Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time — New Rules

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  • Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time — New Rules
  • bigyinn
    Member

    So basically holidays & money are more important than education. Erm ok…… 🙄

    russ295
    Member

    It’s all ways puzzled me how it’s ok for the school to take a group of kids skiing during term time with the teachers travel costs funded by the parents, but it’s not ok for a child to go with there family?
    I’ve always took my daughter for week out in jan/feb and the head was fine about it, but she is now in high school and I try and go just after new year. Fly on the 1st at 7am next year!
    I sort of agree if its to sit in a tacky bar in benidorm for a fortnight tho!

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Hmm indeed. First world issue of OP selfish enough to compromise kids education to get their perspective of a decent holiday.

    Precisely. It seems to be more about where the parents want to go than what would suit the kids. Now, I admit I would rather go skiing in the Alps than camping in Cornwall, but that’s one of the compromises you sign up for when you decide to start a family.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    It’s all ways puzzled me how it’s ok for the school to take a group of kids skiing during term time with the teachers travel costs funded by the parents, but it’s not ok for a child to go with there family?

    To be honest it isn’t and I’m surprised there are many schools doing this any more – it’s been frowned upon for about 20 years +. Field trips, especially whole year ones, are fine in term time but anything that even vaguely smells of school organised holiday for select groups, no.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    As a parent my life has changed massively – massively for the better. I’m not looking for “life changing” holidays – in fact it’s not about ‘my’ holiday at all. By taking a holiday in term time we can give our children experiences they wouldn’t have otherwise during their formative years.

    Schools and education are not synonymous. The problem is that some teachers* and many parents think it is. Education is also not about targets. Setting highly arbitrary quantative targets is an incredibly poor way to try and assess performance. When you focus teachers on demonstrating their effectiveness against these targets you end up with a very narrow definition of ‘good’ and a system which begins to have a distorted view of what matters. We now have a large proportion of teaching professionals who have only known this system and have only achieved professional ‘success’ through it.

    I am not on my own thinking this causes problems, many of the people we socialise with* see this is an issue. It is this restrictive focus which caused some of the problems in a different type of institution – Stafford hospital. It becomes a problem wherever it is applied. In the NHS for example there are shorter waiting lists which is great, but also a far more concerns over lack of dignity and compassion in care…

    I also would contend that trying to change behaviours by mandate (whether legislation or regulation ) is a poor way to change behaviours. Those who won’t change – still don’t change but become more marginalised. Making real change involves changing culture.

    So my points would be this: –

    1. There is no real need to further restrict the ability of parents to take children out of school for holidays during term time
    2. A draconian approach to this is misguided and unnecessary
    3. I don’t appreciate or need to be talked down too by anyone – simply because they help educate my child
    4. Treating all parents and all types of absence in the same way is patently ridiculous
    5. I still intend to take my children out of school
    6. Education and schooling do not have an exclusive relationship
    7. If I could educate my children at home full time without penalty – why should I be penalised for doing so for two weeks a year…?

    *Both my wife and I have several primary and secondary teachers as friends – including two head teachers and two deputy head teachers. My perceptions are not limited to being a parent or a pupil.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    Several examples of ‘educational’ jollies in my area recently – boys’ school runs a regular ski trip.

    Not that I’m against it. Kids learn life skills in a variety of ways, not just in the classroom, in this case how to execute perfect parallel turns and chat up chalet girls.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    By taking a holiday in term time we can give our children experiences they wouldn’t have otherwise during their formative years.

    So you’re saying that they’ll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

    Premier Icon colp
    Subscriber

    My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Yep the posher your holiday the better it is for the kids and all the more reason for taking them out of school. Do you want to do a list of suitable upper middle class destinations that you can take kids out for

    We don’t have ‘posh’ holidays. We are also not ‘upper middle class’. Eurocamp is safely not a posh option. I was only illustrating that we use holidays as a tool for education as well as relaxation.

    What is interesting regarding the whole class thing is that due to their longer holidays – that some private and public schools have, most of the people in the party sponsoring this change to legislation could take their children of the state school term time without fear of penalty…

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    ransos – Member
    So you’re saying that they’ll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

    Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example…

    Premier Icon joat
    Subscriber

    One measure for working out what is acceptable is to ask what would happen if everyone did the same. School can be a great social leveller, but also shows some people think they are more important than others.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Neither I nor my children are more important than anyone else. I think everyone should be able to do as I suggest.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example…

    So they’re losing out if they don’t go to Italy?

    gonefishin
    Member

    A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    ransos – Member
    So they’re losing out if they don’t go to Italy?

    Gove the op a break, maybe they don’t eat pizza at home.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?

    Only if they’re going to Italy…

    Jumped the the end of this thread to add my views so may have missed a bit.

    Some of the parents at our boys school have decided that, if the LEA/Gov/Schools or who are going to fine (in our case) £60 per parent, per child, per day then for every inset day where one of us have to take a days unpaid leave from work we will be sending them a bill for £60.

    This seems fair to me as inset days are designed to allow the school to provide training, organise themselves etc but why can’t this be done outside of term time? It’s not like teachers don’t get more holiday than most other occupations. Yes i know they still do work for some of the holidays but I know a lot of teachers who end up with 8+ weeks off each year! The average worker in the UK gets 4-5 weeks off a year so why should we have to use our holiday time off purely because the schools don’t want to cut down their holiday time?

    It can work both ways.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Some of the parents at our boys school have decided that, if the LEA/Gov/Schools or who are going to fine (in our case) £60 per parent, per child, per day then for every inset day where one of us have to take a days unpaid leave from work we will be sending them a bill for £60.

    Do let us know how you get on.

    This seems fair to me as inset days are designed to allow the school to provide training, organise themselves etc but why can’t this be done outside of term time?

    Because it’s their holiday. Do you do work planning and training in your holidays?

    It’s not like teachers don’t get more holiday than most other occupations. Yes i know they still do work for some of the holidays but I know a lot of teachers who end up with 8+ weeks off each year!

    Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it, they have to take it at fixed times (which are the most expensive), they’re not especially well paid, and they’re performing a difficult and valuable function in our society.

    If their holidays are a perk, I’d say they deserve it.

    surfer
    Member

    Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it,

    Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?

    Do you do work planning and training in your holidays

    Of course and lots of professionals do. Teachers are no exception here.

    duckman
    Member

    jamj1974 – Member
    Neither I nor my children are more important than anyone else

    I’m not an ‘internet hard man’ or keyboard warrior – but I will not be told by a someone whose salary I fund what to do with my child. Seriously they could go and do one.

    Choose please.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?

    Yes. I know teachers who work in their holidays.

    Of course and lots of professionals do. Teachers are no exception here.

    I don’t and never have. I’ve worked in the public and private sectors.

    How does that make teachers an exception?

    bigyinn
    Member

    surfer – Member

    Except, as you point out, they have to work for some of it,

    Is there evidence for this? or are you happy to accept the posters assertion as fact given that it reinforces your own position?
    ransos is correct, they are expected to work in their holidays. My step son’s partner is a teacher and the week before her holidays ended, she was preparing her lesson plan, getting the classroom ready and various training session. So, yes, they are expected to work in their holidays.

    MrSmith
    Member

    You are just trying to justify something that is wrong, selfish and unnecessary to save some cash, it’s not about your children it’s all about you.
    What if everybody else decides to take their children out of school? You should be allowed and they have to make up the numbers?

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Duckman they are not mutually exclusive statements. I think that to present otherwise is misleading. We all need to be more ready to challenge those who have power invested in them.

    I also know teachers, a lot in fact given my line of work. The 8 weeks I point to are what they get as free time. I also work in my holidays as my line of work demands this but this is from my 4 weeks a year. There are also a lot of other people out there who do this so I’m not moaning.

    I just don’t see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

    Of the teachers I know (50+) most of them seem to feel the inset days are a bit of a waste and serve little purpose!

    Right I’m off to class 😆

    surfer
    Member

    So, yes, they are expected to work in their holidays.

    No different to many other professionals then?

    Clearly he’s a human being who is incredulous that someone should have such a level of contempt for something so important.

    I dont read “contempt” (I have only read this page) however the language is a bit nasty and its a bit disappointing that you would defend or “spin” this TBH.

    Yes. I know teachers who work in their holidays.

    I dont doubt it and some of my best friends are teachers however how does this differentiate teachers from other professions?

    Trying to rationalise it by suggesting you know what is best is pretty patronising to those who are employed in the education system

    So only those employed in education can judge what is best?

    Premier Icon colp
    Subscriber

    A question for those who consider it to be fine to take their kids out of school during term time. Is it also acceptable for teachers to do the same?

    The teacher being out would possibly affect 30 other children.
    The child being out would possibly affect the child.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    I just don’t see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

    They were introduced in 1988 by Kenneth Baker. So you’re only out by 15 years.

    Premier Icon geoffj
    Subscriber

    They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

    They were introduced 25 years ago by Kenneth Baker. They used to be known as Baker Days.

    Edit – too slow, what Ransos said

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    MrSmith – Member
    You are just trying to justify something that is wrong, selfish and unnecessary to save some cash, it’s not about your children it’s all about you.

    Wrong. Please try again. You are being narrow-minded and seeing school and education as the same thing.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    I just don’t see why, with a bit better planning and organisation, these inset days are needed? They seem to be a fairly new thing and were never about 10 years ago.

    they used to call them teacher training days they were going on in the 80/90’s I’m sure

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    No different to many other professionals then?

    Then those other professionals should take it up with their employers. People should not be expected to work in their holidays. The clue is in the name.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    and were never about 10 years ago.

    Originally known as Baker Days – after Kenneth Baker, Education minister 1986-89……so been around a bit!

    Your are confusing teachers and schools though. School want (need) to put on staff training days and as such have to programme them in when the staff they want to deliver them to (teachers) are contracted to be there. Lots of folk elect to work bits of their holidays for various reason but an employer would be in hot water if they attempted to make it formalised.

    russ295
    Member

    Why don’t they stagger the hols as they do in other countries? Might not save the parents any money but at least it won’t be as busy.
    A lot of people I know are now travelling up to Scotland for flights as their term times can be different to the uk and it shows in the price. My mate has saved about £200 per flight (times by 4) for flying from Glasgow to Florida instead of leaving from Newcastle.

    Premier Icon geoffj
    Subscriber

    colp – Member
    My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.

    or perhaps arrange alternative child care like the rest of the folk whose annual leave is not equal to the number of school holidays.

    gonefishin
    Member

    The teacher being out would possibly affect 30 other children.
    The child being out would possibly affect the child.

    So what would be my response to that. If everyone is to be treated “fairly” and have access to cheaper holidays out of term time, why should teachers be any different? It’s either okay for everyone or it’s not.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    You are being narrow-minded and seeing school and education as the same thing.

    Do explain what educational benefit will be derived by going to Tuscany during term time, and how this outweighs the education that will be missed through your kids’ absence.

    For the avoidance of doubt: sun-dried tomatoes are widely available in UK supermarkets.

    surfer
    Member

    Then those other professionals should take it up with their employers. People should not be expected to work in their holidays. The clue is in the name.

    Many people arent in a position to resist or refuse. Many professionals dont have the backing of a strong trade union.

    hora
    Member

    Re ‘middle class’ holidays that include exercise, lets face it absence from schools in greater Manchester would actually be a good thing for the amount of time out v benefit.

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