..in bike-discount.de, in hindsight that my alps trip this year 2015 might happen. For some reason XT is too shiny for my liking, mostly riding trail centres and big mountains in the summer 🙂 cheers

70kg rider by the way all in.

No point unless its to save cash, the Zee’s aren’t much heavier and they are so powerful (about 40 percent more power) you can go down a rotor size on the front and back (maybe even 2 rotor sizes on the back from a 203 to a 160 if you run a 203) – so less rotating weight. They also modulate better.

Get the Zee’s, being ‘over braked’ (no such thing) is great at the end of a long tiring downhill run.

Surely going down a rotor size is bad? Smaller surface area = overheating. Doesn’t it?

asbrooks – Member

Surely going down a rotor size is bad? Smaller surface area = overheating. Doesn’t it?

Yup, upping your power for big hills then giving it less chance to cool down isn’t exactly ideal

Can’t sorry. Best brakes i’ve ever had. Yes good price on bike-discount.

I would be getting the Zee brakes I think they are £140 so not crazy.

Yup, upping your power for big hills then giving it less chance to cool down isn’t exactly ideal

Except the newer Shimano rotors cool far more quickly than your standard rotor, if you manage to boil brakes using 180f/160r rotors in the UK in anywhere but Fort William you’re a total goon. The bigger surface area of the pads will help to deal with fade.

At the end of the day if you don’t go down a rotor size, you’ve hardly gained any weight anyway.

Still going to be dam hot at the end of a downhill run

Well, I’m assuming the OP isn’t mincing down a track like Fort William during the winter – as you shouldn’t be thinking about running SLX brakes for that.

As he said, trail centers and Alpine stuff during the summer. SLX are pretty shit for the latter and if you don’t want the extra weight just go down a rotor for the Autumn, Winter, Spring season. Buy an extra 203 rotor, shove that on the front and swap the 180 to the back.

This is all assuming he cares about weight and his bike can physically run a 160 rotor on the rear.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Except the newer Shimano rotors cool far more quickly than your standard rotor

You mean ice-techs? Have they sorted the melting issues these days?

As he said, trail centers and Alpine stuff during the summer. SLX are pretty shit for the latter

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with running 2-pots + a big disc for downhill, people have been doing it for a long, long time

You mean ice-techs? Have they sorted the melting issues these days?

That was an urban legend wasn’t it, that was never corroborated.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with running 2-pots + a big disc for downhill, people have been doing it for a long, long time

Yes there is, both big arse 2 pots and big disks **** up modulation.

What is the benefit running Zees over SLX or XT? Does it mean you can lock the wheels up quicker with Zees, or does it mean less brake fade?

The main problem for me is the brake fade on prolonged descents. I’m guessing a larger rotor and the same brakes will address it better than 4 piston brakes?

Better resistance to brake fade as the surface area of the pads is bigger, more force, better modulation and better resistance to boiling.

A bigger rotor on the rear reduces braking control in poor/low traction conditions – others agree with me.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/ask-pinkbike-dec-9.html

I found myself losing time when I moved to a set of V2’s (not much more powerful than a set of SLX brakes, around 10 percent more power) from Oro’s simply because the rear was way harder to modulate reliably, I dropped a rotor size down to 180 – still wasn’t really enough. It ended up making me a better rider anyway, but I’d have preferred more control on the rear.

I can’t tell you which our of the rotor or bigger caliper will improve fade resistance more though, just that the Zee will improve it whilst modulating better.

Yes there is, both big arse 2 pots and big disks **** up modulation.

Not sure what you mean now, I’m talking standard sized 2 pots (not bollocks like Hope V2s) as run by almost every downhiller for many years.

Don’t know it was myth or not but there were certainly photos of ruined rotors doing the rounds:

Gah, can’t copy the direct link for some reason http://s480.photobucket.com/user/ds2199/media/Shimano%20Ice%20Tech/DSC_0054.jpg.html

2 extra pistons means 2* more seals to go wrong, something to consider with shimano (warranty has saved me a few times now)

There are a few factors and different causes in brake fade.

Pads glazing and or boiling the fluid. A bigger rotor will help reduce the effect of both, more powerful brakes will lessen the impact of both. Brakes that have a better clearance will also help.

Organic pads glaze easier, but insulate the fluid from heat build up better, sintered do the opposite. Dot 5.1 has a higher boiling temperature when fresh than mineral oil (shimano use mineral), but dot fluid absorbs water and over time the performance becomes worse than mineral.

Then there are newer pads like superstar kevlar or brake authority ceramic which are meant to combine the best of organic and sintered.

Anyhow all that considered, I am running the current xtr and saint brakes on different bikes, I have had some minor problems with fade on the xtr, but the saints have been awesome even though I use them on a downhill bike. On the xc xtr bikes I run 200 front and 160 rear, and on the downhill 200 both ends. But I am a 120kg lardarse so my experiences may not relate to yours, but it does make me very aware of how my brakes perform.

I would go for the zees, and for alpine trips go for bigger rotors (if you really feel the need for smaller rotors for local riding) and quality pads.

I think on the whole I’d choose 2 pots over 4 pots just because they’ll need less maintenance and will be reliable for longer. If you go for the Zees then yes they’ll have more power when they’re working but you’ve got twice as many seals to leak and pistons to seize. To a maintenance shy lazy bar steward like me that’s a big attraction, along with the price difference I think I’d save the money.

Which then brings you onto the SLX brakes. Advantages over the M615 Deores that I can see are:

Reach adjust knob (which could be a disadvantage if it snaps off, and I’d only use it once anyway)
Ceramic pistons (over stainless in the Deores I’m assuming?)
Banjo hose fitting at the SLX caliper which could be handy if you need it.
Finned pads on the SLX which as already mentioned, probably aren’t necessary unless you’ve got an Alps trip planned.

There’s also having the better and more expensive logo on your bars which can’t be ignored by some people.

So I’d have a hard time spending the extra £25 for the SLXs unless someone could highlight what I might benefit from? Are the ceramic pistons likely to perform better or last longer for example?

Organic pads glaze easier, but insulate the fluid from heat build up better, sintered do the opposite. Dot 5.1 has a higher boiling temperature when fresh than mineral oil (shimano use mineral), but dot fluid absorbs water and over time the performance becomes worse than mineral.

Not all Dot fluid is of the same quality, Castrol SRF or Motul 600 will still have a higher boiling temperature when wet.

Those problems with the Icetech rotors have never been proven in the lab or anyone else for that matter, it happened once – one anecdotal report is the only incident I can find.

Also

Mineral Oil Boiling Temperatures

Ok, so now we’re getting down to the nitty gritty, this is where Mineral Oil differs greatly from DOT brake fluid.

Unlike DOT fluid, Mineral Oil is hydrophobic and does not absorb moisture from the environment. This means that there are no wet or dry boiling temperatures to worry about, the boiling point stays constant and never drops. That’s the good news.

The bad news is that any water that does enter the brake system, via seals or microscopic pores in the lines etc., will effectively reduce the boiling point of the whole brake system to that of water – just 100°C. This is because as the fluid repels any water ingress, it causes it to pool at low points within the brake system, usually the calliper, since water is heavier than brake fluid it will settle at the lowest point. This is worrying because the fluid in the calliper is more susceptible to high temperatures as it’s at the business end of the brake, where the friction is created.

You might think that since the boiling point of Mineral Oil never drops then the trade-off must be that it must start much lower than DOT fluid, after all you can’t have the best of both worlds can you? Well recent discoveries suggest that might not be the case. Let’s take a look at some of the figures we know of.

http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil/

Castrol SRF has a wet boiling temperature of 270 degrees. Which is partly why I still prefer Hopes to Shimano.

Went from slx to Zee, purely for the better modulation, but the extra power is nice. Zee weight a fair bit more than Deore, but you’d expect that.

Oh, and Deore can take finned pads by the way.

According to Bikeradar the Zee is lighter than the Deore? And the SLX brakes I’ve seen weighed are only a tad heavier than the Zees.

Nope. I’ve weighed all of them .

Currently using elixir 7 which “brake fade” in that long descent in CYB Enduro couple of months ago which scare the shit out of me, granted wasn’t bleed in more than 6mos and I am holding my brakes more than i need to…but still 👿 … Since xmas time I have all the reason to retire the avids for a better one… I might get the Zee after reading all the replies here, might come handy as I am planning to build proper “enduro 😛 ” bike late next year when I am persuaded with that infinity switch thingy.

I didn’t realize there were issues regarding piston seals on Shimano brakes, other half bike is on SLX brakes for a year now and still works ace.

Cheers all for the replies.

Nope. I’ve weighed all of them .

This corroborates what I’ve read on here and Pinkbike.

These weigh 310 to 330 grams depending on front or rear hose length, and I weighed a set of SLX on my old kitchen scales and there was nothing in it.
Read more at http://dirtmountainbike.com/products/product-reviews/shimano-zee-disc-brakes-wear-tear.html#wt8jkSoGKwRqZhtW.99

SHIMANO ZEE DISC BRAKES | WEAR AND TEAR

Yeah….that’s a significant weight difference alright. All of 17 grams between the front brakes!

Those problems with the Icetech rotors have never been proven in the lab or anyone else for that matter, it happened once – one anecdotal report is the only incident I can find.

You’ll find two reports just up there ^ where I linked to two different failures, and more here if you want a read:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/has-anyone-else-melted-their-ice-tech-rotors

Maybe just an early batch issue?

Well, I’m assuming the OP isn’t mincing down a track like Fort William during the winter – as you shouldn’t be thinking about running SLX brakes for that.

I raced fort william using slx’s, twice infact, spent 2 months in france over summer riding for 4 or 5 hours pretty much everyday and never had a problem wit the slx’s in terms of fade or lack of power. I’m about 70kg when kitted too. However i reckon i will upgrade to zees when i have bought a few other things first.

You’ll find two reports just up there ^ where I linked to two different failures, and more here if you want a read:

Well Velotech found no issues with them.

http://www.sicklines.com/2011/02/14/shimano-ice-technologies-xtr-benchmark-test/

I know of someone who melted a vented V2 disk in the Alps…..make of that what you will.

raced fort william using slx’s, twice infact, spent 2 months in france over summer riding for 4 or 5 hours pretty much everyday and never had a problem wit the slx’s in terms of fade or lack of power. I’m about 70kg when kitted too. However i reckon i will upgrade to zees when i have bought a few other things first.

Faster rider = less fade.

So basically the opposite of what you first said, Tom.

So basically the opposite of what you first said, Tom.

No, I think the lesson learned is that no rotor size is going to negate riding like an idiot by brake dragging all the time. Lay off the brakes and learn to use braking points as opposed to dragging.

I’ll say this again, unless price is an issue there is no point in the OP buying SLX brakes. If he’s happy to spend the money then he’s going to see plenty of advantages, for what….a 20 to 40g weight penalty…and a few more seals to maintain?

Well Velotech found no issues with them.

Not sure what your point is? Different tests will yield different results

Well, all the other brakes they tested failed before the Icetech rotors did.

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/nl/index/news_and_info/Velotech_Disc_Brake_Test.download.-Par30parsys-0002-downloadFile.html/Test%20Report%20XT%20M785%20IceTech%20160.pdf

http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/nl/index/news_and_info/Velotech_Disc_Brake_Test.download.-Par30parsys-0008-downloadFile.html/Test%20Report%20XT%20M785%20Steel%20160.pdf

Unfortunately velotech appear to have changed their website and non of their tests are up at the moment. They use to have more, eg Hope and Formula.

For what it’s worth I’ve just fitted Zees to my trails bike because running them on my downhill bike has made me realise how awesome they are. For downhill runs they result in great modulation and zero arm pump at on the way down.

They translate to the trail bike really well as they don’t weight that much more and the increased power more than makes up for any extra weight.

I can’t compare them to SLX in all honesty as I haven’t ridden with them but if you go for Zees you will not be disappointed.

I’ve just ditched my XT’s for a set of Zee brakes.

The XT’s were good but they were always a tad spongey and I never really used any of the features once I’d set them up. The most annoying thing though was that the Deore brakes on the hardtail feel better!

My Zee’s feel better at the lever than the XT’s ever did even after being returned to for professional TLC. I like the textured blades too.

If you only want ta pots, I genuinely think it is hard to justify anything over Deore especially now they will take an ice tech pad.

Yup, the only 2 pot Shimano that I’d see myself buying is either the Deore or the XTR race. The two brakes in between add nothing really.

Yup, the only 2 pot Shimano that I’d see myself buying is either the Deore or the XTR race. The two brakes in between add nothing really.

So the ceramic pistons in SLX and above make no difference then?

Not having a go just genuinely trying to find out what the best brake for my money is, not bothered about all the pointless features but can’t find any info as to whether ceramic pistons are worth the extra or what they even do, other than handle and dissipate heat better. I’m assuming they’ll transfer less heat to the fluid so will fade less but I doubt I’d get the Deores to fade unless I go to fort bill either.

The point of the ceramic pistons is to provide a less conductive interface between fluid and pad backing. They seem to work fine elsewhere so no reason they shouldn’t in this application. As with all brake cooling, you’ve gotta be working them hard enough that failure due to temperature is problem before you’ll see a benefit. Personally I’m all for a bit of over engineering in this department.

Back OT, I seem to recall Bird were doing them about a tenner cheaper last week. The bike discount price has been there over a month now. I very nearly bought Zees myself for my trail bike a month ago but plumped for XT as CRC had them for 100. I’m still nursing a sneak regret on this, but my logic was that 80 quid SLX was where I’d started looking, and Zee was nearly double that, so not really ‘for just another fiver…’ anymore. People I know with Zees have nothing but good stuff to say about them. Apparently they modulate better than the two pot Shimano due to the hydraulic gain…

ZEEs are £50 more than SLX. Get the SLX and some ice tec rotors for the same price as the ZEE.

So I have just this week made the swap from SLX to zee. I like my slx brakes but they felt a bit binary to me, either all on or off. Certainly coming from my old hope tech2 m4’s. Which I loved great feel and modulation. After taking the sees out for a spin yesterday they feel great, nice modulation. Loads of power if you give them a tug but so much more sensitive than the slx. At the end of the day I don’t think shimano make a bad brake nowadays, but for me I think the zee is worth the extra money.

I felt the Zee was a bit on or off to be honest. Very easy to lock up the rear. That was coming from Formula The One and in the Alps. Masses of power but they didn’t really suit me. Changed back to Formula once I got home but have kept them as my back up brake set as they still do an amazing job for the price.

For anyone who’s interested, I just weighed my new Zee front brake. With finned pads fitted it was 323 grams.

I cracked an Icetech rotor, presumably it was heat related. Not serious, but it was carving a line in one pad surface. I noticed it after an alpine holiday.

I’ve also seen another Icetech melt in the last year. I suspect that was partly caused by some pretty heavy wear.

It’s been enough to put me off them and I’ll only use standard rotors now. I’ve never had a problem with boiling brakes, so didn’t seem like a big deal to switch back (on the rear at least).

I use the finned pads in the Alps which seem sufficient.