Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time — New Rules

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  • Taking Kids on Holiday During Term Time — New Rules
  • MB – if you can’t take junior MB, you could take me instead!

    I suppose I wouldn’t have to read bedtime stories then.
    Can you squeeze into the same size suitcase?

    Premier Icon Richie_B
    Subscriber

    It’s not complicated. If you are bleating at the cost go somewhere cheaper.

    Hastily checkingScottChegg’s previous posts for the phrase ‘We are all in this together’

    This isn’t a question of going somewhere cheaper for a lot of us its more, ‘Can we afford to go or can’t we?’ (For the last three years the answer has been no).

    ScottChegg
    Member

    Can we afford to go or can’t we?’ (For the last three years the answer has been no).

    Problem solved.

    I think the OP’s principle whinge was that holidays are more expensive during school holidays. If you can afford it, you pay it. If you struggle, you look at cheaper alternatives.

    I’d rather go during term time when there’s less chance of running into a self-righteous asshat like yerself, thank you

    They wouldn’t let the likes of you anywhere near where I go, so don’t worry.

    Oh, nearly forgot 🙂

    If most can manage to follow the rules, why shouldn’t everyone be expected to?

    Case in point, new parent at my daughters school brought her little treasure into her new school 2 weeks after everyone else had started, and was outraged to get a bollocking from the head.

    Apparently, they’d been to France, “which was educational; not somewhere like Majorca”

    Crackers.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    Just went in to grovel to the deputy head about flying out a day before half-term. Turns out it’s a ‘training’ day! 🙂

    What about parents that have to work during school holidays? I was taken out of school for a week in June and a week in September and it did me no harm. If they hadn’t I would of never have been able to holiday with my parents which is surely a greater harm than missing a two weeks of school a year.
    My parents ran a small seaside shop of which had 90% of its takings during the school holidays, closing it to go on holiday would have bankrupted them. We only ever went to Torquay so nothing luxury.
    So exceptions should be allowed but cheaper holidays is not one of them.

    Premier Icon joat
    Subscriber

    Firstly I’ll admit to a chip on my shoulder about this because it was always the wealthier families who went away in term time, and normally to somewhere fairly exotic. Whereas a lot of the other less well off parents who obeyed the rules couldn’t afford anywhere fancy, so either didn’t go away or settled for a dank caravan on the coast. This was in the 70s and early 80s so it’s not a new phephenomenon. So in my opinion, if you choose to have kids it should be no surprise that holidays are more expensive in the holidays and should be prepared to put up or shut up. It also helps to think in terms of holidays being discounted in term time not hiked up out of.

    theashnav
    Member

    Mostly Balanced – Member

    MB – if you can’t take junior MB, you could take me instead!

    I suppose I wouldn’t have to read bedtime stories then.
    Can you squeeze into the same size suitcase?

    The Cider Barrel squeezing into a suitcase now that would be funny- a container would be better 😆

    Premier Icon mattbee
    Subscriber

    Don’t be so selfish. I hate kids and am happy that I can take my hols when they are all cooped up in school. Why should I have my enjoyment ruined by your screaming or sulky brats when they should be learning stuff so they can go to Uni and do some sort of dreadful humanities degree that’s of no benefit to society?
    Go when the rest of them are allowed out to ruin the lives of us sensible childless people. It’s one of the prices you have to pay for inflicting them on us.
    My reward for being infertile and intolerant is cheaper, quieter holidays. Yours for spawning is an empty bank account and crowded, noisy unpleasant trips. Bah!

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    I think its a damn good idea the decision has been taken at a government level

    a) it, at least in theory, applies to everyone
    b) schools have enough to deal with as it is, awful kids, pricks for parents moaning all the time

    Personally I don’t get it, I wouldn’t dream of taking my kids out of school to go on holiday, so I don’t look at the price of holidays during term time, they don’t apply to me so they are irrelevant.

    moniex
    Member

    We have always taken the kids away during holidays, until we started skiing (no we are not rich! Lessons free as I volunteer at the local club and hols £1600 all in for the 4 of us). We went half term last year. Coming winter however the half term of holland, Paris area of France and the uk all fall in the same week! Why can’t the eu coordinate this a bit better?? Traffic will be a compete nightmare! Easter not really as much of an option as it’s really late 2014.

    I would never dream of taking the kids out of school summer time (you get about 6.5 weeks!), but you are a little limited when it comes to winter sports. I hope in the future the eu will look into this so holidays can be staggered over February and march a bit better then they are at the moment (although this really changes every year, coming winter is just a bad one).

    Coming winter we are going the week before half term. Was already booked last February, with the agreement of my youngest sons head teacher. She explained we will this year get a letter explaining its unauthorised (I accordance with the new rules), but she will probably write “have a good holiday” on it.

    gears_suck
    Member

    ScottChegg – Member
    Grin and pay it. It’s a luxury item. If you can’t afford it, give it up.

    It must be a nuisance for teachers to go over work that has been missed by kids sat all smug and suntanned.

    The rules have been clarified to stop folks taking the mick. They are the same for all. Suck it up.

    And people like this wonder why ordinary people like me get a chip on their shoulder.
    My daughter is 7. We took her out of school 2 weeks early at summer break because we can only afford to see our family in the states every 4-5 years. To travel during peak times is out of reach for us. She gets to experience travelling to another continent and exposure to a completely different culture. At 7 years of age I feel this is probably of as much benefit to her educationally as the lost time in class.
    Are you saying that because I’m not as affluent (or is it effluent) as you, I should deny my wife and child the chance to keep their family bond?

    wrightyson
    Member

    Fwiw we booked a cottage as soon as we got back this year for cornwall again, with a very well known holiday company who have dropped a tinsy bollock with their peak weeks. The kids go back late next year, in fact ours are both back on Friday the 5th September. We’ve took a punt that it’ll be an inset day so said sod it book it! £800 pound week before £500 when we go 8)

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Kamelbakskuttle wrote:

    My kids are all at Primary school. I book holidays for in-between school terms, in periods called holidays.
    It’s not complicated. If you are bleating at the cost go somewhere cheaper.

    I’d rather go during term time when there’s less chance of running into a self-righteous asshat like yerself, thank you

    The feeling is generally mutual 🙂

    Have a look at Yad Moss, it’s open in the UK and doesn’t ramp up it’s prices during the school holidays 🙂

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Seriously the first and last time I get a bollocking from a head for my attitude to education or parenting they will leave in no doubt who is having the last word. It won’t be the head teacher. There will be a winner and a loser in the frank exchange of views and I will not be losing.

    I’m not an ‘internet hard man’ or keyboard warrior – but I will not be told by a someone whose salary I fund what to do with my child. Seriously they could go and do one.

    Fundamentally we take our children’s education seriously, seriously enough for most of the year that two-weeks abroad will and has not been affected by taking them out over the last two years. I care not that it may inconvenience the school or the teacher. As parents we do many things with the school where we spend our private time helping them. We spend a lot of time and effort supporting our children’s learning (including filling gaps left by the professionals). We don’t see schools as free child care either. For these reasons I do not see why the school or education authority should interfere with the holiday plans for my family.

    This revision and enforcement and the attitude if schools and some of you who have posted above boils my piss…

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Oh and gears suck. I see your point totally.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Joat. I didn’t have children to be pissed about by petty bureaucrats and the power mad and selfish head teacher at our children’s school. I don’t need to put up and shut up. For that reason she is in no doubt of my feelings whenever parents opinions are sought.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    It’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Going skiing in half term is miserable never mind the cost. Do not ask permission, just go and if school makes a fuss just apologise and beg forgiveness and ensure them it won’t happen again.

    Good friends of ours took their kids out of school for a year whilst they trialled the world as a family, within a few months of being back they were back with the rest of the class in terms of progress.

    Premier Icon Nick
    Subscriber

    Imo what it comes down to is setting a good example to your kids, and for us part of that is that school is so important that they do not have time off unless they are ill. Being able to catch up is not the point, the point is that we clearly have different priorities.

    We do have relatives in Canada and we can’t really afford to take all of us over there to see them, hopefully we will be able to but they occasionally come over hear and we can Skype them so that’s the way it is, probably cheaper during term time, but I haven’t looked.

    Anyway, I’ve just read the details (didn’t need to before, seeing as they don’t apply to us) and I can’t see why people are getting so wound up.

    Schools can agree to up to 10 days holiday in term time, if you don’t get permission and still go then they can report you and you can be fined. Maybe you won’t be told off by whoever it is that serves the fine on you (whose salary you also pay), but you may still get a fine.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    You lot have it easy! I’m clearly not going to get a whole heap of sympathy what with my excessive pay/pension/holiday but one of the biggest nauses of being a teacher, especially if childless, is an entire working life of having to go on holiday with all your **** kids! It’s a bit cruel – spend every working day in a place stuffed to the gunnels with ’em then the little urchins are filling up the pool when I go on holiday too. Thinking about it, if you could ALL take your little darlings away in term time but coordinate it a bit I can put my feet up (a bit more than I clearly do anyway) for a few weeks in the term and have a nice quiet holiday too. Win win!

    Seriously, I’ll get burned at the stake for saying this but provided you avoid the critical years (yr 10 and above) I’m not sure it makes a huge difference. Just don’t be expecting me (or whichever poor sod is feigning interest at the front of your child’s class) to do anything to fill the gap – there’ll be no standing at the photocopier for an hour making them a ‘work pack’ to take away and ignore; no extra marking/feedback of work they did whilst away; no extra classes or 1-2-1 time when back in class at the disadvantage of others to fill in the missed knowledge. I’ll conveniently ignore the email requesting the topics to be covered so you can have a go at a bit of DIY (the best bit is when you have requests from parents of tutees asking if you would mind contacting the 14 odd subject teachers their child is taught by, finding out what will be covered and putting a little pack together for them to leave in the suitcase whilst out playing on the log flumes). If there’s a gap in knowledge – it’ll stay that way. Choose the right time and the gap will be some bobbins about the norman’s and mid atlantic drift so no harm done.

    And jamj1974 – get you! Tiny word to the wise though….teachers are a vindictive lot – probably the inferiority complex we all have from not getting a proper job. The kids of asshat, know it all, balshy parents get the rough deal. Subconscious or pure evil I’m not sure but they are the ones that get paired up with the smelly kid no one else will work with; are the last one you think of when assigning the fun task; just never quite do enough to get the top mark. Just the way it is – so I hope you come over more likeable in the real world 😉

    duckman
    Member

    jamj1974 – Member
    Seriously the first and last time I get a bollocking from a head for my attitude to education or parenting they will leave in no doubt who is having the last word. It won’t be the head teacher. There will be a winner and a loser in the frank exchange of views and I will not be losing.

    I’m not an ‘internet hard man’ or keyboard warrior – but I will not be told by a someone whose salary I fund what to do with my child. Seriously they could go and do one.

    Excellent, so when I am setting a NAB for the week in term when a parent like you who “funds my salary” has taken your kids out because obviously you know better.In that case I hope you will understand that, well obviously because of the gaps I have left, I have chosen an exam that suits the strengths of the class….Of course your child can’t sit the same exam because it will then be in the public domain.Who does the blame lie with there?
    Still,you have made it pretty clear in you non-internet hardman/keyboard warrior rant that you know better than your child’s teacher,the LA or the Headie,so suck it up,OR perhaps it is our responsibility to ensure your child catches up?

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Duck man and Convert. I think that you have hit the nail on the head for me. Why is it that some in the teaching profession are unable to accept that aspects of the system they work in are faulty, overbearing or unfit for purpose?

    Our children have been lucky enough to have had some fantastic teachers in their schooling so far. Unfortunately they have also had a couple of teachers who are less so. We have worked bloody hard to ensure that where our children have needed extra support they have got it from us at home. We are also the parents who make sure out children always do their homework, consistently building on school work with extra-curricular learning activities and always support our children’s teachers where they have concerns. We have made huge efforts to have positive and effective relationships with all of our children’s teachers. We play a full part in the wider scope of activities that the school completes. We support trips, fundraising, community activities etc… We take our children’s education, both their and our part of it seriously.

    We (and indeed I) are far from “bolshie”. However with that said I believe there are firm boundaries over which the school should not step. This includes the taking of children out of school for holidays during term time – if it is not excessive. Ten days is far from a huge proportion of the school year. We prefer to take our children on holiday during term time and I am not prepared to ask for ‘permission’ to do that. Last time that I checked they were our children and other than subjecting them to abuse or neglect and ensuring they are educated we are pretty much free to raise them as we see fit. There is a legal obligation for parents to educate their children – but education and schooling are not the same thing…

    We suffer from a head teacher who (and I know this person socially) is extremely personally ambitious. This person is unable to communicate and lead either the parents or staff through inspiration, creation of a clear vision or journey for the school. Her strategy for the school begins and ends with what she wants to achieve for herself. Anything that gets in her way she removes from her path (in the case of several great teachers who have left) or ignores and minimises (in the case of parents views). In short she does not communicate or collaborate well and is unable to tolerate the presence of views that are not in alignment with her own.

    There is no room for pragmatism or measured response. Therefore she uses every sledgehammer she can lay her hands on to crack even the smallest nut… We have been informed on the return of our children to school this month that she will not tolerate ‘unauthorised absence’ and will take every approach she can to stop this. This isn’t a primary school that suffers from truancy and neither do the majority of parents regularly take their children out of school for holidays. However we all apparently as parents need to understand the power she holds and the consequences…

    We don’t expect a “work pack” for our children, we don’t expect our children’s teachers to make up the shortfall either. We do ask what they will be covering and ensure that our children cover it ourselves. We also fairly obviously wouldn’t take our children out when exams are immediately pending or taking place to answer another point. By the same token I don’t expect to ask for permission of a public servant (and that is what teachers are.) to take my children out of school, any more than I would expect a customer or stakeholder of mine to ask my permission to take an action within their business or in their personal life – even if that inconveniences me to a degree.

    For these reasons if our children’s head teacher wishes to take issue with the decisions I make regarding my children then there will be some response based on me indicating where the boundaries to the parent-school relationship are and how I am prepared to be communicated with. I won’t be patronised or crushed by someone else’s inability to be reasonable or pragmatic. As I said there would be a frank exchange of views where I would leave this person in no doubt of my position. Whilst I am very much against aggressive behaviour – I can be extremely cutting and critical where I see negative aspects and especially negative behaviour towards me or others…

    I would suggest that where the wellbeing of our children is concerned that my wife and I do know best. Also, I would suggest that if being vindictive is your thing that perhaps teaching or any profession that involves caring for others is not for you. Further ‘punishing’ children for the the actions of their parents is fundamentally the recourse of a bully, no matter how subtle the sanctions may be. Additionally, as the vast majority of my other posts and my wide network of friends and colleagues would suggest – I am a nice guy. I know how to treat people with respect, decency and integrity. I am also generous with my time and in the consideration of others.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    If only there were some government guidelines that one could mention in ones email to the headteacher stating that emergency service and armed forces personnel who have little choice over when their holidays are taken can take their kids out of school in term time without it being recorded as unauthorised…

    Oh, there are 😛

    jamj1974 Perfect Peter

    Why not home school your kids, you seem confident that you know everything?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    We (and indeed I) are far from “bolshie”. However with that said I believe there are firm boundaries over which the school should not step. This includes the taking of children out of school for holidays during term time – if it is not excessive. Ten days is far from a huge proportion of the school year. We prefer to take our children on holiday during term time and I am not prepared to ask for ‘permission’ to do that. Last time that I checked they were our children and other than subjecting them to abuse or neglect and ensuring they are educated we are pretty much free to raise them as we see fit. There is a legal obligation for parents to educate their children – but education and schooling are not the same thing…

    So it boils down to the fact they said no, should be a useful lesson for your kids later in life. I’m sure your kids learn far more on a skiing trip than they ever could in school.
    As the great philosopher Mick Jagger once said
    “You can’t always get what you want”

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Not perfect Kenny, just try hard to do the best I can. Home education can be a great thing, but children get a lot out of the social environment of a school. I’m not trying to say I’m great just that taking our children out of school isn’t selfish, irresponsible or bad for our children. As you can see from responses to my initial post – as soon as you say what you won’t tolerate from schools – you get assassinated for supposed negative behaviours or attitudes. How long did it take for someone to suggest that we were causing problems during exam time or to extrapolate that I was always bolshie – simply because I won’t be talked down and wish to holiday some times during the school year….? Not long.

    Schools and teachers don’t have the monopoly on common sense or education.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    So it boils down to the fact they said no,

    We haven’t asked Mike.

    Should be a useful lesson for your kids later in life.

    Our children already know very well you don’t get everything you want!

    I’m sure your kids learn far more on a skiing trip than they ever could in school.

    We’ve never been skiing and I wasn’t saying we were going on a skiing trip…

    As the great philosopher Mick Jagger once said
    “You can’t always get what you want”

    He did say that and pre ’76 the Stones made some great music. However Mick Jagger always seems like a bit of a tool to me! 🙂

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    We’ve never been skiing and I wasn’t saying we were going on a skiing trip…

    So last year we went to Italy and we learnt some basic Italian, built on some of the learning they had done regarding the Romans, learnt a little about the Italian aspects of the renaissance – particularly the science aspects and other learning including numeracy, literacy based around things we were experiencing and seeing in Rome, Florence
    Pisa and the towns near to where we were staying. Obviously we also went to beaches and went to the swimming pool as well.

    I get what you’re saying, and tend to agree with most of your points.

    Although when I read your initial couple of posts it did conjure up an image of a stroppy arrogant parent, after reading through them again I suspect your apparent hostility is to do with your understandable issues with this particular head teacher, rather than a belief in your own superiority?

    kjcc25
    Member

    To be a “good school” in OFSTED terms you have to have a good attendance figure, if you are not classed as a “good school” by OFSTED then the school is classed as “needing to improve” if the school doesn’t improve then the headteacher is sacked!
    So you can see why headteachers are under pressure to have good attendance figures.

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    FFS just deal with it. Your kids should be in school, not pissing about going skiing.

    Hmm indeed. First world issue of OP selfish enough to compromise kids education to get their perspective of a decent holiday.

    I’m happy to pay a bit extra to ensure my kids receive a good education, and selflessly have done great holidays al over the world before I had kids. 10 days in Portugal/Majorca all inclusive with kids pools and play areas next August it is for me.

    Fwiw you became a parent and life changed, get over yourself.

    Ten days is far from a huge proportion of the school year

    It is if its in the run up to SATS week (apparently)

    hora
    Member

    FFS just deal with it. Your kids should be in school, not pissing about going skiing.

    Wow. His kid(s) are hardly sitting about watching neighbours and eating chips. They are getting exercise/different scenery and enjoying a family unit in a beautiful and different location that most children can only dream of.

    If it was a week to Magaluf sat in a bar eating fried food whilst his parents argued then I’d maybe see your point alittle.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Wow. His kid(s) are hardly sitting about watching neighbours and eating chips. They are getting exercise/different scenery and enjoying a family unit in a beautiful and different location that most children can only dream of.
    If it was a week to Magaluf sat in a bar eating fried food whilst his parents argued then I’d maybe see your point alittle.

    Yep the posher your holiday the better it is for the kids and all the more reason for taking them out of school. Do you want to do a list of suitable upper middle class destinations that you can take kids out for

    Premier Icon Kryton57
    Subscriber

    Lol @ Hora, like you can’t go to a nice destination and each vegetables during the school holiday period?

    Duh…

    bigyinn
    Member

    So basically holidays & money are more important than education. Erm ok…… 🙄

    russ295
    Member

    It’s all ways puzzled me how it’s ok for the school to take a group of kids skiing during term time with the teachers travel costs funded by the parents, but it’s not ok for a child to go with there family?
    I’ve always took my daughter for week out in jan/feb and the head was fine about it, but she is now in high school and I try and go just after new year. Fly on the 1st at 7am next year!
    I sort of agree if its to sit in a tacky bar in benidorm for a fortnight tho!

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Hmm indeed. First world issue of OP selfish enough to compromise kids education to get their perspective of a decent holiday.

    Precisely. It seems to be more about where the parents want to go than what would suit the kids. Now, I admit I would rather go skiing in the Alps than camping in Cornwall, but that’s one of the compromises you sign up for when you decide to start a family.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    It’s all ways puzzled me how it’s ok for the school to take a group of kids skiing during term time with the teachers travel costs funded by the parents, but it’s not ok for a child to go with there family?

    To be honest it isn’t and I’m surprised there are many schools doing this any more – it’s been frowned upon for about 20 years +. Field trips, especially whole year ones, are fine in term time but anything that even vaguely smells of school organised holiday for select groups, no.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    As a parent my life has changed massively – massively for the better. I’m not looking for “life changing” holidays – in fact it’s not about ‘my’ holiday at all. By taking a holiday in term time we can give our children experiences they wouldn’t have otherwise during their formative years.

    Schools and education are not synonymous. The problem is that some teachers* and many parents think it is. Education is also not about targets. Setting highly arbitrary quantative targets is an incredibly poor way to try and assess performance. When you focus teachers on demonstrating their effectiveness against these targets you end up with a very narrow definition of ‘good’ and a system which begins to have a distorted view of what matters. We now have a large proportion of teaching professionals who have only known this system and have only achieved professional ‘success’ through it.

    I am not on my own thinking this causes problems, many of the people we socialise with* see this is an issue. It is this restrictive focus which caused some of the problems in a different type of institution – Stafford hospital. It becomes a problem wherever it is applied. In the NHS for example there are shorter waiting lists which is great, but also a far more concerns over lack of dignity and compassion in care…

    I also would contend that trying to change behaviours by mandate (whether legislation or regulation ) is a poor way to change behaviours. Those who won’t change – still don’t change but become more marginalised. Making real change involves changing culture.

    So my points would be this: –

    1. There is no real need to further restrict the ability of parents to take children out of school for holidays during term time
    2. A draconian approach to this is misguided and unnecessary
    3. I don’t appreciate or need to be talked down too by anyone – simply because they help educate my child
    4. Treating all parents and all types of absence in the same way is patently ridiculous
    5. I still intend to take my children out of school
    6. Education and schooling do not have an exclusive relationship
    7. If I could educate my children at home full time without penalty – why should I be penalised for doing so for two weeks a year…?

    *Both my wife and I have several primary and secondary teachers as friends – including two head teachers and two deputy head teachers. My perceptions are not limited to being a parent or a pupil.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    Several examples of ‘educational’ jollies in my area recently – boys’ school runs a regular ski trip.

    Not that I’m against it. Kids learn life skills in a variety of ways, not just in the classroom, in this case how to execute perfect parallel turns and chat up chalet girls.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    By taking a holiday in term time we can give our children experiences they wouldn’t have otherwise during their formative years.

    So you’re saying that they’ll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

    Premier Icon colp
    Subscriber

    My wife is a teacher in one local authority, my son goes to school in a different local authority. The two regularly have different holiday weeks for the half-term breaks etc. So either we pay the fine or the wife has to do a sicky under the new rules.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Yep the posher your holiday the better it is for the kids and all the more reason for taking them out of school. Do you want to do a list of suitable upper middle class destinations that you can take kids out for

    We don’t have ‘posh’ holidays. We are also not ‘upper middle class’. Eurocamp is safely not a posh option. I was only illustrating that we use holidays as a tool for education as well as relaxation.

    What is interesting regarding the whole class thing is that due to their longer holidays – that some private and public schools have, most of the people in the party sponsoring this change to legislation could take their children of the state school term time without fear of penalty…

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    ransos – Member
    So you’re saying that they’ll lose out unless they go on holiday in term time? How?

    Go for longer, go for more trips, actually afford to go to Italy for example…

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