I never mentioned range no I mentioned pricing which as you can see they fall under. If you go for a similar price there’s a few there too with a similar range or even better, Tesla are losing their grip.

OK so you’re comparing apples with oranges, seems entirely pointless. Tesla are not trying to make the cheapest EV on the market, far from it.

No, you just ignored my point there are some cheaper more affordable EVs on their way.

squirrelking

My citroen auto wipers respectfully disagree.

Have you tried new wiper blades? Our Citroen auto wipers were truly horrendous – lurching across the screen either too fast or too slow, going at max speed in light drizzle etc.

We had some new Bosch blades put on a few months back & it absolutely transferred the operation of the intermittent wipe. I can only think that the new wipers are clearing the sensor area more effectively, so making the system better able to detect the level of water falling on the screen.

Might be worth a try.

No, you just ignored my point there are some cheaper more affordable EVs on their way

There are already cheaper EVs available. They aren’t competing against Tesla – so what about the new ones coming are going to hurt Tesla as you stated? You think someone who is about to spend £36k+ on a Model 3 now will suddenly switch to a £25k EV with half the range & performance just because there’s a few more of them to choose from next year? It’s about as nonsensical as telling someone not to get a Audi A4 now as a there will be cheaper cars available next year and you’re actually talking about a Ford Fiesta

Ah! Forget it.

They’re either not competing with the Model 3 (range/performance/interior quality) or are similar pricing/more expensive. You didn’t fall for the sub £30k ID 3 pricing did you? That’s for the crippled version, the usable version (close to the standard Model 3 range/performance) will more likely be £40k

What you did there was an actual realistic comparison rather than just spout some general rubbish about cheaper EVs taking Tesla’s market away. I’ve been following the ID 3 forums a little and loads of people with reservations are now jumping ship to the base Model 3 because a) it’s available right now b) it doesn’t look any more expensive and c) it has more performance, range and interior space. Not to mention the all-important Supercharger network. So unless you really want a VW, there isn’t a lot of incentive to buy an ID 3 over a Tesla 3. Being a hatchback is about the only thing going for it besides the badge (and a VW badge does nothing for me these days).

https://www.speakev.com/threads/canceling-id-3-reservation.142141/page-7

Not a model 3 but my neighbour has a Tesla Model X. He’s happy enough with it and the children love the folding gull wing doors but…… the heater broke and it took about 6 weeks to fix during which the dealer supplied a non-electric vehicle, which put me right off them. Judging by the amount of time that he has one of the dealers cars on his drive rather than the Tesla, it also spends alot of time back at the dealers. Now maybe he has a ‘Friday’ car, but it does not seem to be very reliable…………

Has anyone tried to get 2 med mountain bikes in the M3 boot? (Back seat down obvsly.) Wheels off is fine but preferably just front wheels off.

Not a model 3 but my neighbour has a Tesla Model X. He’s happy enough with it and the children love the folding gull wing doors but…… the heater broke and it took about 6 weeks to fix during which the dealer supplied a non-electric vehicle, which put me right off them. Judging by the amount of time that he has one of the dealers cars on his drive rather than the Tesla, it also spends alot of time back at the dealers. Now maybe he has a ‘Friday’ car, but it does not seem to be very reliable…………

Model X reliability is a bit hit or miss. Early examples in particular (up to around mid 2017) had all sorts of issues, including heater failures. But then they sorted pretty much everything out and it is now a great car. We’ve got 30k miles on our early 2018 Model X with zero faults. I wouldn’t worry about Model 3 reliability as they have been pretty well sorted by now too.

Having driven a Tesla 3 Long Range AWD, I can’t see why anyone would actually need to spend the extra on the Performance model – the LR does 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, which is 996 911 quick… The Performance comes with bigger brakes (not that you use brakes that much on the Tesla) and 20in wheels, which might look cool, but it’s going to be £300 a corner for tyres and forget getting winter ones in that size. Unless you’re going to track day it, then the ‘normal’ LR is fast enough for anyone.

What’s everyone’s view on residual values in say 3 years. It’s probable that battery technology moves on and your old Tesla will be potentially like an old laptop?

bikebouy

This is the sort of thing that now is sorted with a software update. This is what I like,

I actually find that pretty off-putting to be honest.
It’s all well and good when they add a feature you like, and it works; but software updates can and do break or remove features you already had. Entire cars have been soft-bricked from failed OTA updates.

I’m on the Tesla subreddit and other examples I’ve seen are one update that caused somebody to nearly crash as their autopilot suddenly didn’t behave the same after a major version change (think it tried to change lanes into someone having never done so on the previous version), and another update had slowed some people’s cars down too.

It’s a tricky one and one of the reasons why I was looking at leasing as part of me was concerned about residuals. But the Model 3 has been out a couple of years in the US and there’s been no massive shift in technology since then and whilst there is some interesting new battery tech in development (using graphene etc.) the chances of it being commercially ready (at the scale EV cars need anyway) in the next few years is pretty slim.

As for other manufacturers catching up to Tesla (in terms of range/performance/cost) that’s probably more likely but then, AFAIK, traditional car manufacturers are just buying in batteries (OK with a fair bit of investment in some cases) rather than putting the huge effort into it that Tesla has done/is still doing. So if anyone is going to make a big battery break-through it’s likely to be Tesla anyway and maybe they’d then offer some sort of battery exchange option.

I think the biggest problem affecting residuals is EVs are still a relatively small market segment and if that doesn’t change within the next 2 or 3 years it’s going hurt premium EV residuals.

Nah, i think tesla are here to stay.
For example, I investigated getting an electric conversion done on my subaru forester, it would cost 10k, more than the car is worth, but that cost will surely come down in time.
Most of the companies i looked at were using tesla battery packs.
I can’t be the only person who would prefer to reuse an existing car, surely?

Two 27.5 Lapierre Zesties go in a Zoé with both wheels out and pedals off, so I’d be surprised if they don’t fit in just about any EV.

How big is the boot space on the Model 3?
I know what it quotes in Ltr but some real world dimensions would be nice.

I actually find that pretty off-putting to be honest.
It’s all well and good when they add a feature you like, and it works; but software updates can and do break or remove features you already had. Entire cars have been soft-bricked from failed OTA updates.

I’m on the Tesla subreddit and other examples I’ve seen are one update that caused somebody to nearly crash as their autopilot suddenly didn’t behave the same after a major version change (think it tried to change lanes into someone having never done so on the previous version), and another update had slowed some people’s cars down too.

Having experienced first hand every single Tesla software update over the last 2 years, I can say that it’s got a LOT better overall over that timescale. But it is true what you say about updates potentially causing new bugs and features changing. When they first went to V9 for example, Spotify was a nightmare (kept freezing or dropping signal for no reason) for a good few months until they eventually got around to fixing it. Autopilot has also had a few serious bugs come and go, but it’s now pretty solid and night and day better than it was in early 2018.

The upside to all these software updates is a very slick and refined modern UI. The satnav for example is now super slick with Google sat maps and Autopilot integration (it can automatically exit motorways) and makes any other OEM satnav look like a complete joke.

Having driven a Tesla 3 Long Range AWD, I can’t see why anyone would actually need to spend the extra on the Performance model – the LR does 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, which is 996 911 quick…

Same reason you might buy a 996 Turbo over a 996 Carrera. Because you can! It’s more about “want” than “need”. But yeah, the AWD LR is a quick car in its own right, while the P model is full-on supercar quick up to 70 mph and then merely very quick after that. There is a video of Nico Rosberg racing his mate in a Model 3P in a 911 GT2 RS in Monaco and he lost! It was only a quick drag race, but shows how quick this thing actually is off the line i.e. f****** quick!

Has anyone tried to get 2 med mountain bikes in the M3 boot? (Back seat down obvsly.) Wheels off is fine but preferably just front wheels off.

Its a saloon with a relatively narrow opening. You might just be able to squeeze one in there (I’ve had to squeeze bikes through saloon openings in US hire cars on multiple occasions) but I’d be surprised if 2 fit. I’ve no idea if the seat even folds. Maybe 1 on the back seat?

What’s everyone’s view on residual values in say 3 years. It’s probable that battery technology moves on and your old Tesla will be potentially like an old laptop?

I would be more worried about 3 year residuals on a new diesel today. Battery tech is not moving on so quickly either. Supply is the biggest challenge they will face over the coming years.

I’ve no idea if the seat even folds.

Yes the rear bench does fold flat and is split.

Its a saloon with a relatively narrow opening. You might just be able to squeeze one in

I know, but Just wondering if anyone has tried (or willing to try) without having to take the pedals off. A number of you tube vids have described the boot opening as cavernous but relative to what?

If you just google “Model 3 with mountain bikes in the back” or similar you’ll see some youtube clips/images of what fits

As Moshi says, the rear seats both fold flat, but annoyingly the Model 3 is a saloon rather than the hatchback it resembles. So although the boot is deep, plus the added rear seat space, you still have a letterbox shape to fit everything into. Most annoying part of the car really… Hence the need for a tow ball rack – which, incidentally, needs to be factory fitted (the towball gubbins, that is, for a princely £970 extra(!)), so check this if it’s important to you. It can’t be retrofitted, presumably for wiring and towball socket reasons. The towball is removable for neatness/aero.

I’d be more worried about the depreciation of buying a new diesel now than an electric. Car battery life doesn’t seem to be ageing as badly as people (even the OEMs) predicted, so hopefully prices will stay reasonably cheerful.

without having to take the pedals off

Why? It’s eaier than taking the wheels out and means you’re less likely to damage either the other bike or car.

If you don’t like a car don’t buy it, but don’t find silly excuses for yourself then use them as anti-EV propaganda.

It doesn’t really matter what battery tech does over the next few years, the residuals will be based upon the performance and availability of the vehicle. no matter what comes along, you’ll still have a car capable of 300 miles on a charge, o-60 in less than 5 seconds and reasonable comfort. There won’t be that much on the second hand market to compete with it. The danger will be that Tesla manage to cut production costs and thus a new one is cheaper, thus reducing your second hand one. they did this recently with the Model S and Model X. Some owners lost £30000 overnight.

car so “low rent” in appearance and detail. The design of my i3 is streets ahead where it matters, and particularly in ways that make it feel ‘special’ whereas the Tesla feels like a dishwasher.

This. And it’s not just the model 3 or just Tesla. It’s an American thing.

They seem to do great drivetrains, great exterior looks (from a distance) and for Tesla, great suspension and handling, but the interior, paint and fit and finish is just awful. The two model 3 I’ve been in have had substantially different panels gaps on both side of the car, the paint was whisp thin on the panel edges and the interior was all over the place.

US Cars are often cheap for a reason.

Admittedly the Jag iPace is the complete opposite, the exterior and performance isn’t that great, but the quality and interior is lovely.

You think someone who is about to spend £36k+ on a Model 3 now will suddenly switch to a £25k EV

The EV Corsa is £36k.

Yep, £36k for a Corsa. SO the market for Corsa’s generally takes the path of least resistance in a Vauxhall Dealership… Customer: I want a car, Dealer: What car would you like?, Customer; One that goes forwards and backwards and I can get my 4yr old in the back, Dealer; Do you need any more space than that? Customer: No, I got to Tescos in it as well… Dealer: Here is a Black Corsa 1ltr and its cheap to run and Insure, Customer: Has it got a radio? Dealer; Yes, I’ll set up the paperwork shall I.. Is there a part exchange? Customer: Yes, that Red Corsa outside…

And thats pretty much it, hardly any price differences in the grand scheme of things.. Px £2.5k for a 3yr old one and £17k for a new one and thats it..

Getting the Customer to delve into £36k for an EV that they don’t understand or need is going to be challenging to say the least. I honestly don’t think Vauxhalls focus groups have nailed their primary retail market at all..

Regarding the VW ID, well their claiming all sorts of mileages but at least the Golf ID is going to be Golf sized and cost a similar amount to a normal Golf (their words, not mine) which means the Customer walks in and says… Customer; I’d like a new Golf please, Dealer: we have an EV that’ll do 300miles to a charge, can I ask what mileage you do in a week? Customer; About 150-200, Dealer: What colour would you like? Customer; Blue or Grey, Dealer; Px? Customer; Yes the white one outside, Dealer; I’ll set the paperwork up shall I? Customer; Yes, can you tell me how I charge it? Dealer; Yes, certainly follow me….

The VW ID has it nailed IMO. Perfectly matched to customers expectations and priced accordingly.

It’ll be a runaway success and build on the already perceived good name VW have built after the Diesel-Gate affair.

They won’t be able to make them quick enough IMO.

Tesla will still be niche to a lot of people, and that “0-60” ludicrous mode will be pointless laughable gimmick as it is now.

My mate with the P100d used it twice then realised it’s pointless since the grunt it has is more than enough to scare the shit out of any normal driver.

Admittedly the Jag iPace is the complete opposite, the exterior and performance isn’t that great, but the quality and interior is lovely.

Yeah, because it’s not a JLR built product. It was designed and is built in Austria by a company that actually know what they are doing. The design came from them as part of a design mule for another EV car and JLR put their nose and tail on it and badged it with a poncing cat.

The EV Corsa is £36k.

I thought it game in around £30k? Still a lot for Corsa but that’s still £6k less than Tesla.

£36k, it was on FullyCharged show when Jonny was interviewing the EU Sales Director…

They did a direct comparison between a 1ltr and the EV…

Great show FullyCharged.

The VW ID has it nailed IMO. Perfectly matched to customers expectations and priced accordingly.

That’s not what reservation holders are saying on the SpeakEV forum. Now it’s becoming clear that it will be more like a £40k car than the £30k car they expected, many are having second thoughts. Ironically it’s actually boosting Model 3 sales as people jump ship.

What’s everyone’s view on residual values in say 3 years. It’s probable that battery technology moves on and your old Tesla will be potentially like an old laptop?

I wouldn’t worry at all. There are loads of stats on Model S battery lives and they seem to age extremely well; better than anyone was expecting. The Li-ion cells are charged and discharged very conservatively, so they last much longer than say Li-ion bike lights…

They seem to do great drivetrains, great exterior looks (from a distance) and for Tesla, great suspension and handling, but the interior, paint and fit and finish is just awful. The two model 3 I’ve been in have had substantially different panels gaps on both side of the car, the paint was whisp thin on the panel edges and the interior was all over the place.

I don’t understand the obsession with panel gaps and paint thickness. It’s not as if they are perfect on cars with a perceived reputation for “build quality”. I had a dubious bonnet fit on a brand new 911 and I’ve seen some shoddy fit and finish on various Mercs and other “high end” cars. Tesla is merely average these days in that respect (much better than they were even 2 years ago). But they are simply great to drive compared to their ICE equivalents. That’s why they outsell many of their direct ICE rivals. But diehards will always fall back on the quality issues and perceptions, which are not even of much concern these days with Tesla. For me it’s all about the whole driving/ownership experience rather than walking around the exterior with a micrometer and paint thickness gauge.

£36k, it was on FullyCharged show when Jonny was interviewing the EU Sales Director…

Vauxhall website says £29,990 for the base version.

I don’t understand the obsession with panel gaps and paint thickness.

The former is a good gauge of the quality of the rest of the car. The latter tells you where it’ll start to rust. All of my BMWs have been damn near perfect for the former, but Mu mini had a poorly aligned rear door – it leaked as the seal wasn’t properly engaged My Z4MC had stupidly thin pain on the inside of the rear hatch…that’s where it rusted. A mate’s Mazda 3 had paint so thin on the shut lines of the doors that it was rusting noticeably at 3 years old.

Have you tried new wiper blades?

Yeah, last replacement were Bosch Aeros. Thinking about it cleaning the windscreen more often may help but it’s always been flakey. Doesn’t bother me that much as I just use manual, would be happier with variable speed like the Mondeo though.

Yeah, because it’s not a JLR built product. It was designed and is built in Austria by a company that actually know what they are doing.

You mean Jaguar paid the company to do it designed to the specification Jag provided. Nowt wrong with that, alot of car companies do similar things and share and buy designs. The Porsche 924 was a car that VW commissioned Porsche to design and build for them before they pulled the plug and did the Scirocco themselves as they could make it FWD and share platforms with the Golf and other models in the range, so it’s something that has been done by car companies for decades. You say this like it’s a bad thing. It’s not as if the cars JLR actually make are crap quality. My dad has had two now and my mate has had one and they are every bit as high quality as any German car and the interiors are actually much nicer.

Panel gaps don’t necessarily have anything to do with the functionally of the car – if it does then that is a deeper problem with the design and manufacture of the car. It is a measure of repeatability of your manufacturing and assembly processes. The better they are the closer you can design the panel gaps. This is part of the learning Tesla is doing to play catch up with the mainstream manufacturers that have been steadily improving panel gaps for the last 30 or 40 years of car manufacture and production and part of the reason why they’re $1bn in the hole – it costs a hell of alot to buy your way into a very established and mature market. Also wide panel gaps make wind noise and worsen the aerodynamics and can make fitting replacement parts harder. But yeah, the rest is just aesthetics and not something you’d expect from a premium product.

But to be fair to Tesla I think the panel gap thing was something that affected early cars and things are alot better now.

We have one, best car I’ve ever owned, really good.

– range is accurate, can easily surpass the range if you’re careful with right foot/reduce AC/make sure tyres are right pressure etc.

– chargers are fast (and getting faster) on supercharger network.

– roof rack is available and has marginal impact on efficiency (think it was tested at about 1% hit or something?).

– new software all the time improving car capabilities and driving experience.

– the boot can _just_ about fit a mountain bike frame in a bike bag, I had to take the stem and rear mech off but it did fit (large Santa Cruz 5010 CC), so not convenient for a day ride but OK for a long drive to holiday.

– long drives are easy; take a break every three or four hours, drink coffee, charge, go the loo.

I had a Model S before, the boot was huge and could easily swallow a bit with wheels off in a bike bag. I did 42,000 miles on that car and just replaced 4 tyres, that was it. Tight.

Disclosure, I live about 20 miles from the Fremont, California factory so I could see owning one in the UK might be a slightly different proposition. That and the price is more £££ I guess.