Table saws USA. The woodworking times they are a changin’

This video popped up for me this morning.
I’ve not got time to truly digest it all before work, but it’s interesting that the landscape for table saws in the US looks to be changing.

I’ve always thought that the way that table saws are generally used in North America is pure lunacy, and I’m not sure how I feel about Sawstop technology in that yeah, it prevents some accidents, but it doesn’t address the cause of accidents which is usually down to a casual approach and poor technique.

Unlike when I was first learning, YouTube now exists and so like it or not, the approach that American woodworkers use, is finding it’s way into the UK more and more.

Looks like there are plans to change the legislation around table saws and that of course, there are scores of people against this legislation.

Dare I say it, does it ever so slightly draw a a bit of a parallel with attempts to change gun laws in the US in terms of this sense that their fundamental freedoms are at stake?

Anyway, kind of interesting I thought.
I like that towards the end he gives some time to explaining that so many of these accidents could be prevented by people just fitting crown guards and riving knives to their saws.

Well duh America… 🙄

It always amazes me how spectacularly stupid they are about power tools.

Tables saws and angle grinders in particular.

Also. Stumpynubs has upgraded the shop I see.

TLDW? They’re implementing safety regulations that are standard throughout the rest of the world?

Presumably outrage and disgust that some constitutional rights are being trampled all over?

I see you scrolled down straight to the comments Reeksy.

Not the video though. Stumpy nubs had a pretty close call with a table saw and was pretty open and honest about how he supports safe working and stuff.

It always amazes me how spectacularly stupid they are about power tools.

+1

But not just in the USA, across the world fingers, limbs and life are cheap…

Best quote was from a pal to another when lending out his big mitre saw:

“be careful, it won’t just cut you, it’ll cut bits of you off”

But not just in the USA, across the world fingers, limbs and life are cheap…

I was referring  more to the government etc.

It’s basically operates like a third world country with a shed load of money.

I see you scrolled down straight to the comments Reeksy.

Didn’t even do that I saw (no pun intended) the length of the video and clicked out.

Will never forget the guy my age at a local dairy who was DOA after a grinding disc shattered and pierced his chest. Guard removed of course.

His workshop is far too tidy.

Just get an Altendorf or Felder and be done with it.

Best quote was from a pal to another when lending out his big mitre saw:

“be careful, it won’t just cut you, it’ll cut bits of you off”

Every time I start up my Kapex it scares the shit out of me, you can feel the torque of the motor and it’s fairly obvious that if anything were pulled in, it’s going right through it!

I watched the video last night.

I own a table saw. A cheap Titan from Screwfix. Blade guard was removed and splitter cut down very early on.

I use the saw occasionally. Like all my power tools.

Once the saw blade is stopped from what I remember the blade is trashed by the braking system?

I’d prefer the improved guard system that is suggested at the end of the video.

I think I’ll buy a plunge/rail saw if the table saw fails.

TLDW? They’re implementing safety regulations that are standard throughout the rest of the world?

No. They want far tougher regs because people keep removing the existing safety equipment.

As stumpy says at the end better education might be enough. At the very least stopping YouTubers promoting the practice of using a saw without a guard would be a good start.

I think I’ll buy a plunge/rail saw if the table saw fails

We had a great table saw in the last proper workshop I worked in. I now have a home workshop and just have a rail saw and chop saw. Haven’t missed the table saw even once in about 15 years

which is usually down to a casual approach and poor technique.

Or even a moments loss of concentration from a diligent and highly trained individual.

Every time I start up my Kapex it scares the shit out of me

And thats got soft start. I’ve an old dewalt dw700 slide miter saw my kapex replaced. No soft start, it goes 0-max rpm in under a second. Starts with a bit of a jolt too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-68702031

I have a table saw.
I have a riving knife fitted.
Americans are dumber than me when it comes to safety.
Do I need to say more?

Once the saw blade is stopped from what I remember the blade is trashed by the braking system?

I think that’s true on the original Sawstop systems but I think not any more (happy to be corrected)

North America does an awful lot of woodworking operations on the table saw in the first instance whereas over here, we have gotten used to other ways of working such as routers etc for some simple things.

I think it’s hard to change that over there.
As I taught woodworking for ten years, I was able to see the gradual creep of the YouTube effect on my students over the years.

Not good.

that’s a surprisingly good watch and well put arguments.  Especially the part about Sawstop offering to free up their patent if the legislation goes through and possible liability if you let your friends/neighbours use what would become unsafe tools.  I’m already very wary of lending my more dangerous power tools out as if someone doesn’t already have one (e.g. a disk cutter) there is a good chance they don’t know how to safely use it.

I find the North American (USA-ian) attitidue to Health and Safety to be staggering.

Dewalt are releasing a saw with a dead mans handle, double grip, where you need to hold it with both hands to operate it. Sure i can see that being a chore in some sitiuations, and maybe even prent you from doing some tasks, but the comments are crazy.

“us real men dont need that sissy s***, and get that guard off too. You cant get any [real american] work done with a grinder guard on”

Bit of a tangent really, but when you see those shows “rig men” and “lumber forest cutter blokes” or whatever, the commentator is ranting on about how its “one of the most dangerous jobs in the world”, but then you look at these guys, running around on fallen trees with 5ft chainsaws, or slinging oil string around like their trousers are on fire it makes me think, its only dangerous cause youre doing it dangerously. Calm down, stop trying to be macho, and keep all your fingers and limbs.

It’s basically operates like a third world country with a shed load of money.

50 third world countries in a trench coat

A friend of mine from uni days owns an American work wear company that specialises in fireproof clothing.

Guess what happened to their warehouse?

It burned down.

At least non of their stock was damaged.

So aside from whether I accidentally halve my hot dog with a table saw… Would you get a table saw or plunge? Main jobs are trimming doors as I replace them round my house. Every hole is different so it’s a great game making them fit. Ive done a couple with the plane but the rest need some major surgery on anything new to work. I have the space for an indoor table saw semi-permanently set up if that makes any difference.

if you are genuinely asking if a table saw or plunge saw is better for trimming doors id suggest getting an expert in! i cant even imagine trying to do it on my bosch table saw! you want something with a decent rail system. i splashed out on a festool a few years back and its awesome. Ive fitted 7 doors so far with it, and numerous other jobs so its paid for itself.

i must admit i have been know to remove the guard on my table saw, mostly when cutting really deep stuff, when ive broken down longer and thicker timber into more usable sizes or for odd stuff, like when i needed to fit a garden gate at 45 degrees to the fence so needed to split a post at an angle. i was very nervous but couldnt think of a better way. possibly a bandsaw but i dont have one of those yet

for most jobs though i use my rail saw

if you are genuinely asking if a table saw or plunge saw is better for trimming doors id suggest getting an expert in!

It’s not that weird a question is it? I just rewired the lighting, refurbished and re-fitted units and built a stud wall (including door which didn’t need trimming) in my utility over the Easter weekend, so I don’t think I can’t do it… Ive never used a table saw less than 10′ long before, so was a genuine question on rails or table.

However I did some more research and Im going for neither, and will get a rip guide for my existing saw, as its a lot cheaper and looks like it will do what I need just fine without buying yet another saw…

Bit of a tangent really, but when you see those shows “rig men” and “lumber forest cutter blokes”

The issue with a lot of stuff is the pervasive attitude.

Like these guys are not the old timers that are resistant to change but newer guys who just parrot the bullshit they were force-fed..

In Europe you actually can’t do some of the things Americans can on the table saw. The Arbor is required to only accept a single blade to minimise the rotating mass and keep braking to a stop within a set time. So dado stacks on modern machines are just not possible.

Power tools aren’t much fun anyway, if its a hobby hand tools are much more manly.

These injuries wouldn’t happen if they armed carpenters.

So dado stacks on modern machines are just not possible.

Not sure how many would be running dado that much. when a router can be set for the same job, and nowhere near as dangerous.

Maybe if you build lots of cabinets and bookshelves every day than it would be justifiable, but for most workers a router is just as good

It is a bit odd asking about using a table saw to trim a door! not saying you cant do it….

a straight edge and a circular saw will be fine, i use a cheap silverline plasterers edge. no reason you cant be just as accurate with it vs a rail saw. but its significantly easier and faster with a rail saw. plus depending on the door you may want a finer tooth blade than the blade you normally get on a circular saw, especially if its a veneer

im just an amateur, rail saw helped elevate my game. cicular saw still gets plenty of use too where accuracy of a few mm is less of a concern

Table saw is very handy for cutting down pieces of dimensional timber to odd sizes. Can’t do that with a track saw. I do have a riving knife on mine (if no blade guard as you can’t use a sled).

It does scare the crap out of me tho!

Not sure how many would be running dado that much. when a router can be set for the same job, and nowhere near as dangerous.

Maybe if you build lots of cabinets and bookshelves every day than it would be justifiable, but for most workers a router is just as good

You obviously  haven’t seen many America YouTube woodworkers.

Tenon? Dado

Rebate? Dado

Bridal joint? Dado

They want far tougher regs because people keep removing the existing safety equipment.

Given how litigious the US is, I would have expected that to be the norm.

Lawyer: I’m suing because my client’s husband died using your defective saw.

Saw company: but he had taken off the safety  equipment that would have prevented this.

lawyer: but you made it too easy to remove so you are negligent

I think a lot of the difference is in just how widely used wood is as a building material. I do most diy jobs, and have man maths bought all the power tools I think I need, but have never had a real need for a table saw (ok there have been a couple of times it would have helped, but a normal circular saw was fine) If I were based in the us the number of jobs involving sheet materials/thick timber is huge, so most diyers probably have one

I do have a riving knife on mine (if no blade guard as you can’t use a sled).

I’ve been known to do the odd thing with the crown guard removed, including using a sled but, I always put it back right away as most operations don’t need it removed plus the extraction to it stops you getting showered in dust.

There’s usually a better and safer way to do most things where removing the guard is the method you arrive at.

You obviously haven’t seen many America YouTube woodworkers.

Tenon? Dado

Rebate? Dado

Bridal joint? Dado

I know our American cousins are mad on a stacked dado(might be pancake related)

And while for example a tenon can just as easily be cut with a standard blade it just takes a little bit longer. And while a rebate, or a dado can also be cut with a stack, though throw some stopped dados into the mix and the ‘dado’ stack is no longer the process that could be used, without that is cleaning up with a chisel at its end (and maybe a handrouter like my Lie Nielsen No71 😀  )

The reason we have 19mm router cutters is to fit faced boards into the housings for shelving.

Bridal joint ? not struck on using a dado stack there, as its usually cut on rail/stile, and cutting the stile doesnt feel like safe practise to me.

.

The only real thing you can take from the concept of a dado stack, is the Americans trying to do everything fast fast fast. Which probably has more to do with the cause of accidents in the US, than the machinery itself 😕

I don’t think we are disagreeing dyna-ti

“These injuries wouldn’t happen if they armed carpenters.”

I’ve seen Lethal Weapon, they’ve all got nailguns

I don’t think we are disagreeing dyna-ti

I didnt take it as such and wasnt carrying on a personal conversation, just a general one.

Bridal joint ? not struck on using a dado stack there, as its usually cut on rail/stile, and cutting the stile doesnt feel like safe practise to me.

I know. It involved a “jig” to Holt the whole thing upright. The jig was about as big as my workshop

.

@ben, I nloody love my tracksaw/plunge saw (wish we could agree on the name of these!), it’s just brilliant for quick cuts and yep ideal for doors. I was a “cut along an edge with a circular saw” person but it’s not comparable, plus you can easily use it for doing the tiniest of cuts which is super useful, stuff you might have used a sander for you can just lay a really thin cut.

I have what was the cheapest one at the time, from silverline, you can get the same saw under different brands. Main thing to watch is is rail compatibility, mine wasn’t compatible with any of the main brands but it only took a few minutes work to modify the saw baseplate so that it works perfectly on Makita rails. (which are also way better, with dual connectors)

I don’t do much “carpenter” stuff, but I do tons of editing down and modifying and fixing, it really opens up options for stuff that you just wouldn’t bother. Like, little thing but I wanted to fill a gap in the living room, ended up getting an ikea wardrobe and cut 15mm off the back of it and then took a slice of about 10cm out of the width so it fitted nicely, even did all the shelves so it’s futureproof, just something i’d never have dreamed of without the tracks.