant, teenager colours.

    somafunk
    Full Member

    He’s really feeling the pressure of being PM at the moment and seems to just meltdown when anyone questions him.

    He’s a huffy little shit who takes offence at being questioned so I’m looking forward to his strops being televised

    binners
    Full Member

    Exactly! He’s an entitled little prince who’s never heard the word ‘no’

    You can tell by his manner that he genuinely believes he’s doing us all a favour by lowering himself to govern us and we, the common peasantry, should all be showing him a bit more bloody gratitude

    I can’t wait to see a KC getting underneath his incredibly thin skin

    That smarmy, gameshow-host grin and unbelievably condescending tone won’t last long

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    @theotherjonv, I’m not excusing the mistakes that politicians made, of which there were plenty.

    It is plausible that Vallance doesn’t remember saying either that the doubling time was 5 days live on TV on the 16th March, or that it was written into the PM’s statement on that day (which is also published on-line, it was not a slip of the tongue). But Vallance read the minutes. He quoted directly (albeit selectively) from them in his testimony. It is not remotely plausible that he didn’t see that they flatly contradict his story. They are only 3-4 page pdfs of bullet points – I assume by now you’ve looked at them.

    Not addressing this discrepancy is fundamentally dishonest. That’s true whether or not he has some miraculous explanation as to how this discrepancy can exist without either him telling porkies or the minutes being corrupted in some way. Either of which should most certainly be addressed by an inquiry that seeks to investigate (among other things) the process of scientific advice.

    The scientific peer-review process works pretty well at correcting errors that people make in experimentation, analysis and interpretation. Scientists are human and make mistakes along with their moments of inspiration. What it cannot cope with is people just making up shit that isn’t true, or refusing to report any data that contradicts their theory.

    BTW as for politicians partying and breaking the rules, you may recall Ferguson also seemed to assume the rules didn’t apply to him either. The descriptions I’ve heard of some scientists on the panel, from those acquainted from them, is not particularly flattering in terms of their behaviour. That doesn’t necessarily matter insofar as SAGE performance is concerned, so long as they are honest and competent at addressing evidence, which was patently not the case in mid-March when people like TiReD were showing them solid evidence for a 3 day doubling time and SAGE was basically dismissing it. I once plotted a picture of deaths and cases for Spain, France, Italy up to 14th March (and I think just cases for the UK – there weren’t really sufficient deaths in the UK at that time for that to be very clear). The evidence was completely overwhelming to anyone who looked at it with a half-open mind, which is why there was such widespread incredulity at what we were hearing from SAGE at that time. All the “4 weeks behind Italy” stuff they came out with was the same error expressed in a different way. We were baffled at the time, as we didn’t realise the origin of that error.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    That might all be true but doesn’t address the point I made.

    My advice, fwiw, is you should dial down the rhetoric (you accuse the scientists also of being scumbags, telling porkies, making shit up, etc.) and present the facts as you would in a paper. The rhetoric dilutes the seriousness of the points you make.

    All imho

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    I can see an awful lot of “I can’t really recall….” Going on

    Excess cocaine use is a terrible thing!

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    He will not prepare, because preparation is for ‘little’ people and it’s questioning by ‘grown-ups’ not client journalists who need to maintain contacts and access.

    He was apparently being briefed by some senior KC – according to a newspaper article I read which I can’t find now. Lots of speculation in the press about what he’ll say at the inquiry, he’s expected to apologise.

    How long he can keep up that pretence is another matter…

    kelvin
    Full Member

    You’ll hear the words “sorry”, and “heartfelt apologies” without any real acceptance of his own failings, I suspect.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    He will not prepare, because preparation is for ‘little’ people and it’s questioning by ‘grown-ups’ not client journalists who need to maintain contacts and access

    Various people are reporting he has put a lot of time into preparing including undergoing mock questioning.
    Given how narcissistic he is it does make sense since it will be his chance to try and repair his legacy.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    HIs problem will remain in that he will be facing folk who are far better at this than him and will be able to pin him down to real answers – and they will have done their research as well I hope.  Waffle answers are not going to cut it.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Not addressing this discrepancy is fundamentally dishonest.

    I don’t fundamentally disagree with that, but at the same time, It’s not the central point of the inquiry. At best; you’ve uncovered the fact that there’s a discrepancy between when now he says he started to change his mind about the doubling time, and when the official record says that the committee he was chair of says they did, isn’t as important as the fact that regardless of the advice that Vallance (and others) gave, there was a reluctance to accept it, to deal with it and to plan a response to it by the folks who’s job it was to do that.

    It’s like blaming Prof Linderman for the blitz because he was part of the reason for the delay in developing a response to the Germans use of radio direction guidance in WW2. He was advising Churchill certainly; but it’s Churchill’s job to take the decisions

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    It’s undoubted that scientific advisors made mistakes during that period, and being human, may even be doing a bit of arse-covering for it now. Frequent contact with the reflexive liars of the political world can be ethically corrosive for those attempting to keep a foot in each camp, and politicians will tend to appoint those who they feel may be more pliable.

    The inquiry for me is painting a picture of folk like Vallance trying to find a way to present a palatable version of the message to a resistant audience, the head of which thought that bluster and bullshit was a substitute for listening and learning.

    The culture of no.10 at that point was dismissive of experts and hardwired to ignore the experience of other countries at the very moment when they should have been most receptive. Unfortunately the scientific advisors to some extent played along with that rather than flat-out challenged it.

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