Sorry i just came out of a meeting on thursday where i was told by upper management that, that was exactly how we were going to improve efficiency – and by the end of the day 25 folk were cut from payroll.

Mikewsmith for michaelgoves job- lets face it – the turtle on a poles probaby more qualified than gove is.

I think if you’re happy to go home and say “stuff ’em”, teaching can be a relatively easy job, with fairly short hours and decent holidays, pay and pensions.

I think if you think of the kids as people, many of whom are living in crappy situations and could in theory make a major difference to their chances in life by getting a few A-Cs, then it becomes something of a 24 hour a day job. At which point you’d be better applying that level of effort to commerce, because you’d be paid a hell of a lot more.

Yep, I spend my days working with people to improve things not sacking people.

I’d suggest taking a read of this, it’s quite a good read in terms of efficiency and improvement.

I had some very similar conversations with some nurses last year, they saw efficiency/improvement as more hours for less money & staff cuts. When you get down to the issues they start to see what they can do to improve it but you have to get out of the day to day to do that.

Having met most of my children’s teachers at open nights i have had to radically change my opinion.
The enthusiasm and dedication that comes from all of them is a revelation to me, i once thought they were all a bunch of whingeing left wing bumwholes who couldn’t hack it in the real world and chose instead to teach, well i was wrong and I’m glad i was wrong because if i was right my kids would be in the shyte !
But they are not in the shyte they are being educated and i for one am very grateful !

So cheers teech !!

I might well do that mike not that i want to go near management . Then leave it lying about so mrs tr can read it.

My wife was a teacher, she’s just quit and taken an admin job.

If you think teaching is so great, its well paid, you finish at 3pm and you get all those holidays then why don’t you retrain and become a teacher yourself?

As the saying goes “walk a mile in their shoes”

Trust me, the reality is very different.

I think its funny when people say this but don’t want to be a teacher themselves.

It speaks volumes

For the record I respect teachers as I do everyones profession…

If I had my time again then yes I may have become a teacher.

Just to add my 2p to Mike W Smith – I TOTALLY agree.

I think most jobs (including mine) come with a whole load of baggage around policy procedure, documentation – loads of stuff – and it is just NOT POSSIBLE to achieve all of it. If you’re under pressure, the sooner you accept this the better, because then you can start making choices.

Prioritise what you think will give the most benefit for the time you have to spend and just ignore everything else (lean).

Yes, this does open you up to risk (that somethign you ween’t covering goes wrong)…but I think the only thing here is to accept that fact and mitigate is as best you can. The key is giving you time to the highest priority tasks and learnign to let go and accept you cannot do everything.

I practice this in my working life every day – I could work 24×7 if I wanted to and still not cover everything.

I work 9×5 and accept stuff will go wrong occasionally.

Teachers bleating on about how hard they work…

…shut up ! You get 13 weeks off a year paid.

We all work hard its called life !

Starting salary isn’t bad…

For the record I respect teachers as I do everyones profession…

🙂

[video]http://youtu.be/h5yg0u1MkDI[/video]

Teaching kids is the last job in the world I woud do. I just could not do it, yet I have zero respect, and to be honest, generally nothing but contempt for (secondary school) teachers, due to their attitude and constant whining. I’ve never met a teacher that I’ve liked.

I tried to come up with a pithy response, then I decided to swear at you, but in the end all I can do is pity you. You sad, sad person.

Everyone moans about work, show me someone who has never done it and I’ll give you all my bikes.
However, at least teachers are trying to make life better for people.
We (and yes, I am a teacher) don’t do it for the money – it pays ok, but not a lot.
We don’t do it for the respect of the parents and students – some are fine, some are rude and see you as little more than babysitters.
We don’t even do it for the holidays – if you think back to your school days as a pupil, how tired were you at the end of each term…..well, double that and you’ll feel like a teacher does.
All the teachers I know, myself included, have a genuine love of learning and of helping young people to try and make something of themselves. We have to jump through daft hoops to get there, and believe me most teachers if given the chance would overhaul the current educational system. But we do what we can, within the framework we are given.

So, you have contempt for me, but I have pity for you…..and I bet I could whip your ass on a bike. Just saying.

With all the politics, stress and poor retention rates wearing an 18hr day badge of honour is counter productive.

To be fair to the guy who said this, if I did all the things the head teacher and all her policy drones (AHT ‘s. yes you Bullheart) I would be working 18 hrs a day.

Everyone’s an expert on education because everyone went to school.

I think if you’re happy to go home and say “stuff ’em”, teaching can be a relatively easy job, with fairly short hours and decent holidays, pay and pensions.

This is not really an option these days. It used to be the case that if you were happy doing the bare minimum of marking and teaching the same course year in year out you could be out the door at 3.30.

Speaking for Scottish teaching I think it’s impossible to do that at this point without being professionally negligent.

For the new teacher doing 18hr days what does your head of department say to that? What is their advice?

The key word in that sentence is new. Teachers very quickly realise that 18 hour days are not sustainable. They then either find ways to cut it down to a sustainable level or leave the profession.

I teach, its hard! But worth every second!

I think there are two sides to it really, we do put in big hours. But I hear a lot of people talk about how they could make more in an office working 9-5, having worked in an office before I was keenly aware that anyone who was high up did significantly more hours.

So lets look at some numbers: I work 8-6 Mon – Fri then do a 9hr day at the weekend = 59 hrs a week on average + extra when parents evenings / reports come up.

I work in a public school so 13 weeks holiday just doesn’t cut it – 17 it is 😆 but I work 9 hrs a day for 5 days in each of those holidays to prepare for the upcoming term so I only get 11 weeks off really…. Total work of 2335 hrs / yr.

Which working hours wise compares to someone with 28 days holiday doing 48.5 hrs a week.

Seems to me like I do a fair amount of work so I do get annoyed when someone tells me I shouldn’t have my holidays, even if I do more hours than you throughout the year? But I don’t think the hours are unreasonable; add into that that they are great fun and rewarding.

I should add, before I get flamed… I went to state school, trained in state school and am well aware that some of the staff in my previous schools had to do equivalent or higher hours to get by and do everything expected of them.

In my supposedly cutthroat super efficient private sector firm, 2000 billable hours would be considered a pretty impressive record over a year.

it’s not that they don’t work hard, it’s not that they have job changes forced on them that make working conditions worse and it’s not the fact they feel they are undervalued.
its just that most other people feel the same way about their jobs but teachers i have met seem to whinge more than others, most people just get on with it and are thankful they have a job.
maybe it’s to do with the narcissism that is being instilled in todays youth from all the over-praise and no harsh criticism, it’s starting to rub off on the adults that teach them.

I don’t think I can put it better than ajantom.

You suggest you might teach if you had your time again – it’s not too late, I have helped train people late in life that are making the switch and with many schemes you can earn that fantastic starting salary whilst you go. Alternatively you could apply to a private school without worrying about qualifications, I’d be interested to hear the response you get.
You might like, just for fun, to ask a nearby school if you can come in and observe for a day – every school I have worked in will be very happy to oblige if you ask nicely.

Blimey this is all a bit baitey!
The sooner we realise that teaching in the most important job in society the better.
However, it should be far easier to get rid of the useless ones much faster so they don’t damage the children in their care.
It should be possible to pay brilliant classroom teachers what they are worth without them having to take promotions that remove them from the classroom.
Parents (all of them) need to get involved with their kids school to understand how it works and, in some cases why little horror is failing and that they have a greater responsibility for their child’s education than their teachers.
I ride with a few teachers, my SiL and her partner are teachers, am heavily involved I my kids school and know, as they do, that there are some superb teachers and some colossal F***tards in teaching but they are virtually impossible to shift.

The problem is not just getting rid of the shit ones its also finding some good ones to replace them with.

Ah, it’s a bit of a viscous circle, who would want to go into a job where people like the OP continually spout ill informed rubbish about you. Change has to start somewhere. School performance measures need to be looked at too, more about educating children than hitting grade targets.

After looking after eight 8/9 year old boys yesterday for just under two hours at my sons swimming party I can imagine its a hugely rewarding job when they fall in line but must drive you nuts when they don’t!

Fwiw my sons teacher is shit, and we are currently thinking about seeing the head about her as she has more days off than anyone I’ve ever come across!

All this shite about working 18hr days!

If you ever really have worked 18hr days you would realise it’s almost impossible to sustain for any length of time. If teacher needs to work 18hr a day then they must be doing something wrong.

The teaching profession must of changed since the 70’s and 80’s, the majority of teachers I knew were pretty lazy, disinterested, chain smoking arseholes. With a few psychopaths thrown in for good measure. The good ones were very much in the minority.

I tend to think sometimes that because my mum was a teacher all her life (most of that in a Christian Brothers primary school, far removed from today’s teaching methods and curriculums, etc) that I can talk about teaching from some kind of position of greater knowledge. Oh, and my sister’s one too.

I’d be thinking bollocks though.

Darcey
Imagine laying floors for 18 hrs a day, you’d be richer than you are now 😉

My sister inlaw is a teacher, never heard her bleat, to be honest never heard her talk about work.
Then again she is an interesting, informative and entertaining person to be around.

An 18hr working day would mean about 4 – 5 hrs sleep every night.

18hr work
At least 30 mins a day commuting.
Shower etc 30 mins.
Eating 30 mins.
Other stuff 30 mins.
Sleep 4 hrs.

Not realistic is it?

ywho would want to go into a job where people like the OP continually spout ill informed rubbish about you.

Cops…lawyers…car dealers…soldiers…ambos…firefighters…teachers…social workers…doctors…LBS owners…

The teaching profession must of changed since the 70’s and 80’s, the majority of teachers I knew were pretty lazy, disinterested, chain smoking arseholes. With a few psychopaths thrown in for good measure. The good ones were very much in the minority.

that explains a lot

The teaching profession must of changed since the 70’s and 80’s.

Yes it has. It has changed beyond all recognition.

that explains a lot

Does it?

I take it your the typical arrogant bell end of a teacher then? Fail to recognise any talent that is slightly different from your limited imagination?

I basically left school at 16 with nothing, I am now professionally qualified to equivalent of degree level and have numerous other qualifications to support my primary profession.

I work in a very specialist area of my industry, for one of the World leaders in that sector and probably earn twice what a head teacher does and here’s the rub, I actually get more time off!

I have very little respect for the teaching profession.

Partner is a teacher and has experience of a very highly qualified private sector role. She says teaching is more stressful by far, little time to yourself and ‘presenting’ pretty much all day every day not to mention extra hours each week after school. Holidays are nice though once all prep work is done but in reality little more probably than most 9-5 jobs where you can leave work at work.

I subscribe to the theory of ‘would I be prepared to do it’? Probably not hence I’m less inclined to criticise. Spending all day in a nice school where the standards are high, majority want to learn and parents are supportive is very different to the other end of the scale.

I suspect Mr Gove is ‘well intentioned’ and seeking some changes that need to be made but cutting pay whilst seeking better quality teachers isn’t going to be a successful strategy long term. Be more selective and reward better. Simples.

I have very little respect for the teaching profession.

You do sound awesome to be fair. I can see why you’d feel that way about mere teachers.

I take it your the typical arrogant bell end of a teacher then? Fail to recognise any talent that is slightly different from your limited imagination?

oh my you are such an internet hard man it makes me swoon, and rich too, my god you must be a wonderful person

my god you must be a wonderful person

I am mate!

It’s changed dramatically in the last 5 years and is still changing at an alarming rate.

I’m not going to be drawn into this discussion fully as some of the posts are misinformed and just inflammatory…

However, Mike… what you don’t realise is that even with applying every lean method there is, there still isn’t enough time in the day to do what is expected of you as a teacher.

I worked 70 hours last week (smart hours too), still behind where I wanted to be and have got up this morning to start planning for next week.

BUT… I will accept we get exceptionally good holidays, we do work in them but we do get a decent amount of time away (although you can’t afford to go anywhere as all the prices are hiked up).

An easy way of looking at it is that 40 x 50 is the same as 50 x 40, so a teacher who works on average 50 hours a week with the holidays probably puts in a similar amount of hours across a year to people who work 40 hour weeks and only have a few weeks off. Its just a lot more intense when you are in work. But good teachers put more than 50 hours a week into the job so difficult to compare. It is a lifestyle rather than just a profession. Those 13 “weeks off” are needed to balance the long hours in term times, to catch up on work that there just wasn’t time to do and to catch up on lost sleep that accumulates.

I spent 5 years as a design engineer and a bit of time in engineering management before leaving for teaching… The work load and stress levels are incomparable. But that’s why I’m still doing it, it’s intense and challenging and I never get bored now, my career before was dull and slow paced and that’s why despite it being very difficult I love my job now. you won;t hear me moaning, but you also will get a reaction hence the long post… unless you’ve done it you don’t understand how draining it is, which is why you do get a lot of teachers “bleating on”, they wouldn’t anywhere near as much though if Michael Gove stopped attacking working conditions and pay/pensions etc.

Paul

(Head of maths in a challenging secondary school)

P.S. Looks like I did get drawn in after all. Troll 1 : Teacher 0 🙁

winston_dog – genuinely interested, would you say you’matured’ i.e. gain focus, responsibility, desire etc after school rather than whilst you were there?

What a donkey

Winston – who taught you to gain all the qualifications you have?

Wasn’t a teacher was it?