I was looking at this yesterday:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5712406.ece

The RAF didn’t say what type of plane it was. Being a nerd I thought “looks like a Dominie”.

Today the RAF have announced it’s a Grob Tutor. Doesn’t look like one to me. I think the pictue shows a T-tail which the tutor doesn’t have. What do you reckon?

grob tutor
Dominie

Looking at it now, I’m not sure it is a Dominie, but it certainly doesn’t look like a tutor.

I went up in a Chipmonk with a fastjet pilot. Loved it. Even loved it when he said ‘lets have some fun’ and carried out various acrobatic maneuvers. I can remember him saying ‘turn off your mouthpiece etc’ in my ear as I was trying to gip. Loved it. My heart goes out to their family. I hope it doesnt stop parents letting their children go on future flights. Yes there is a risk- We were told the parachutes would save our lives however we’d break a few bones!

Its not a t-tail, its the tail of the Gorb Tutor upside down, as I believe might happen in an aircraft crash.

Why sully the tragic deaths of two air cadets and two RAF instructors with some tin foil conspiracy theory twaddle?

looks to me like the remains of the tail section is upside down in the times picture (top of tail missing) so it does look like a tutor.

Tutor. the tail is upside down. WHat looks like the top of the T is actually the bottom of the tail. Underside up.

I was lucky enough to have a fair few Air Experience flights with 6AEF out of Abbingdon as a kid and I’d hate for this to put and end to it. It’s a truely awful accident but it’s not exactly commonplace.

Regarding the dominie, I also thought I saw a larger plane from the wreckage at first, but to be honest, it’s hard to tell when it’s all over South Wales like that. I used to be good in Wing Aircraft Recognition comps too!

Grob Tutor’s are the standard AEF (Air Experience Flight) aircraft. Back in my day it was Chipmunks then they replaced them with Bulldogs about the time I was at uni.
Dominie is the RAF name for a Hawker-Siddeley 125 twin-jet business aircraft so there’s a hell of a difference between a small single-prop Grob and a twin-jet Dominie!

Regardless of pointless pedantry, it’s a tragic occurrence and my thoughts go out to those concerned.

What sootyandjim and crazy-legs said.

Whoah! Didn’t mean to offend anyone, I was in the cadets for several years. I just missed out on Chipmunks and flew Bulldogs instead. I also did my gliding scholarship and flew solo. I just couldn’t see that it looked like a tutor, that was all.

When did they phase out the chipmonks?

When did they phase out the chipmonks?

1995ish, although 2 are still in service with the BBMF.

I learnt to fly in the Chippy with 1AEF. A lovely aircraft to do aeros in above the rolling fields of Kent and RAF Manston must have the easiest runway in the UK to spot and land on, seeing as its bloody huge.

My first Chippy instructor was a former Vulcan Display Flight pilot.

– “Jump, jump Johnny.”

– “Jump, jumping Sir.”

(From memory) I think we landed on grass? sounds odd?

Nope.

At RAF Manston, although it had a whacking great big runway built for accepting emergency diversions we often took off and landed from the grass strip alongside it.

Big.

Same as S&J, I flew from 1 AEF at Manston (or as it was amusingly named for a while Kent International Airport!).
Chipmunks for most of my time, it was late 1995 when they were all gone and replaced by Bulldogs.

I was lucky enough to have a fair few Air Experience flights with 6AEF out of Abbingdon

Hey, me too, from memory I think my 3822 records about 6 flights…I’ve got a shoulder patch somewhere 😀

Is that a 747 I spot there? Probably Quantas playing silly buggers again? 🙄

This

Looks like this

in this position

look at the little bit at the bottom of the tail. Its the same.

Is that a 747 I spot there? Probably Quantas playing silly buggers again?

No I believe its the ex-Air Atlanta 747 that was retired a little early after an RAF muppet (Mover) decided that its forward pressure bulkhead would really look better with a nice vehicle shaped hole in it.

It was retried as the cost of repairing the damage was uneconomical.

I went up a few times in a grob too, amazing fun. Awesome little planes too.
wings stay on up to something daft like amillionG, try that in a chipmunk! (exageration, but i know its abnormaly high)
proper rugged little buggers.
also been up in a bulldog and a viking i seem to remember,

FYI, this is the first Air experience accident IIRC, unfortunate, i hope it dosent hamper the AE program, because its awesome.

FYI, this is the first Air experience accident IIRC, unfortunate, i hope it dosent hamper the AE program, because its awesome.

Many years ago (also at RAF St Athan) there was an AEF Chipmunk taking off that caught its undercarriage in the arrester net at the end of the runway and just went straight in. Only the pilot on board, poor guy never stood a chance. 🙁

Like you say, AEF is an amazing opportunity and long may it continue in spite of this awful accident.

You’ve got to ask if they were taking unnecessary risks with air experience cadets. Two instructors with two teenage girls? One is left wondering just what they were trying to prove. Why couldn’t they just fly a bit further apart? There has to be some serious investigation of this one.

You’ve got to ask if they were taking unnecessary risks with air experience cadets. Two instructors with two teenage girls? One is left wondering just what they were trying to prove. Why couldn’t they just fly a bit further apart? There has to be some serious investigation of this one.

I see the public board of enquiry has already sat, my that evidence must have been easy to collect so quick.

Oh sorry, you mean you’re just commenting based on what you’ve read in the meeja? Then why don’t you STFU and allow the real board of enquiry to come to the decision on the accidents cause and any possible fault, based on actual evidence rather than conjecture and public opinion, eh?

whoa mountaincarrot. Alittle too early.

What sootyandjim said – please – no more ramblings and guessing – some people put a lot of effort into providing the truth about this in good time.

Anyone else see on the news exactly where they crashed? for those who didn’t and have been to Afan, when you are on the final stretch of motorway you drive past some sand dunes, just before the golf course. They crashed in those Dunes on the far edge.

Sad accident, but it could have been much worse if they had hit the motorway or port toilet.

I believe there are three concurrent inquiries, local fuzz, air accident and raf boi.

but im sure some tw4t on an mtb forum knows better – its bound to be a conspiracy if the official investigations disagree with gossip and conjecture.

I think everyone got that point soobalias

it will be difficult to explain why 2 Tutors were so close with Air Cadets on board – there is supposed to be a mandatory minimum of 1 mile separation wih Air Cadets on board and formation flying is absolutely prohibited.

Flying

Without drawing conclusions. the article is a bit confused ATC and UAS (university air squadron) cadets, are both mentioned. If UAS then uni girls and young pilots showing off?

A few years ago we had a wee dog fight over the fife coast but huge space between planes. Clocked many hours in the tutor great plane although the wings do creak under g loading 😯

kev – don’t be a chod. You are speculating over something that is now public knowledge and we know the ages and names. Telling us about your time flying doesn’t exactly add to anything either.

richc – dumb people will always post when they should have got the point – its the internet law.

If UAS then uni girls and young pilots showing off

I’m sure there would be strict rules and guidelines over this even if a few instances did sneak through. Cant trainee fastjet pilots be binned at anypoint and are continually assessed?

as much as speculation is annoying I am not sure the speculation here is any different to any of the other posts on all the other OT posts…..ease up a wee bit, just a thought being publically aired

With or without 1 mile separation there are still a lot of blind spots on an aircraft and a distinct lack of RADAR on Grob Tutors I’m willing to bet. Accidents can still happen, particularly during aerobatic maneuvers which is what half the time is spent doing on your average AEF unless things have changed that much in 16 years.

the lasses were 13 and 14 i believe, so unlikely to be willy waving.
im sure everyone is baffled as to how they got into close proximity without taking action to keep away from each other, but accidents happen, simple as that.
one could come up with 50 sensible theoreys, but lets not.

Absolutely tragic – i live in porthcawl and it could have been so much worse. By chance it occurred over a large uninhabited area but only a few 100 yards away are a town and the m4. There by the grace of god etc. I know that the people 1st on the scene saw unimagineable sights of carnage. It will take them some time to get over this. My thoughts are with the families of those killed and those lay people 1st on the scene.

Only read the article, which is confused on the ATC/UAS front. Had no time for any other articles been working (sorry but it’s true). Speculation is the nature of people when something like this happens.
I do think it’s a massive tradegy for all concerned.
The Grob Tutor is a pretty sturdy little plane but does have some blind spots (name me one plane that doesn’t).

as has been said its a real tradgedy this has happened as there have been so few accidents in the history of Air Experience Flying.

i’ve got many happy memories of flying in the tutors out of various AEF’s around the country, it was always great to chat to some of the pilots about what their former flying careers, one pilot i flew with was the commander in chief of the RAF until the previous year, he flew harriers in the Falklands.

its quite difficult to speculate why the crash happened, especially without knowing other factors such as what the local weather conditions were like at the time. either way its a terrible thing to have happened

weather was perfect down here, still and clear blue, i was out about half an hour before the crash and it couldnt have been any better for flying

hmmm, if thats the case it does seem quite odd they didnt see each other.
possibly one or both aircraft were doing aerobatics as they often do on AEF flights and just didnt see each other/ realise they were both in the same area.
i guess the results of the investigation will shed some light.

It’s amazing how many ‘plane/flying/flight accident experts there are on STW!!

Unbelievable arrogance IMO.

Lisen to Tootall, I reckon he’s the only one in a position to comment.