jonostevens – bloke:

I recently wrecked the Fox fork on my 2012 Ghost and really struggled to find another one.

Personally think this is a huge problem. 5 year old bike?
These problems with forks which are older than 3 years you hear a lot.
I bought one where I need a new wheel now…

Fox doesn’t care about customers which have a 5 year old Fox fork?
Crazy.

it was £233 four years ago apparently

up to £253ish in 2015…

useful 2016 round up of the EU bicycle market. (the UK was apparently 17% of the market at that point)

Based on the trajectory of prices over the last few years a £300 average sounds credible, remember its an average, C2W will drag it towards £1k, BSOs down towards £100, it settles out around the £300 mark… No doubt there will be more published stats available somewhere.

You need to remember that STW (and other forums) will tend to give a skewed picture as they’re full of enthusiasts spending more than the average (even the “cheapskates”)…

I’ll highlight again that the average cost of a new bike in the UK is around £300

I think one thing you may not be taking into account is enthusiasts raving about their new bike and cycling in general.

10 years ago when I got my first 160mm trail bike I would rave about it to friends and co-workers whether they were interested or not. I found it amazing that a bike that would have been dominating the downhill scene just a few years ago could go up hills almost as well as a XC bike from a few years ago (might have been exaggerating a bit but the leap in performance from 1997 to 2007 makes the increase in performance between 2007 and 2017 seem non-existent).

Now if I talk about bikes at all it’s to lament the fact that there has been little progress in the last 10 years except that the industry is constantly trying to make last year’s bike obsolete.

It’s not really a good advertisement for cycling and this may well have a trickle down effect to people who are considering buying their first £300 bike.

From 2014… http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/average-price-of-a-bike-is-just-233/016304

Although I’ve also found this from Cycling UK

https://www.cyclinguk.org/resources/cycling-uk-cycling-statistics#How many cycles are sold in Great Britain?

Suggesting £480. That’s quite a jump from previous figures and I wonder if there’s an accounting difference.

10 years ago when I got my first 160mm trail bike I would rave about it to friends and co-workers whether they were interested or not.
(Snip)

Now if I talk about bikes at all it’s to lament the fact that there has been little progress in the last 10 years except that the industry is constantly trying to make last year’s bike obsolete.

You really prefer to talk to coworkers about this, rather than explaining injuries or where you’ve been?

Do you actually ride a bike?

I just explained your post to my girlfriend who rides what’s probably the first iteration of the “Road+” Bike in the uk (I called it BMinus) and she was highly confused. She just rides that bike.

Thankfully, people aren’t being put off cycling because of you condemning flat mount brake standards to your colleagues.

And yes, as per Onion’s post, the audience here is so irrelevant to the bike mass market it’s almost incidental.

or where you’ve been?

Do you actually ride a bike?

you can ride you bike without having to travel anywhere or does it only count if you go to the alps ?

you can ride you bike without having to travel anywhere or does it only count if you go to the alps ?

The only way you can ride a bike without going anywhere is on one of those turbo trainer things.

Interestingly the Dutch apparently spend about twice what we do (on average) given “cycling as transport” is more the Dutch MO, where in the UK we seem to treat it more as a leasure/sport activity and keep pointing towards the “Dutch model” for cycling infrastructure improvements.

I do wonder if the UK cycle industry should consider adjusting their focus towards supporting infrastructure improvements and getting more people regularly cycling for transport, it could drag up their average sale value, grow profits as well as sales volumes.

Like I said several pages back, £8k wundersleds are not actually the most important part of the market…

It’s going to be fascinating to watch the development of bikes as urban transportation bearing in mind the increasing influx of hire or sharing based models (from Boris to Mobike et al)

How this will affect the market for consumer owned models is going to be really interesting to watch, much as how the car market is affected by autonomous vehicles

You really prefer to talk to coworkers about this, rather than explaining injuries or where you’ve been?

Do you actually ride a bike?

Well, I have two kids now so yes, I do tell them that almost all my riding consists of taking the kids to the nursery in the trailer and grabbing an hour in the hill near my house when I can but that doesn’t take long.

But yes, ten years ago I did spend a lot of time telling them how amazing my new bike was because I was genuinely amazed. I would talk about riding but it tended to be things like, ‘Can you believe that I took my bike down the Fort William World Cup track, (oh you don’t know what that is, well trust me, it’s one of the toughest tracks in the world) and the next day I rode the same bike up a munroe. No way you could do that with the same bike just a few years ago.’

But yeah, I’m not one of these people who doesn’t care about bikes and only wants to ride. I enjoy tinkering and trying new things out. Recently I put 3″ wide tyres on a 24″ rim to see how it did in the snow so maybe I talk about the bikes rather than the riding more than most people.

Sorry if that doesn’t live up to your standards of what a mountain biker should be.

ten years ago I did spend a lot of time telling them how amazing my new bike was because I was genuinely amazed. I would talk about riding but it tended to be things like, ‘Can you believe that I took my bike down the Fort William World Cup track, (oh you don’t know what that is, well trust me, it’s one of the toughest tracks in the world) and the next day I rode the same bike up a munroe. No way you could do that with the same bike just a few years ago.’

**** knows what they must have made of that Bruce.

Half the bikes in Britain cost less than your suspension forks and the most popular tv programme is Mrs Browns Boys.

Never mind what I might think. They must think you’re nuts.

Never mind what I might think. They must think you’re nuts.

Well yeah, but that doesn’t have as much to do with me talking about mountain biking as you might think 🙂

And it didn’t do enough to stop a couple of them buying bikes and coming out riding with me.

3 inch tires on 24 inch rims …. were you not around in the late 90s?

People who buy £300 bikes;
Don’t know or care about standards
Have never heard of a gravel bike
Would not be able to tell the difference between a 2018 model and a 1998 model

I witnessed this perfectly on Xmas day at my stepdaughters house. A relation of hers said he needed to/couldn’t wait to get out on the bike & I asked was it a road bike or MTB. MTB says he, so naturally I asked what it was, ‘ohh err, (looks at his Mrs) dunno, what is again dear? (she’d got him it for Xmas) & she says, ‘I don’t know but it’s black’.
So he seemed eager to ride it but didn’t know what he was riding!

So he seemed eager to ride it but didn’t know what he was riding!

in other words: happy bloke

It’s true, BruceWee is a serial tinkerer.

I was going to argue with his point about bikes not coming on over the past 10-15 or so years, but he’s got a good point. I have a 2005 coiler that would take on anything (though it was bought a bit small for me, and cheap, a couple of years ago).

I had a chat with a guy at work that’s mildly interested in biking from the perspective of being reasonably outdoorsy, he was genuinely surprised that a reasonably rideable bike could be taken up Ben Lomond and ridden (99% of the way unless you’re a trials rider with some serious amount of bottle) down without damage.

My newer (lighter and 29er) bikes will be *a bit* faster uphill and along the flat, but the difference would be minimal if the coiler fitted me properly and you’re right, progress has been incremental – although I was gagging for a full sus 29er after finally getting around to putting together a 29er HT which in most places performed as well as the coiler down hills.

I can’t really get across to the man in the street, or even the man on the hills, that my newer bike is very slighty better rolling, but many would be impressed at what any trail bike from the past 10 years or so could do. On the other hand, cheaper and cheaper bikes have been becoming OK enough to not cringe when someone says they’re buying one – £500 MTBs are still OK, despite now having suspension forks and hydraulic disc brakes, and inflation meaning this is really a much lower price point.

C2W allowance hasn’t increased from £1k either despite inflation and this can’t help, but again you can get an OK bike for commuting for £1k.

So he seemed eager to ride it but didn’t know what he was riding!

Exactly. Doubt he was too concerned about bottom bracket standards, in fact I would put money on him not even being able to point to the bottom bracket.

I was going to argue with his point about bikes not coming on over the past 10-15 or so years, but he’s got a good point. I have a 2005 coiler that would take on anything (though it was bought a bit small for me, and cheap, a couple of years ago).

I had a chat with a guy at work that’s mildly interested in biking from the perspective of being reasonably outdoorsy, he was genuinely surprised that a reasonably rideable bike could be taken up Ben Lomond and ridden (99% of the way unless you’re a trials rider with some serious amount of bottle) down without damage.

My newer (lighter and 29er) bikes will be *a bit* faster uphill and along the flat, but the difference would be minimal if the coiler fitted me properly and you’re right, progress has been incremental – although I was gagging for a full sus 29er after finally getting around to putting together a 29er HT which in most places performed as well as the coiler down hills.

I can’t really get across to the man in the street, or even the man on the hills, that my newer bike is very slighty better rolling, but many would be impressed at what any trail bike from the past 10 years or so could do.

The best ride I’ve *ever* had was a two day trip up the middle bit of the West Highland Way on an £109 Apollo Forma.

It’s going to be fascinating to watch the development of bikes as urban transportation bearing in mind the increasing influx of hire or sharing based models (from Boris to Mobike et al)

How this will affect the market for consumer owned models is going to be really interesting to watch, much as how the car market is affected by autonomous vehicles

Yes, it’ll be interesting – apparently private hire car usage is way up, mostly due to Uber et al, so it doesn’t even have to be autonomous. Though there are indications that that modal share isn’t coming from car drivers, it’s coming from bus and train users, so it’s not good.

How this’ll work with the bike industry no-one knows. The UK doesn’t do much non-leisure cycling at the moment, the hire schemes might do a lot to get more people thinking about using bikes for transport, especially if electric bike schemes get off the ground and work well.

Cycling infrastructure is what’ll really decide it.

I have for many years bought frames and components and always constantly upgraded my builds, and honestly really enjoyed the process. Maybe not a typical buyer, but for me a big part of the enjoyment of the hobby.

I bought some 26” Enves for my Santa Cruz pretty much just at the time that everybody then went to 27.5”.

I then bought a 27.5” Yeti frane, again speccing carbon wheels, and almost immediately everybody went to boost meaning my 27.5” wheels with 142mm hub are now useless to upgrade to the next new frame.

I honestly felt rather ****** off at this experience and decided I was kind of done with the luxury brands. Last couple of years have spent money other hobbies (Ducati road bike, Kawasaki ATV) where I dont feel I wil get totally flip flopped by the brands I support.

Biking and windsurfing have both give mental. A reasonable bike costing what to plenty of people is a months salary…. And we’re talking with deore kit etc. Windsurfing boards are now £2k for a lump of polystyrene with a limited amount of carbon.

Someone somewhere is doing very very well out of this. Hopefully the interest free credit lark will end soon!

How the hell do manufacturers justify a £6k mountain bike, there’s not exactly many parts to a bike especially when you can buy a bloody motorbike for the same money.

It’s a hobby, we’re all deemed as wealthy, therefore a target to get shafted. Don’t even get me started on carbon…..

How the hell do manufacturers justify a £6k mountain bike, there’s not exactly many parts to a bike especially when you can buy a bloody motorbike for the same money.

Economies of scale – motorbikes are made in much bigger numbers, and most of the bits (like the engine) don’t completely change every year. It’s not the number of parts, it’s how expensive those parts are to make.

I think infrastructure is possibly one of the best points made thus far….

We here on this forum are probably the least likely to have an impact upon sales figures, however our money is very much valued. However this fact is irrelevant.

I firmly believe that education and culture will have a big impact upon bike sales. We need to invest more in raising awareness of the benefits of cycling, not just for leisure but for commuting too.

As for the rental scheme, can anyone remember seeing this in the news ….

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/25/chinas-bike-share-graveyard-a-monument-to-industrys-arrogance

How the hell do manufacturers justify a £6k mountain bike, there’s not exactly many parts to a bike especially when you can buy a bloody motorbike for the same money

Economies of scale, plus you could buy a mountain bike for £1k.

Try buying a motorbike with a carbon frame for £6k. Even try buying a rolling carbon chassis for £6k.

There does seem to be a lot of fat in the bike industry, there’s certainly some pricing to the market, but a lot of it comes down to (relatively) low volumes and associated manufacturing techniques.

How the hell do manufacturers justify a £6k mountain bike, there’s not exactly many parts to a bike especially when you can buy a bloody motorbike for the same money.

this thread, this discusssion: lot’s about the £6k and £8k sled.
Many voices that this is not the part where the “bike industry” is suffering. Many say it’s the £400 bike market which is suffering.

But your point jonesyboy-bloke:
Thinking about this as well.

Goofy calculation:

12 kg sled and £6000
is £500 per kg sled
for high end mountain bike

Price for an A380 airplane (quickly googled. not sure if this is 100%right)
around £ 400 000 000
weight about 560 000 kg
is £ 700 per kg airplane

(if this calculation is wrong I will blame my calculator…) 😉

Means a high end mounatin bike is in an £ / kg range of a modern, certified airplane.

If this is justified or not I can’t say.
My “feeling” was: a bike is not space technology…?

Production numbers: A380 manufactured in very low numbers, high end mountain bikes in very high numbers…- bit surprised so that they nearly sell for the same £ / kg rate…
😯

Whilst the above is a good rough calculation, the bike industry will sell stuff for as much as they can ….
Hence bespoke stuff going for silly money … but the risk is the consumer gets alienated

The bubble for boutique stuff is declining as the added vale is marginal …

The best ride I’ve *ever* had was a two day trip up the middle bit of the West Highland Way on an £109 Apollo Forma.

It’s a nice place to ride, and if you’re mechanically competent and sympathetic I’m sure you could have fun on it.

It’s not about the bike (even for those of us that can’t afford the good drugs).

Production numbers: A380 manufactured in very low numbers, high end mountain bikes in very high numbers…- bit surprised so that they nearly sell for the same £ / kg rate…

Thinking about this. Mmmmhhhh…

Numbers I heard from a guy who is working at one of the big hig end mountain bike brands:

unpainted high end aluminium full suspension frame made in Asia, excellent quality, ready for assembly: around 150 £

purchasing rate:
£ / kg
for easy numbers assume 1.5 kg very low weight full suspension frame
100 £ / kg purchasing from Asia (frame only)

Whilst the above is a good rough calculation, the bike industry will sell stuff for as much as they can

Whereas every other industry just gives stuff away if you ask nicely?

unpainted high end aluminium full suspension frame made in Asia, excellent quality, ready for assembly: around 150 £

Yup, that’s about right. But that’s your base price – then you need to add painting, a good paint job is what sells many bikes and that can double the price. Then you need to ship it to the assembly factory, and build it up into a bike. But before you get to that stage, you need to design the frame – and that’s not just the frame design itself, it’s the market research to work out that you can sell, it’s the costings to work out if you can build it for what people will pay, it’s a lot of work by clever people that you need to pay for.

Oh, and to get a frame for £150, you can’t just buy one – you need to commit (and often pay upfront) for lots of them.

Whereas every other industry just gives stuff away if you ask nicely?

Nope, my point was every consumer product is priced at the pinch point. But to make a yeti bike more desirable than a Bird, and that more desirable to a Carrera, then there has to be “benefits’

Up to a 3 grand these benefits are easy identified …. but after this probably not so …

That also applies to cars etc… a Dacia Duster is funtionally the same as an X3… but people will pay more because they see that BMW says something about them…
Is an Apple MacBook really worth twice the price of a non windows PC?

But there is a point when even the most committed lose interest. I used to love Orange bikes … and would look no further that that brand. But now … meh!
I currently have 3 Cotics but feel they will go the same way at some stage ….
I would love a BTR …. but 3 grand for a frame … hell, it just hold the wheels and handlebars together ..

I also feel that the bike industry is doing itself no favours with 29 vs 27.5 vs 26 and then not showing any commitment ( plus wheels anyone)
Boost vs non boost …. really?

Oh, and to get a frame for £150, you can’t just buy one – you need to commit (and often pay upfront) for lots of them.

Yes – that’s correct.
From approx 30 pieces you get good rebates
From approx 300 pieces you will pay already much less than above.

But same is true for Shimano / SRAM drive train components and Fox Forks and and an.

One of the big, powerful bike brands – what do they pay for a £1200 (retail) Fox fork?
Around £300 or less?

Yes – there are marketing costs, engineering costs, financing costs and so on.
But the margin on a 6k wonder sled is a bit crazy…

Reason why the industry is pushing so hard for it.
As noted in many posts, this thread: like other industries as well…

Bike industry for high end mountain bikes is not different there.
But for electronics we swallow that my machine is obsolete after 2 years. For the bike not.

Interesting thread this.
My mountain biking has reduced significantly following a nasty leg and ankle break last year, and I’ve done more road riding. I treated myself to a new Giant Defy, carbon, discs, through axles. It’s lovely. Can I tell the difference against my previous 10 year old Spesh Roubaix? Not really if I’m honest.
As far as MTB’s go, I have 3. A beautiful Ti XC hardtail (from mid-late 2000’s) that weighs nothing and will last forever. A second Ti hardtail, couple of years old, relaxed geometry, 160mm fork, it’s lovely. Then I have my full carbon Mojo HD, 160mm front and rear, picked it up 2nd hand for £1300. It’s immaculate.
All my MTB’s are 26″ wheeled. I’ll never change them, I’ll never need to change them.
I’ve never ridden a 29er or a 650B, and have no need to. Why? Because my 26″ wheeled mountain bikes do all I ask of them, and can do do far more as their capability far exceeds mine.
More bike shops seem to stock road bikes now as they just can’t stock all the various bits for MTB’s anymore due to the crazy standards. I still believe most MTB riders ride 26″ bikes. This may not be the case at trail centres, that are in their own world, but out in the countryside I still see far more 26″ wheel bikes.
Virtually every bike is more capable than it’s rider, money would be better spent by people to increase their skills rather than having a 5mm wider rear hub.
However, for me, it won’t change. Bad crashes have a strong effect, and I doubt I’ll ever MTB to the same degree again, let alone buy another MTB.
Just my views, not concerned if people agree or don’t. Just ride whatever bike you have, just remember that if you’ve never experienced a Merlin Metalworks XLM Ti hardtail, then you haven’t lived 🙂

a Dacia Duster is funtionally the same as an X3… but people will pay more because they see that BMW says something about them…

The duster is better off road for a start.

But no people pay more because there’s no holds barred a BMW is a better quality of car you just need to sit in/drive then both to become acutely aware of the differences.

I suspect that even if the BMW said dacia on the front it would still sell well if it was the same car.

Dusters a blow mould plastic turd. I’d still buy one though as I like cheap basic motoring.

I wouldn’t buy a beemer as too much to go wrong

A better badge based engineering example would to compare a golf with a Fabia or what ever the equivalent is. Essentially the same car but 9/10 times barring price people would take the golf as the VW name holds more value.

But for electronics we swallow that my machine is obsolete after 2 years. For the bike not.

Thing is, a PC is obsolete after a certain time, depending on what you do with it, because it won’t run the latest software. As an analogy for bikes, if the bike is the hardware, what’s the software, the trails? I was bouncing around Cannock Chase in the late 80s on a Raleigh Cajun with rigid forks and biopace cranks. If I still had it, I could get around there now. Until a few months ago I was riding around the Chase on a 2002 Cove Handjob, now I’m on a Sonder Transmitter. I think I might be faster on the Sonder but I’ve resisted the Strava bug so far so I don’t know. It’s lots of fun though and that’s why I do it. Would I have more fun on an £8k wonder sled (love that phrase btw)? I don’t know but I’m no way splurging that amount of cash on what is for me, a toy.

The point is, the bike is never obsolete while you can get parts to replace the bits you break/wear out. All the innovations are good, bikes are definitely better than they were but no one needs it unless they really want to be riding more extreme trails than the one they’re getting round on their current ride. There’s also the issue of skills. I’d be embarrassed to be riding one of those wonder sleds because frankly, it’d be wasted on me.

But for electronics we swallow that my machine is obsolete after 2 years. For the bike not.

And – what I meant:

“For the bike not – and it’s right so”.

Absolutely in line with:

The point is, the bike is never obsolete

And this thread indicates: many bikers try to keep their bikes going. And this is great.

What I believe is sad: to meet kids on the trails, biking a 1 k sled and being UNHAPPY THAT THEY DON’T HAVE A FOX fork…
Instead of being really, really happy riding – no matter which bike they have.

That also applies to cars etc… a Dacia Duster is funtionally the same as an X3… but people will pay more because they see that BMW says something about them…

People will pay more because the BMW is better in every perceived or actual way. They are both 4×4 and both will drive you down the road but after that they have little in common. You could replace BMW with most other manufacturers when comparing it to the Duster.

Shouldn’t this discussion be about how we can move forward and make cycling a more accessible and accepted leisure/ practical activity?

Everybody knows how to move forward.Does’nt need a new thread.
The other stuff,easy….just convince the ‘industry’ (‘they’ meet every other wednesday in the back room of the Horse & Jockey at 7.40) that they’ll make more money.And then get someone else to pay for it.

Davedodd
I agree entirely,most bikes I see are still 26″ all my MTB’s are 26″ and I have lost the desire to upgrade due to utter confusion over what is likely to be a sustainable standard.I used to spend a good chunk of cash on components and upgrades but not now.
The only downside is that when riding with people who have 29’ers it is definitely harder to keep up. The industry is the main loser here however I feel.