far more than a stupid drug

Easy with the disparaging comments mate.

A less than mature comment there SFB!

There is a hypothesis that people brain chemistry levels follows a normal distribution, so you have those above the norm, ie more content, and those below the norm, ie more susceptible to depression / anxiety.

On top of this baseline level, environmental / lifestyle factors will play a part eg exercise good / unemployment or divorce bad.

If you sit in the middle or just below the Serotonin norm, then therapy will probably help keep you above water, but if you have been born -3 sigma in terms of Serotonin levels, no amount of CBT is going to push you to +1 sigma, it will probably make very little difference and you’ll struggle with depression indefinitely.

If someone offers you a pill which move you back up the scale, what’s so wrong with that?

After all you don’t tell diabetics to MTFU and stop taking insulin?

Easy with the disparaging comments mate.

unless you identify with the drug this is nothing about you!

and a drug cannot think!

simonfbarnes – Member

“As for myself, I have decided I’d rather be on ADs indefinitely as I’m a much nicer person on them than off them”

well I would say you are as you want! I’m able to modify my own mood and attitude far more than a stupid drug, with no side effects.

simon – yes some simple CBT worked for you. It doesn’t for all people. Drugs are a useful part of the spectrum of treatments for depression. They have a place along with other types of taking therapies and other lifestyle changes.

There are no simplistic answers here or there wouldn’t be an epidemic.

A less than mature comment there SFB!

what ? Drugs did me a big disservice so I’m rightly contemptuous of them! Your experience may differ, but I cannot comment on that.

FWIW, I suffered intermittently while at university, and have probably done so at intervals since then.
Based on my limited experience, I’d say awareness is the first step. If you know that you’re having a problem, or a particularly difficult spell, then you’re in a much better place already, in that you know there ARE steps you can take, if you can get yourself through it.

Second point for me was finding what helps to pull you out of it. That part’s more difficult – I’m guessing it’s totally different for every person – but it’s a case of working out what triggers more positive feelings for you. Riding your bike is probably one of them, but obviously has a high barrier to entry (ie it’s a bit of a pain to do when you’re really not feeling it). Drinking may seem like the best option, but can too easily go horribly wrong.
Counselling could be a solution too, particularly if it helps you through both the cause and the best answers. Good luck with it – I don’t think there’s one right answer that works across the board, but like I said, realising there’s a problem is a huge first step.

something to feel positive about – a thread on stw with people generally being supportive of each other!

A few have gone through some bad **** and I commend you for keeping going.

I suspect most of society is border line depressed but self medicates with booze, a strategy I would strongly suggest avoiding.

My experience of depression is that I was never sure if I was depressed or not. I wrecked my sleeping patterns, was bulimic, overdosed, emotionally hurt people, and was sometimes violent, but I was never sure if I was depressed or if I was somehow maybe in control and I could just stop if I really wanted to.

Whenever I went to talk to health specialists, I would appear very much in control and it just became a merry-go-round for a few years with me being very upset and not getting any help about it. I tried a mixture of drugs, NHS CBT, and private counselling.

Then I got kicked out of Uni and was told that I wasn’t allowed back until I could prove I was healthy (no pressure there then!)

One particular counsellor properly broke me in one of her sessions and that was what finally convinced me that the situation might be more serious than I had first thought – and I eventually managed to get one-to-one excellent counselling that lasted for 18 months or so.

At the moment I feel okay and cope with life. I have no particular strategy apart from trying not to be too hard on myself and keeping active (mentally more than physically), but I couldn’t say anything much helped when I was depressed. And certainly activities like biking just annoyed me because I already hated myself and consequently everything I had once enjoyed. It helps that my environment has changed and I have friends who have dealt with their own depression, but again, didn’t do much for me until after I had ‘recovered’.

I realise that what I’ve written sounds downbeat and pretty harsh, but that’s how I feel when I recall such memories. Having not experienced anyone else’s depression I am guessing that everyone has their own strategies and everyone will have their own story. I wish the best to anyone suffering from it, and their loved ones as well.

[Quote]BruceWee-member In my case I found that fresh air, mountain biking, watching TV, putting up shelves, getting wasted, etc. all worked in the short term (when I was actually doing whatever I was doing) but as soon as I was finished the depression was back straight away but much worse.[/quote]

simonfbarnes – Member well, I would add drugs to that list of temporary fixes, but perhaps it depends on the personality. I needed something I could DO to fix myself, others might prefer a more passive regimen.

Glad you found something that works for you and let’s you feel superior to others.

If you read my original post you would have noticed that I spent 10 years trying to do things and never formed any permanent attachments just so that I was always had the option of moving to a different country (which I did 4 times in) or changing careers (which I did 6 times).

Also, anti-depressants aren’t your only option. In some cases ADs are thought to make depression worse. I’m currently on lamotrigin and it’s been incredible. For the first time in ten years I’m genuinely happy and starting to put down roots.

The best way I can describe my experience was that I would suddenly find myself in a different reality. In one I was a very successful professional and a fit, good looking guy who was very sociable and pleasant to be around. In the other you are a liability to everyone round about you and you don’t really deserve to live. This could change from day to day which became a trial in itself when the cycles became faster and I wasn’t even sure whether I was in a depression, manic or normal phase.

If I was to give anyone advice, it would be to try to find a way to cope yourself but the first time you find yourself having even the faintest thought of ending it all (even if that’s just a ‘why did I have to be born’) then start seeking help straight away.

Drugs did me a big disservice so I’m rightly contemptuous of them

That’s not right at all. I don’t like olives, but I don’t hold them in contempt. A lot of people love them.

Just because something does not work for you does not make it contemptible.

Just because something does not work for you does not make it contemptible.

except that it doesn’t matter if I diss inanimate things. They don’t care.

I’ve been thinking about this, and the reason for my strong reaction is that my recovery was based on the development of staunch self reliance. Depression of boring and pointless, so there’s no point inflicting the details on anyone else, and learning the simple measures to overcome the distorted thinking involved is a personal effort that no one else can do for you. I wasted years using the drugs which merely postponed recovery 🙁

Although I can believe that there are a few people with serious hormonal imbalances leading to depression, I encounter distorted, negative thinking on a daily basis, and find it frustrating that a kind of victim culture allows people to persist in helplessness unnecessarily!

except that it doesn’t matter if I diss inanimate things. They don’t care.

No but it’s not hard to see that disparaging something that someone else considers important is potentially insulting to that person…

and find it frustrating that a kind of victim culture allows people to persist in helplessness unnecessarily

That’s one side of it. There is another side though, as detailed above.

This is a sensitive area, so be careful with your size 13s.

SFB – do yourself and others a favour and leave it alone

Your understanding of depression is far from the truth and your dismissal of drugs is simply wrong and very damaging. Please drop it.

RE read my posts above. Depression is complex and multi factorial and no one answer suits all.

No but it’s not hard to see that disparaging something that someone else considers important is potentially insulting to that person

distorted thinking. CBT teaches you such interpretations are pointless 🙂

This is a sensitive area, so be careful with your size 13s.

exactly wrong. The “sensitivity” is a fundamental part of the problem. If you feel guilty for relying on a drug you should give yourself a break. The stuff I say is about me and doesn’t reflect on anyone else. That’s how people are.

what ? Drugs did me a big disservice so I’m rightly contemptuous of them! Your experience may differ, but I cannot comment on that.

but just because they didn’t work for you doesn’t mean they don’t for everyone. For a lot of people the drugs are exactly what they need to ge them in the right state of mind for the cbt or other counselling to work effectively – that’s exactly what they did for me. Without the drugs first I just wouldn’t have been able to get my head around the CBT at all.

SFB – you are being very disparaging about others, you are being very dismissive of other approaches. You are giving bad and wrong advice based on a totally false premise and a huge lack of understanding

Not all depression is what you had, CBT does not work for all.

Prozac, with other things, worked for me.

It was also excellent at reducing the anxiety I was suffering from and was slowly eating into my self-belief, which was not a pleasant thing to go through.

However, as shown in this thread mental illnesses are deeply personal things and as per other things in life what may work for one person will not work for other.

When my GP first prescribed Prozac for me I googled it and read some scary things and was nervous about taking it, but it really did work.

I know what sensitive subject this is and though not a sufferer I have been very close to several people who are or have been, including my future wife. This was an interview I found whilst researching the effects of SSRI drugs and though it may be of interest to this thread.

Bad Medicine.

I think I understand SFBs approach… is it about turning down your ability to be offended or outraged or uncomfortable when faced with situations/people that might make you feel offended/outraged/uncomfortable?

A bit of turning down your empathy volume switch?

I can see how that would help with regard to inter-personal relationships, and by extension, with regard to your relationship with yourself.

distorted thinking. CBT teaches you such interpretations are pointless

Er, it’s not distorted thinking, it’s how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.

People’s deep emotions are a sensitive area, that’s a fact I’m afraid. You don’t understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel.

The stuff I say is about me and doesn’t reflect on anyone else

Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!

I think I understand SFBs approach… is it about turning down your ability to be offended or outraged or uncomfortable when faced with situations/people that might make you feel offended/outraged/uncomfortable?

exactly. So long as you remain “sensitive” you allow yourself to be hurt by things which need not. If someone hits you, that hurts. If someone slags you off, it’s just their opinion. They’re entitled to it, but you don’t have to accept it. Likewise, people think so differently, it’s impossible to predict how they’ll respond to whatever you do or say, so don’t bother. By all means apologise if they claim to have been upset, but realise that this emotional hurt is also a prime tool of manipulation: “Don’t do X or you’ll hurt me” is essentially a power play. Don’t buy into that crap.

This doesn’t mean abandoning empathy or compassion, just not going overboard with trying to conform to the expectations of others which don’t fit your own mindset and preferences.

Sorry I’m late (no change there, then). Thanks to most for helpful input, and to one contributor in particular for recent advice, which fitted exactly. Personally I’d rather get by without medication, since it’s outside things giving me trouble, but it means that I’m dependent on friends and family. They’ve all been understanding and supportive. My GP, though, wanted to start me immediately on medication. Personally I felt I needed to know more about the problem first.

I’m in Wessex if anyone wants a therapeutic pootle, with cake.

A very close friend of mine did something very bad last week and is now on strong medication and under constant watch. The surprising thing about this is it came from nowhere, without warning and this person is always upbeat, happy and the life and soul. There is nothing going on like money trouble or family issues and this person looks to have absolutly no reason for doing what they did.

I am completely baffled and just can’t get my head around it. I can only assume that something in this persons chemistry went haywire and am grateful that medication exsists to help.

Er, it’s not distorted thinking, it’s how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.

yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it’s not your responsibility.

People’s deep emotions are a sensitive area, that’s a fact I’m afraid. You don’t understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel.

emotions are meaningless, they are what fish use instead of thinking. We can think and we choose our emotions. Choosing happy ones is better.

Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!

I only take responsibility for my own emotional wellbeing. It’s a personal journey for all of us. I’m just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.

but you need to learn how others feel.

you can never know this, as you only have what they tell you, and they may not be truthful in order to get you to do what they want instead, or they may allow themselves to hurt in order to get attention and support. Essentially, it doesn’t matter what people feel, it only matters what they do.

This doesn’t mean abandoning empathy or compassion, just not going overboard with trying to conform to the expectations of others which don’t fit your own mindset and preferences.

I get it….

It’s what I do at work; I have developed an ability to deal with the most upsetting, difficult situations, fraught with emotion, sadness and so on in a ‘professional’ way. It’s about being able to distance yourself from stuff so you can still function at a high level.

Interesting…

It’s not a lack of empathy, it’s not about ‘not caring’, it’s about the preservation of self.

yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it’s not your responsibility.

It’s normal behaviour. You have a responsibility to be nice to others in a social situation. You can’t just act badly and then tell them it’s their fault for being offended.

emotions are meaningless

In techno geek land maybe, but not out here. I don’t think I want to live in your ideal emotionless world!

I’m just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.

And being an arse at the same time. Great.

It’s not a lack of empathy, it’s not about ‘not caring’, it’s about the preservation of self.

yes, good. We’re all aware to some extent of how others think and react, and it’s important not to fall into the trap of going along with that to the point where you do things you don’t want to conform with their expectations. Do things for your own reasons, not other people’s. That way you’ll be happier and immune to manipulation

Simon please

simonfbarnes – Member

“Er, it’s not distorted thinking, it’s how people actually behave. Unfortunate, but there it is.”

yes, if you like, but they are doing it to themselves, and it’s not your responsibility.

Totally wrong attitude. Judgemental and blaming.

“People’s deep emotions are a sensitive area, that’s a fact I’m afraid. You don’t understand that, ok, but you need to learn how others feel”.

emotions are meaningless, they are what fish use instead of thinking. We can think and we choose our emotions. Choosing happy ones is better.

Emotions are not meaningless. They are a part of who we are You clearly have just learnt to shut down yours. Its not healthy.

Then you really really need to learn how to communicate properly!

I only take responsibility for my own emotional wellbeing. It’s a personal journey for all of us. I’m just pointing out there are different ways of tackling depression.

Actually you have said simple CBT is the only way and if you use drugs you are wrong.

“but you need to learn how others feel”.

you can never know this, as you only have what they tell you, and they may not be truthful in order to get you to do what they want instead, or they may allow themselves to hurt in order to get attention and support. Essentially, it doesn’t matter what people feel, it only matters what they do.

Thats a very cruel attitude and will make it very difficult for you to form emotional bonds and meaningful relationships

Simon – you have your experiences. However they are not the only answer and emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach.

Do things for your own reasons, not other people’s. That way you’ll be happier and immune to manipulation

Clearly. But that doesn’t then extend to mouthing off without any care to how others may think.

There’s a middle ground between being a doormat and being a self centred c*ck.

I don’t think I want to live in your ideal emotionless world!

I didn’t say that. Emotions are fun! Just don’t impute meaning to them. You choose how you feel, so choose carefully.

And being an arse at the same time. Great.

but that’s your opinion. I don’t mind if you think that because it makes no difference to me. I’m being forceful because I think it’s important to avoid passivity to depression.

A very close friend of mine did something very bad last week and is now on strong medication and under constant watch. The surprising thing about this is it came from nowhere, without warning and this person is always upbeat, happy and the life and soul. There is nothing going on like money trouble or family issues and this person looks to have absolutly no reason for doing what they did.

I am completely baffled and just can’t get my head around it. I can only assume that something in this persons chemistry went haywire and am grateful that medication exisits to help.

I can actually understand this. It’s very much like the situation I was in but luckily for me my mask started to slip as I was getting really desperate and some close friends of mine were able to drag me into the doctor’s office. I’m not very good at hiding my emotions but I was able to mask the depression by being unusually cranky and aggressive. I think it confused people because I was normally very easy to get along with but I don’t think it ever came across as depression. It could be your friend being upbeat all the time was his way of dealing with it. The thing to remember is that he’s still exactly the same person you’ve always liked, he just has an illness that he’s been concealing from everyone probably to save them worrying.

Totally wrong attitude. Judgemental and blaming.

followed by…

emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach

Lets just keep it all positive eh?

. But that doesn’t then extend to mouthing off without any care to how others may think.

it’s impossible to know what others think. You might be able to understand their claims but they may not know all that clearly. Seeing what they do is the best indicator. If they choose to say they feel bad because of what you’ve said, you can take it under advisement.

Good call Torminalis

I am just frustrated by Barnes attitude here. I’ll butt out now .

Zulu – email me if you want a little non-judgemental discussion of what your options are and what you can expect from them.

However they are not the only answer and emotionally cripling yourself to cope with depressive illness is hardly a healthy appraoach.

ha ha, I was crippied by unbounded emotion before, that’s what depression is! Now I have them more or less under control (though as it happens I’m allowing myself to fall in love with a rather unsuitable subject), I feel healed, not crippled, and my relationships with other people work much better.

I’m not saying don’t have emotions, and that would be impossible anyway (unless heavily drugged), just don’t pretend they are in control.

it’s impossible to know what others think

Ah, we are getting somewhere 🙂

If they choose to say they feel bad because of what you’ve said, you can take it under advisement.

Emotions are not a choice for everyone mate. You may feel that they are for you, which may have helped you with your own problems, but it’s not like that for everyone.

I am just frustrated by Barnes attitude here.

TJ, think about that. What benefit do you derive by allowing yourself to feel frustrated? By all means disagree, but instead of running away wailing, come up with a plausible counter argument. You’ll feel better.

But Barnes, TJ is not you. Your mind does not work the same as everyone else’s. You have to understand that.

Emotions are not a choice for everyone mate.

this is an invitation to victimhood or worse “I can’t help it!” or the awful “You made me do it!”. I dont feel I can control my emotions (though once upon I time I thought the idea was ridiculous), I know it through observation.

SFB – your basic premises are wrong and you have no insight into this

It would take far more than a few forum posts to go into this and your certainty about depression and its causes, treatments and cures is not helpful at all.

My frustration comes from the fact you are giving very bad advice, you are stating as certainties absolute falsehoods and you attitudes are damaging. As yo have no insight there is no way of debating with you.

I wish you would leave the thread before you do any more harm.