Viewing 40 posts - 161 through 200 (of 287 total)
  • Talk to me about Keto
  • tjagain
    Full Member

    Martin – you caught me out being lazy! 😉 I was merely skimming abstracts and conclusions.

    ON the yo yo weight – again I have seen research stating that this is an issue with keto diets ( as it is will all fad diets) ( But I am not going to waste time looking it up)

    The only thing that works long term is going to a healthy well balanced diet that you can sustain for your lifetime.

    chevychase
    Full Member

    @tjagain, if you’re, quite rightly, going to espouse the following of “real peer-reviewed evidence” you need to apply an attention to detail.

    That includes the fact that the BMJ article you linked to in an effort to disparage keto wasn’t anything to do with a ketogenic diet.


    @nickc
    – like I said, keto ain’t for you. Obvs 🙂

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    The only thing that works long term is going to a healthy well balanced diet that you can sustain for your lifetime.

    Most people can’t sustain a healthy well balanced diet of the kind you’re thinking of for a lifetime. There’s nothing wrong with experimenting to see what you can sustain.

    I posted links to ‘proper’ research earlier that disputes your claim that a keto diet is definitely bad for you. Any comment?

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    nickc
    Full Member

    keto ain’t for you. Obvs

    God no, I don’t have anything like enough disapline. 😁 .

    Vinte
    Free Member

    If you feel the need to accuse others of having an eating disorder to feel better about your own lifestyle I’d suggest you’re the one with the problem.

    Not really, routinely living off just meat, eggs and milk because you read it somewhere and are desperate to lose weight, or run faster, or whatever doesn’t sound very healthily to me. Is fibre a bad thing now?

    I’m going to post a link from a very unscientific source about food and eating. It makes sense to me.

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/quick-guide-intuitive-eating

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Bruce – I must have missed that – sorry.

    Reading around the research its seems to me clear that evidence all round is poor, conclusions are contradictory, you can cherry pick to get whatever you want, there are real risks with keto and no decent evidence of long term positive effect

    Really – I am bored with this now. I’ll leave the thread

    chevychase
    Full Member

    @vinte – that’s people not following a proper keto diet, which I can assure you has meat, dairy, fish, fruits, nuts, legumes and lots, and *lots* of vegetables.

    If done right, ofc.

    If not, just meat eggs and no veg ever? That’s just unhealthy eating.

    Important point on this whole topic: There have been a number of posts saying the only way to eat healthily is a sustainable mixed varied diet. I don’t completely disagree (dependent on what is healthy). But 70%+ of the UK population is either overweight or obese. Fact.

    That isn’t because we are a nation of lazy fatties – it’s because our environment is obeseogenic. As human animals we’re not evolved to have the amount of focus required to sustain a healthy diet and exercise level in our current world.

    To dismiss efforts, such as healthy ketogenic lifestyle (and strong evidence that this is a thing is rapidly emerging in quantity), as a solution that can help us achieve a healthy weight and nutrition, as a fad is misplaced judgement at best (but probably head-in-the-sand judgementalism).

    To counter the “but but but….’s” that come from saying this I’d like to point out that 70%+ figure again. “Sustainable balanced diet” advice is NOT WORKING for the majority of the human population.

    Keto is looking like a healthy, relatively easy to maintain solution in a mix of solutions to our obeseogenic environment problem.

    (My personal solution, ultimately, is moving to Wales and growing and rearing all my own food, whilst partaking in world class MTBing, and all of the other wonderful sporting activities that will be available to me!)

    #smug 🙂

    johnx2
    Free Member

    ^^^
    would drive me to chocolate, not that it’s ever a long drive, but hey…

    From the in this context ironically named Mayo clinic (google them if you don’t know – about as respectable as you can get mainstream evidence-based mainstream medical opinion.

    Ketogenic diet

    How it works: Bring on the bacon. This high-fat, very low carbohydrate diet typically means eating fewer than 50 grams of carbs a day — less than four slices of bread’s worth.

    What it promises: Getting most of your calories from fat forces your body to use different energy pathways. Instead of carbs for energy, the body burns fat, entering a state called ketosis.

    The upsides: While the precise mechanisms are unclear, ketosis is thought to have brain-protecting benefits: As many as half of young people with epilepsy had fewer seizures after following the diet. And some early research suggests it may have benefits for blood sugar control among people with diabetes. An upcoming study will look at the ketogenic diet as a weight maintenance strategy.

    The downsides: While the research is exciting, there’s very little evidence to show that this type of eating is effective — or safe — over the long term for anything other than epilepsy. Plus, very low carbohydrate diets tend to have higher rates of side effects, including constipation, headaches, bad breath and more. Also, meeting the diet’s requirements means cutting out many healthy foods, making it difficult to meet your micronutrient needs.

    Mayo’s verdict: While the ketogenic diet may be recommended for some people with uncontrolled epilepsy, the high fat content — and especially the high level of unhealthy saturated fat — combined with limits on nutrient-rich fruits, veggies and grains is a concern for long-term heart health.

    No one’s going to argue the benefits of sugars and simple carbs. But they do taste nice.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Keto is looking like a healthy, relatively easy

    But as you’ve pointed out, sticking to any diet requires focus, and cutting out foods (especially stuff like potatoes and rice) is difficult and counter productive (because it’s not those things that are causing folk to be overweight) What’s required is to hold off the sweeties, cake and fizzy pop. Not pasta and fruit. Which keto requires one to do.

    If you know that, then keto becomes redundant, no? I’m willing to bet that you’d loose just as much weight by just watching your intake of the “good but bad” stuff

    But TBH whatever you find that works for you is probs the best diet, not what someone on a bike forum says, right?

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    cutting out foods (especially stuff like potatoes and rice) is difficult and counter productive (because it’s not those things that are causing folk to be overweight) What’s required is to hold off the sweeties, cake and fizzy pop. Not pasta and fruit. Which keto requires one to do.

    Why do you think pasta, potato and rice aren’t fattening? They are very high GI carbohydrate. They cause a similar insulin response to sweeties. Not quite as bad but pretty close.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Because it’s difficult to eat those things in the sorts of quantity that would cause a “normal” person to be overweight. Plus these foods have been in the national diet since the 17th C  and folk weren’t overweight in the sorts of numbers they are now. What’s changed is the avaibility of sweets, cake, alcohol and sugary drinks.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    Because it’s difficult to eat those things in the sorts of quantity that would cause a “normal” person to be overweight.

    It’s really not.

    What’s changed is the avaibility of sweets, cake, alcohol and sugary drinks.

    What’s changed is an increase in carbohydrate consumption overall.

    nickc
    Full Member

    It’s really not

    Sure, but we’re talking about sensible diets, right? You’d agree that you can eat those things but just not a bucket load of mashed spuds at each sitting, yes? Ids it’s far more productive to cut out the coke and cake and beer than it is to cut out rice or pasta.

    But this is splitting hairs, the best diet is the one that you stick to.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    the best diet is the one that you stick to.

    Whoop! We’re almost there. Lots of folk find a keto or keto-lite diet the easiest to stick to because it subdues the carb craving.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    it’s far more productive to cut out the coke and cake and beer than it is to cut out rice or pasta.

    That all depends and what quantity it is in.

    Also, it depends on the individual. Do you ride in a group? Is there 1 or 2 of your group who carry more weight than the others, despite eating a balanced diet and getting exercise? Is there 1 or 2 “racing snakes” who never seem to carry weight and eat what they like?

    A lot of it comes down to an individuals insulin response and resistant when they eat carbohydrate. Some people are less carb tolerant than others. It is also the explanation why it gets harder to lose weight as you get older. You become more insulin resistance as you get older.

    chevychase
    Full Member

    @nickc – you’re advocating a course of action that we’ve proof – large fat, wobbling obese proof – doesn’t work.

    People cannot stick to the “sensible eating” thing in our obeseogenic environment. As much as we may all want to, it’s not working – despite all of the most intensive messaging on the planet.

    It doesn’t work – we need to either change the environment (hell no! imagine the uproar if we banned products! – just look at the shit over the sugary drink tax. Try that with pretty much 7 out of 10 aisles in the supermarket – including stuff that looks healthy, but is basically well-disguised fantastic-tasting unhealthy crack-sugar-cocaine – like effing granola) – or we need to try something else.

    “Eating sensibly” doesnt work. The idea needs to die.

    but this:
    “But as you’ve pointed out, sticking to any diet requires focus”
    Sticking to Keto is easy, as I’ve been at pains to point out. Having a list of stuff you “can’t eat because = posion, not food” (like cakes) – is really easy to stick to IMO. Not at first – because sugar is potentially as addictive as cocaine – but as you become keto adapted then the “mwahhh, I want pudding” or “that looks tempting” just disappears – you become no longer arsed about it.

    Not really surprising I guess. At the turn of the 1900’s we apparently consumed about 2.5kg/year of added sugar in our diet. By the turn of the 2000’s we consumed about 120kg/year.

    That’s down to the fact that the food on our shelves isn’t that. It’s a manufactured drug – and the stuff that you think are reasonable treats (or even everyday staples – like cereals) aren’t actually food – it’s just stuff you can eat.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    That’s down to the fact that the food on our shelves isn’t that. It’s a manufactured drug – and the stuff that you think are reasonable treats (or even everyday staples – like cereals) aren’t actually food – it’s just stuff you can eat.

    ^This.

    One of the biggest cons ever puller is convincing the majority of people that eating cereal is a healthy option. It really isn’t. However, look at how much supermarket shelf space is given up to it. It’s a multi billion industry.

    Stop eating processed wheat for a while, then go back to it. See how your stomach reacts.

    stevious
    Full Member

    Hello.

    I have no horse in this race, but did hear a fairly informative podcast looking at the evidence either way:

    https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/76h5kv

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Reading around the research its seems to me clear that evidence all round is poor, conclusions are contradictory, you can cherry pick to get whatever you want,

    So far so good, TJ!

    And then, immediately…

    there are real risks with keto and no decent evidence of long term positive effect

    🙂

    Vinte
    Free Member

    By ‘cereal’ do you mean breakfast cereal, or cereal as in grass and grain. If you mean breakfast cereal I’m inclined to agree because often the good bits are taken out then loaded with sugar and salt, a probably shouldn’t be considered a daily staple.

    Stop eating processed wheat for a while, then go back to it. See how your stomach reacts.

    What happens? Unless you have an underlaying medical issue my guess would be nothing.

    chevychase
    Full Member

    In my case I had immediate and severe stomach pains as the processed food hit my stomach, like I’d swallowed 3 litres of diet coke and mentos at the same time 🙁

    nickc
    Full Member

    People cannot stick to the “sensible eating” thing

    If you think this is true, then what makes you think that folk will have better success on a Keto diet that excludes not just sweeties and cake and coke, but also fruit and cereals and potatoes?

    If keto works for you, that’s cool, I don’t think its for everyone, and I don’t think its the only route to lowering ones weight in a healthy and sustainable way

    I largely do agree with you about the sorts of processed stuff that passes for food that’s sold in supermarkets though, we could all do with having less of that in everyone’s diet.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    If you think this is true, then what makes you think that folk will have better success on a Keto diet that excludes not just sweeties and cake and coke, but also fruit and cereals and potatoes?

    I find it easy as most starchy, heavy carb is pretty bland.

    You can still eat fruit, I eat a lot of berries, throw some in Greek yogurt and it’s absolutely delicious.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    You can still eat fruit, I eat a lot of berries, throw some in Greek yogurt and it’s absolutely delicious.

    It is, but it’s not keto though.

    johnx2
    Free Member

    People cannot stick to the “sensible eating” thing

    it’s a bit of a low blow, but this is from someone who’s said they’ve two and a half stone to lose, (putting it on post-keto…)

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    but it’s not keto though.

    Why? As long as you keep your total carbs down to less than 50g per day you are fine.

    Raspberries and strawberries contain very little carb

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Having looked it up, I take your point – although I used to try to keep below 25g a day, which is probably why I didn’t even consider them.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    although I used to try to keep below 25g a day

    That would be very hard!

    cromolyolly
    Free Member

    I’m curious to know if any of the keto people are testing their blood for beta-hydroxybutyrate on a regular basis ((daily, even weekly)

    Also, are you getting tested for the level of calcium in your blood, given there seems to be some risk of it being drawn out of the bones – meaning osteoporosis and cardiac risks?

    Anyone been checked out to make sure that the weight loss isn’t muscle loss, because the body is really good at finding sources of protein and glucose when the diet doesnt provide enough?

    chevychase
    Full Member

    @nickc

    If you think this is true, then what makes you think that folk will have better success on a Keto diet that excludes not just sweeties and cake and coke, but also fruit and cereals and potatoes?

    I never said everyone – and for your answer, I’ve spelled out exactly why in a couple of posts now. Not trying to be nasty, but I’ve explained the how and why it’s much easier to follow keto as a lifestyle than a standard “diet” (and why, even though it’s amazingly easy for both me and especially my missus, I can’t follow it long-term. Though I wish I could – as many do). Not repeating it ad-infinitum. Please go back and re-read 🙂


    @martinhutch
    – on berries and yoghurt

    It is, but it’s not keto though.

    There are 2.3g of total carbs in 10 average raspberries. 1.2g of that is dietary fibre – not sugars – so 1.1g of carbs. About the same for blueberries by weight and I think strawberries are reasonably similar.

    Yoghurt – 3.6g carbs in 100g of yoghurt (not a big serving though).

    So, if you’re careful there’s not a problem with fitting them into an even ultra-low Keto diet.

    Personally, I replace the yoghurt with cream – same carbs per 100g but serving size is much smaller.

    It’s all about being sensible with serving sizes. That fatties generally aren’t – but keto people learn very *very* quickly, and stick to (easily, because they’re not hungry).

    chevychase
    Full Member

    @cromolyolly

    I’m curious to know if any of the keto people are testing their blood for beta-hydroxybutyrate on a regular basis ((daily, even weekly)

    Considering it’s one of the most common ketone bodies it’d be astonishing if, when in ketosis, I wasn’t full of it all the time. And yes, I check daily – but not blood testing.

    Also, are you getting tested for the level of calcium in your blood, given there seems to be some risk of it being drawn out of the bones – meaning osteoporosis and cardiac risks?

    My calcium levels were fine last time they were taken. My diet is great, and chock full of more nutrients than most. I’d happily put up my diet against most people’s if it wouldn’t be such a ballache to actually do – but all I can say is yep, my calcium levels are fine.

    Anyone been checked out to make sure that the weight loss isn’t muscle loss, because the body is really good at finding sources of protein and glucose when the diet doesnt provide enough?

    You’ve been reading a few blogs and going “oooh, that sounds bad” without thinking it through haven’t you? 🙂

    Point 1. Yes. It’s fat loss. I work out and cycle – so my body fat is the thing that’s going down. Doing keto without exercise would seem a bit effing stupid, wouldn’t you agree? I mean – if you’re prepared to go to “extremes” (I don’t see it as that at all, by the way – because my diet is so varied) – to look after your diet, then leaving exercise out the equation would be dumb, right?

    Pouint 2. The diet provides protein. Check. The body isn’t “good at finding sources of glucose**” – because it doesn’t need them – ketone bodies are a glucose replacement when the body doesn’t have available glucose. That’s kinda the whole point.

    Yes, you lose the top 15% or so of performance (as anerobic metabolism requires glucose that you don’t have) – but you’re carrying 30,000 calories of readily-available fat around your midriff so you can go all day and remain well-fed.

    🙂

    **on the finding glucose – keto isn’t “high protein” because if you do consume more protein than your body needs then your body breaks the excess down into glycogen. So too much protein is self defeating. – bring on the avocado products to the MAX 🙂

    Pierre
    Full Member

    Just to add my 2p, although I have to admit I’ve skipped pages 2 and 3… keto is definitely not for everybody, but it _can_ be a healthy diet that puts your body into a state where it preferentially fuels itself on its fat stores, which fluctuate much more slowly but you’ve got tons more of them.

    My experience of it came from having customers who adapt themselves for ultra-distance events like the Transcontinental Race and Trans-America, where you want to keep going as long as possible and stop as little as possible. Adapting your body to readily burn fat is superb for this kind of thing, because you’ve got days of fat supply and it’s often relatively easy to re-stock with oily, buttery, meaty foods and salads.

    It’s _not_ Atkins – those salads and greens are vital. For one thing, they keep your bowels moving – fibre is really important and some keto people use psyllium husk (Fybogel) to add fibre and help everything move through the system. Without it, and with a high-fat diet your colon is going to be a horrible place and that way lies cancer and, more immediately, awful smells.

    Its disadvantage is that it makes sprinting or any other anaerobic exercise much more tiring – anaerobic stuff requires quick-burn fuel like sugars and glycogen in the bloodstream, and keto hugely reduces the amount of that. So at first, just taking a flight of stairs a bit quickly will leave you feeling weak-legged for a minute or two.

    But the huge advantage to the ultra-distance bunch is that once you’ve adapted to it, you can literally ride all day without needing to stop if you have to. Although typically you’ll wake up, roll up the sleeping bag / bivvy and get on the road for a few hours, stop somewhere for a big cheesy omelette, refill the water bottle, roll on until dinner time, stop for a big salad and a steak, ride into the evening and find somewhere to bed down. You’ll be riding at a steady pace, but you don’t get tired and you just keep going.

    That sort of thing is not for everyone. And the adaptation phase takes a lot of planning and a _lot_ of discipline. Carbs are everywhere! Everyone snacks on carbs, drinks carbs, treats themselves with carbs and almost every breakfast option is full of carbs, so you have to prepare your own food. And, like others have said, it’s not a diet, where you can have days off, it’s a lifestyle because you’re trying to keep your body in that preferentially fat-burning state so if you have a sugary drink or a doughnut it jumps on that sugar and carbs and stops burning fat. And, once you’re adapted, if you do do that it feels really really odd. You get kind of sugar-rush jitters and your head stops being able to focus and once you’ve burned that sugar you feel sluggish and pants.

    I did it myself for a few months. I noticed the same loss of sprint ability, but found I could ride 200km audaxes only stopping to refill somewhere half-way to stretch and refill my water bottle. Steady-state stuff just got easier, my body fat percentage dropped and my muscle percentage increased (only using body composition scales, which I know aren’t very accurate but are at least fairly consistent), I got fitter and stronger and like others said I felt sharper and more focussed and slept well.

    Why did I stop? I went on holiday for a long weekend in Prague and there was a beer festival on, and it started me back on a “normal” diet. Plus we’ve got a 7-year-old son and it’s a bit weird making one lot of food for us and one for him. And, frankly, it’s a bit weird to most people, avoiding carbs. Especially if you find yourself wanting or needing convenience food – if you don’t have time to make your own lunch, most take-away options are very carb-heavy. I missed beer, but I also missed cake, bananas, toast, fresh pasta, jacket potatoes – that sort of thing.

    That said, I think I’d go back to it. It just takes dedication, and planning.

    cromolyolly
    Free Member

    Considering it’s one of the most common ketone bodies it’d be astonishing if, when in ketosis, I wasn’t full of it all the time. And yes, I check daily – but not blood testing.

    How do you check ithout blood testing? Urine sticks don’t measure it. They give a semi quantitative estimate of acetoacetate and acetone bad on the reaction to nitroprusside.
    It is THE most common ketone body except for it’s stereoisomer iirc. That’s why you do blood tests, the will tell you the ratio of ketones and levels – people vary but there are ranges which are consier normal and in ketosis etc.

    Although the problem with the keto diet is you are eating so much fat you are just as likely to be making the ketones out of that than body fat. The initial weight loss is largely water and glycogen. Stop the extreme diet (well any diet really) and those come right back. It’s line of the main reasons dieters yo-yo.

    The body isn’t “good at finding sources of glucose**” – because it doesn’t need them

    I think you need to spend less time on blogs and more on science.

    Doing keto without exercise would seem a bit effing stupid, wouldn’t you agree?

    Personally I think doing keto is pretty effing stupid, full stop. The science is a bit variable but basically, don’t bother. Unless you are epileptic . There was one study , strangly on mountain bikers that showed a benefit to keto bwut largely they are inconclusive, except for the repeated findings that carbs are good for athletes.
    Also if you are trying to hold lean muscle mass, anabolic hormones are a good, even necessary thing. Glucose is good for that.

    I couldn’t speak your diet, except to say if you are genuinely in ketosis long term, which in itself is doubtful, absent serum measurements, you are missing the known benefits of re micronutrients in the fruit you can’t eat and the known benefits of e.g. whole grains and fibre.

    But you do you.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Personally I think

    Well, sorry to debunk your personal opinions but:

    doing keto is pretty effing stupid, full stop. The science is a bit variable but basically, don’t bother. Unless you are epileptic . There was one study , strangly on mountain bikers that showed a benefit to keto bwut largely they are inconclusive, except for the repeated findings that carbs are good for athletes.
    Also if you are trying to hold lean muscle mass, anabolic hormones are a good, even necessary thing. Glucose is good for that.

    Hold on:

    a) Manageable weight loss – check

    b) Power up/muscle mass undisturbed – check

    c) Considered healthy via recent (as in a week ago) blood tests – check

    d) Poop a day – check

    I’m sorry but my own personal study is against your own personal findings.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Once again – the plural of anecdote is not evidence! Given that by your own admission ( from the things you eat) you are only “doing keto” sporadically then its utter nonsense

    Darn it – drawn back in again!

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    sporadically

    What, for 3 months, a weeks break, then three months with a calorific increase over a prior year within which I gained weight?  Again, you’ve been informed otherwise TJ.  Seriously man you need to stop believing your own hype and repeating yourself because…

    the plural of anecdote is not evidence

    …as you said yourself.

    cromolyolly
    Free Member

    a) Manageable weight loss – check

    Manageable? Does it stay off when you aren’t ‘doing keto’

    with a calorific increase over a prior year within which I gained weight?

    Hey who knew calories up weight up, calories restricted weight down.

    Don’t need keto for that.

    b) Power up/muscle mass undisturbed – check

    Any actual measurements showing your muscle mass is undisturbed? It goes down naturally with age. Goes up with resistance training. You must be the only person on the planet who has managed to not disturb their muscle mass.

    Literally hundreds of thousands of people get healthy blood test results every day. Don’t need keto for that either. Some science suggest a keto might make that less likely.

    Poop a day – check

    That’s it? Some diet doctors say you should be going at least 6 times a day.

    Simply put, if yo aren’t testing your blood regularly for bhb (see above) you have no evidence you are in ketosis. None of your anecdotal personal experience is in any way linked to doing keto.

    Pierre
    Full Member

    I think one of the main problems with analysis of keto is that it gets treated as a diet – put a bunch of people on a “keto diet” for a couple of weeks, then look at their blood chemistry, metabolism, etc., and compare with a control group.

    Also a lot of people lump it in, nutritionally, with Atkins which means they assume it’s high protein, high fat, low veg. And that’s a bad diet on almost any measure and will have a high link with atrocious gut health, constipation, lower GI tract cancers, etc.

    It’s been a long time since my Physiology degree and I’m not an expert but still know how to read the research papers. But done properly, and studied properly as a longitudinal study rather than results extrapolated from an experimental cohort of possibly-intermittent adopters, I can’t see any reasons why it should be harmful as a lifestyle if you eat well with lots of fresh veg and are aware of the micronutrients you might need to top up. I’d like to learn more about it.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    Also a lot of people lump it in, nutritionally, with Atkins which means they assume it’s high protein, high fat, low veg

    Where does Atkins say that you should not eat a lot of vegetables? Basically anything that grows above the ground is fair game.

    nickc
    Full Member

    I’d like to learn more about it.

    me too, but I got told to do one…

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