The difficulty for business yet again is the unknown, divergence might be good might be bad but until we actually know what it means it’s a bit tricky to be prepared for it

I keep hearing this, with the implication that if we just “get it done” it’ll all be cake of unicorns. But the uncertainty isn’t around whether it’s going to be great or not, but rather the degree to just how damaging it will be.

Leaver logic be like, if I told you there might be a bomb in a building then you’d be hesitant to go in, but if I just told you there was definitely a bomb in there then everything would be fine.

The councils. i.e. reduce the bureaucrats.

You have seen, right, just how many extra bureaucrats brexit has required so far? It’s thousands. And that’s before we consider how many we’ll need post-brexit just to replace all the ones in the EU that we’ve lost, in order to merely stand still. Compare a company with a centralised finance department against one which has a discrete one in 28 separate offices, which do you think will require the most staff?

Whatever the reasoning for leaving, a reduction of bureaucracy will absolutely not be one of them.

Whatever the reasoning for leaving, a reduction of bureaucracy will absolutely not be one of them.

It is the first step. Yes, it is.
Do you really think large administration is required when technology is in place?
The current Brexit bureaucracy, I hope, is just temporary to deal with the exit and once dust has settled I hope they are not needed.

Sorry, I’m getting drawn in and going off-topic myself now.

So for me which EU standards are we keeping our losing? Are we retaining or not retaining recognition of title? Are we going to create our own version of Eurocodes?
Clearly some intellectual Titan such as Marc Gino Francois will roll up his SAS catering corp sleeves and bring home the bacon for us all.
I’m just surprised how few people have recognised how many of their jobs are actually extremely closely connected to the public sector.

I’m just surprised how few people have recognised how many of their jobs are actually extremely closely connected to the public sector.

That is the problem of public sector becoming too large. i.e. too large to fail and the stake becomes so high due to public sector jobs.

You get what you vote for in brexit.

My advice is to stop voting in the blinking tories.

They get to shape the UK for the next 5 years, but they won’t be in power for ever, what they do now can be reversed.

Brexit is happening, doesn’t really have to be a tory shitfest forever. But it will be if people keep voting them in.

The pendulum can swing.

So, can Starmer forge labour into a viable opposition?

That’s the big question here, cause the next 5 years are happening regardless.

What are British kiddies going to eat for breakfast if there’s no access to sugar?

don’t panic, there will be high fructose corn syrup in everything.

So when a huge amount of sme go bankrupt because no one has anY money to buy what they produce, and their export market is reduced hugely and the pound euro exchange plus new import taxes and levies make the business unviable it does not make a jot of difference what the tax rate is when you lose money every week

Not enough. You don’t need to feed thousands of bureaucrats.

You do know that we have had to hire 20,000 extra civil servants since the vote?

That’s biggest increase since the war.

Meanwhile the whole of Brussels EU has about 35,000 civil servants in total

Raab said we’d need 13000 extra customs staff alone!

Agriculture policy is a great example, it’s run by a handful of bureaucrats in Brussels, which is why it’s such a blunt instrument, and ends up rewarding mega farms & landowners & not necessarily what’s best for agriculture or the environment, but it is incredibly cheap to administer even before you consider the amount of farmland it oversees.
The Tory plans to replace it on the other hand are a recipe for red tape & bureaucracy, they want to measure things like soil fertility, sustainability, flood prevention & biodiversity- that is going to require an army of government scientists & civil servants to decide on who & how these targets are being met.
Don’t get me wrong I think it could be great, but unless the Tories are willing to commit the staff & funds needed to do it properly & admit that it’s going to create more red tape & regs it will end up being a costly disaster.

I’m sure mooman would rather we didn’t bring this up & just pretend it’s all a really great, for no logical reason….

what they do now can be reversed

No. It can’t. We could change perhaps change direction, but we can’t ever reverse the damage about to be inflicted on the UK… we already have large sunk costs that can never be recovered, and sent investment elsewhere never to return. Here’s the thing, people still think voting is magic… Brexit won’t be beneficial just because we voted for it… voting for a Labour government in five years to try and recover what has been lost won’t recover it.

The propaganda war that everything’s booming will be relentless. Already my firm is feeling the effects and have layed off 50 people (medium size construction firm 150 full time with the same again sub contractors) with probably the same again in the coming weeks

Deleted – I’m not being dragged into a debate about council staffing and services.

Ultimately I do wonder how much of this is just bluff & bluster for the farageists .

Johnson used to pretend that there’s be no divorce bill, now all the brexiteers quietly ignore the £40bn he once promised Brussels could ‘go whistle’ for, even as we pay it.

Same with NI, he made a passionate pledge to the dup that no British pm could ever put a customs border between NI & rUK- 90 minutes of talks with vradkaar & Johnson folded like a wet napkin on that one

Similarly throwing up regulatory barriers between 50% of our trade Vs lowering some for 10% of our trade ???

With the sort of spending committments Johnson’s on made during the GE, that level of economic self harm would be insanity!

In a years time he’ll have conceded on fishing, alignment & customs union (or as good as). But will sell it as a victory rather than a climb down

kelvin

Subscriber
what they do now can be reversed

No. It can’t. We could change perhaps change direction, but we can’t ever reverse the damage about to be inflicted on the UK… we already have large sunk costs that can never be recovered, and sent investment elsewhere never to return. Here’s the thing, people still think voting is magic… Brexit won’t be beneficial just because we voted for it… voting for a Labour government in five years to try and recover what has been lost won’t recover it.

All you are doing in lamenting leaving the EU there. It’s happening, shit happens, it’s not the end of the world, the UK isn’t going to fall into a chasm, it will still continue to be a very prosperous country. But the consequences of leaving the EU aren’t aren’t all that we face here. I’m not talking about reversing the EU decision.

I’m talking about reversing the changes the tories are about to make to our society over the next 5 years.

There is a battle there that is far from lost. Mind you it will be if people keep up their mourning over leaving the EU.

How a post brexit UK looks is far from a sure thing and it will be decided on thousands of things over the next 5,10,20,50 years..

Tbh the battle is just beginning.

they aren’t experts and they don’t listen to experts

This is a massive issue. Particularly when javid dismissively says “ some businesses would benefit from Brexit, while others would not“ which could be catastrophic for some businesses. Particularly when we’ve had similar “there’ll be winners and losers” messaging from Ofgem on an unrelated electricity related cost that’s going to effect GB companies from 2021. Flip a coin to determine which businesses will survive.

Call it 10 years, Labour have no chance of rallying behind whoever the new leader is

Large parts of the North of England and other places have not got “through” the Thatcher years.

These are the same beasts its a logical progression of Thatcherism, deregulate and throw money at big projects and services your mates can deliver. Its one hell of a model borrow billions at the taxpayers expense and move 50% of it into private ownership.

I started work in 1979…

In 2019 40 years on we have the reserrection of the anti christ.(anti poor people anyway)

And Blyth voted these ****s in.

I’m talking about reversing the changes the tories are about to make to our society over the next 5 years.

You don’t think they have a golden opportunity to systematically embed change in a way that can not be undone? You clearly are lucky enough not to have been following closely the rantings of Dom Cummings for the past 5 years. You are looking at the next five years as just another parliamentary term… it isn’t… it is the biggest opportunity since WW2 to irreversibly reshape our constitution, and remake both our state and business landscape… all with the ongoing consent of a big enough chunk of the public.

@mehr yes, the construction industry is in recession. The numbers of contractors and specialist subcontractors going under at the moment is worrying. And consultants are finding the current market very tough.

Do you really think large administration is required when technology is in place?

Aaaaah ‘technology’ again eh?

You’re absolutely right. When we were looking at a hard border in Ireland it was all going to be sorted out with ‘technology’ wasn’t it….

Trite nonsense, but par for the course.

kelvin

Subscriber
I’m talking about reversing the changes the tories are about to make to our society over the next 5 years.

You don’t think they have a golden opportunity to systematically embed change in a way that can not be undone? You clearly are lucky enough not to have been following closely the rantings of Dom Cummings for the past 5 years. You are looking at the next five years as just another parliamentary term… it isn’t… it is the biggest opportunity since WW2 to irreversibly reshape our constitution, and remake both our state and business landscape… all with the ongoing consent of a big enough chunk of the public.

They get to shape brexit in their own image , well as much as international relations will allow. impossible to un do? Nah, that entirely depends on the voters going forward over the next 10/20/30 years.

Javid has pointed out that some businesses will benefit from regulatory divergence from the EU, some won’t

To see which is which just take a look at who is presently funding the Tory party.

Lots of hedge fund managers, speculators and associated parasites, no manufacturers, or anyone who actually does anything useful

So basically the B Ark?

Chapeau Cougar 🙂

Every thread needs a Douglas Adams reference.

impossible to un do?

Yes. Many of the “reforms” ahead will be entirely irreversible. You’ll understand when you look back on it.

impossible to un do?

Yes, many will be totally impossible to undo. You could argue that they could be undone if this country comes to its senses and 27 other countries take pity, but in reality, impossible.

I find it astounding that some people still think we can just say ‘stop’ let us go back to where we were before. After 31st Jan irreversible damage will be done to this country because of Brexshit.

The GE in December was the last chance, but yet again ‘we’ failed.

**** Brexit.

That power house of the Pacific crying out for British goods and the masses of coconuts they have ready to ship. They should be here within the next four months, just in time to avert the food riots.

Or provide ammunition.

kelvin

Subscriber
impossible to un do?

Yes. Many of the “reforms” ahead will be entirely irreversible. You’ll understand when you look back on it.

give us some examples?

Call it 10 years, Labour have no chance of rallying behind whoever the new leader is

IMO if Tories are able to create a platform for business to flourish then we are looking at 20 years minimum.

The only way Labour will get into power again is for Tories to massively screw up especially in the area of creating more businesses. Even when Labour gets in in future it will not be the Labour that you see any more but a version very similar to Tories.

p/s: by that time many of you will be much older and as we know the older you get more “Tories” you become.

Member

I find it astounding that some people still think we can just say ‘stop’ let us go back to where we were before.

Yip, it’s on to the politics of it now..

The damage will never be repaired. I fully expect the end of the UK with an independent Scotland and a united Ireland ( that may not count as damage of course depending on viewpoint) but the loss of jobs, loss of growth, loss of investment will never be caught up to say nothing of the change in social attitudes and the rise of racism, the damage to universities etc etc

the damage of the Thatcher years is still evident right across the UK

Think for a minute about US Pharma if, as is likely, they seek lengthened patents or similar which raise the prices paid by the NHS. Obviously as part of a trade deal ‘negotiation’ (aka surrender). As a result, the prices paid by US patients could be lowered.

Now try to envisage a situation where a presidential candidate could get elected on a policy where they effectively say “Fellow citizens. We are going to raise the prices you pay for drugs back to pre 2020 levels so we can subsidise a social healthcare system in another country”. Their electorate would tell them to go **** themselves.

Once that kind of thing happens when we agree to (surrender to) a US trade deal it is gone forever.

I fully expect the end of the UK with an independent Scotland and a united Ireland ( that may not count as damage of course depending on viewpoint) but the loss of jobs …

If Tories can make UK competitive then I doubt there will stomach for futher independence calls. People are attracted by prosperity but for the moment they think EU has greener pasture …

IMO if Tories are able to create a platform for business to flourish then we are looking at 20 years minimum.

No danger there, then.

p/s: by that time many of you will be much older and as we know the older you get more “Tories” you become.

I used to vote Tory (in the late 90s and 2000s). I will never vote for them ever again. I call it growing up and growing a conscience.

dannyh

Member
Think for a minute about US Pharma if, as is likely, they seek lengthened patents or similar which raise the prices paid by the NHS. Obviously as part of a trade deal ‘negotiation’ (aka surrender). As a result, the prices paid by US patients could be lowered.

Now try to envisage a situation where a presidential candidate could get elected on a policy where they effectively say “Fellow citizens. We are going to raise the prices you pay for drugs back to pre 2020 levels so we can subsidise a social healthcare system in another country”. Their electorate would tell them to go **** themselves.

Once that kind of thing happens when we agree to (surrender to) a US trade deal it is gone forever.

Any new government could come in and rip up any trade deal they liked. A trade deal isn’t something that needs to be adhered to forever.

No danger there, then.

That depends on how many incompetent/competent ministers they have in the govt that have no clue about business competition.

I used to vote Tory (in the late 90s and 2000s). I will never vote for them ever again. I call it growing up and growing a conscience.

Well, not everyone but the statistical fact is that older people tend to vote Tories.

As a result, the prices paid by profits paid to US patients shareholders could be lowered increased

FTFY

I’m not convinced that politicians really have as much control over the direction of the country as most of you surmise. For example, had Thatcher never gained power, I suspect that British society would look much like it does now – our particular brand of post-industrialism was inevitable, no matter how many northerners lament the end of dangerous and dirty manual jobs in towns that were as awful when they were built as they are today.

JP

The odd paradox is lots of my mates that work in the housing and building trades prospered hugely under Thatcher, given the size of the house(s) they have. They all voted leave as they felt undercut in the last few years. They could just retire at 50. So when we met up at Christmas it was pointless telling them of the Armageddon coming this way.