Syria…

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  • Syria…
  • Diplomacy doesn’t seem to working…

    But Saudi Arabia supplying the rebels with arms has kept the conflict going.

    Premier Icon ton
    Subscriber

    with Russia looking over the wall, the yanks wont flex their biceps.

    Jamie
    Member

    A year ago today…

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82pn9Ht5h60[/video]

    cheekyboy
    Member

    What International type Action would you propose?
    Fwiw I don’t really have a clue what could or should be done, If the Brits were to send any military type assistance would you be willing to join the expedition?

    Jamie
    Member

    If the Brits were to send any military type assistance would you be willing to join the expedition?

    Can’t argue with that logic…

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    with Russia looking over the wall, the yanks wont flex their biceps.

    Didn’t stop them in the former Yugoslavia.

    I don’t think a bombing campaign is entirely out of question imo.

    Surely after todays events international action needed? Diplomacy doesn’t seem to working…

    Assad regime needs to go….

    I think a bombing campaign is entirely out of question. The West now realises that the rebels are worse and less reliable than Assad.

    The Obama administration is opposed to even limited US military intervention in Syria because it believes the rebels fighting the Assad regime wouldn’t support American interests if they were to seize power right now, according to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Effectively ruling out US cruise missile attacks and other options that wouldn’t require US troops on the ground, General Martin Dempsey said in a letter to a congressman that the military is clearly capable of taking out President Assad’s air force and shifting the balance of the Arab country’s two-and-a-half year war back towards the opposition.

    But he said such an approach would plunge the US deep into another war in the Arab world and offer no strategy for peace in a nation plagued by ethnic rivalries.

    “Syria today is not about choosing between two sides but rather about choosing one among many sides,” General Dempsey said in the 19 August letter to Eliot Engel. “The side we choose must be ready to promote their interests and ours… Today, they are not.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syrias-darkest-day-opposition-says-up-to-1300-killed-inchemical-weapons-attacks-by-assad-forces-on-damascus-8777527.html

    The West’s strategy appears to be to maintain arm supplies to the rebels through thoroughly undemocratic despotic regimes such as Saudi Arabia so that Syrians can carry on killing each other indefinitely without one side winning outright.

    loddrik
    Member

    Crazy to arm the rebels, it’ll be the hard line Islamists who end up profiting in the end. Better the devil you know in Assad, **** or not.

    See the middle east – nuke it – all of it.

    Jamie
    Member

    See the middle east – nuke it – all of it.

    But, where will I get my tahini from?

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    See the middle east – nuke it – all of it.

    It was generally fine apart from small scuffles till we/the western nations decided to get involved regarding oil/territorial pissing disputes, been to Afghanistan/Pakistan/Indian kashmir, (along wi Morocco, Turkey) – not been to Iran or syria yet but iran will be on the cards at some point. Very nice people, shame about the idiots we funded or placed in power all those years ago that have led us to where we are today.

    You could just as easily say See the meddling war mongering USA and it’s overseas policy? – nuke it – all of it and be just as wrong, there’s decent folk everywhere you look,

    You could just as easily say See the meddling war mongering USA and it’s overseas policy? – nuke it – all of it and be just as wrong, there’s decent folk everywhere you look,

    I went for a more realistic option. 😉

    loddrik
    Member

    See the middle east – nuke it – all of it.

    I like it, could we include north and north east Africa, none of it would be missed bar the oil.

    wrightyson
    Member

    The news tonight was truly awful to watch!

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    been to Afghanistan/Pakistan/Indian kashmir, (along wi Morocco, Turkey) – not been to Iran or syria yet but iran will be on the cards at some point. Very nice people, shame about the idiots we funded or placed in power all those years ago that have led us to where we are today.

    Lose the penis, go back and get back to me on that.

    But yes we did screw it up but when you actually read the history books it seems to be a case of more than it already was, there are nice people everywhere and the level of dehumanization some people show is astounding. But I still don’t care much for the culture though.

    But yes we did screw it up but when you actually read the history books it seems to be a case of more than it already was

    I guess it depends on what “history books” you read. How, for example, was Iran ‘already screwed’ when we helped overthrow its democratically elected government and installed a brutal Western friendly dictatorship ?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Start here for a slightly less simplistic outlook.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia%E2%80%93Sunni_relations#Shia.E2.80.93Sunni_in_Iraq

    Your narrative of “it’s entirely the wests fault” doesn’t really chime with things like Iran and Iraq blowing the **** out of each other in one of the bloodiest wars since the end of vietnam.

    Divide and conquer is all to easy when all you have to do is supply arms (which fuels your countries industry and economy), stir tensions and sit back, all the while applying a fake veneer of concern… welcome to western politics and the easy route to cheap resources.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    because it’s worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Action needed yes, proper plan needed harder to find.

    A UN Backed peace keeping force makes sense but Assad would probably take that as an invasion and then things get worse.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    To be honest, the misanthrope in me says if people are making money off the fact that idiots are willing to kill each other over hadith then fair play to them.

    Darwin Awards etc.

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    Your narrative of “it’s entirely the wests fault” doesn’t really chime with things like Iran and Iraq blowing the **** out of each other in one of the bloodiest wars since the end of vietnam.

    Yeah but you made that up …. “it’s entirely the wests fault” isn’t my narrative.

    And actually your example of the Iraq Iran War is an excellent example of how the West interfered and encouraged war and conflict. And of course supplied weapons to both sides.

    Still, you’re apparently happy “if people are making money off the fact that idiots are willing to kill each other” so we’ll say no more.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    And actually your example of the Iraq Iran War is an excellent example of how the West interfered and encouraged war and conflict. And of course supplied weapons to both sides.

    I believe Russia supplied arms as well. Without western arms and without the Iranian revolution they would have still found a reason and means to kill each other on an industrial scale.

    Yeah but you made that up …. “it’s entirely the wests fault” isn’t my narrative.

    That’s what you implied by trotting out the old Iran coup line. Yes it was deplorable, no it doesn’t excuse the middle east from sorting it’s problems out instead of continually blaming them on external conspiracies.

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Subscriber

    Right….i’ve lost the penis, or at least most of it…..quite a messy business considering all i had was a can opener and a plastic fork but job done none the less.

    Ahhh damn…..just remembered……apologies tom but i’ll have to excuse myself as i forgot i have a very rational refusal to get drawn into back n’ forward debates on web forums, i’m more of a drone poster…i fly high n’ silent and drop my point of view from a great height then buggeroff and go do something else as my attention span for engaging in such a pointless exercise is rather short lived.

    ….now….what did i do with my bell-end?………….

    Premier Icon stewartc
    Subscriber

    Why would the west want to stop this, the longer it goes on the more fanatics die that would otherwise be targeting western/US interests (Al Qaeda one one side, Hezbollah on the other).
    The Russian and Chinese also don’t want an end because its there weapons being used by most of the warring parties and hey, it just doesn’t affect them at home and although they may not get cash at the moment I am sure they are making deals to get paid some how.
    Lets not also forget that Russia has its big Mediterranean navy base there and is in no mood to loose that, whilst the NATO allies would no doubt like it gone (it would probably just go to Cyprus anyway!).
    I feel sorry for the vast majority of Syrians who I expect don’t want anything to to do with this bollox.

    parkesie
    Member

    Its awfull whats happening and no matter how much we want to help im sure no matter what we do it will get worse and be our fault.
    I for one am not willing to go to syria on the whim of our government wanting to be seen to do something and not knowing what to do beyond throw more weapons at it.

    piemonster
    Member

    Why would the west want to stop this, the longer it goes on the more fanatics die that would otherwise be targeting western/US interests (Al Qaeda one one side, Hezbollah on the other).

    Putty much my take on it, no one able to make a deciding blow seems bothered enough to do so.

    Yeah but you made that up …. “it’s entirely the wests fault” isn’t my narrative.

    And it shouldn’t be, in person most folk are fine and decent people. Arrange them into a state, and they turn into asshats on a regular basis. The Armenian Genocide springs to mind. And the Ottomans and Persians managed 12 wars between 1514 and 1823 just between each other.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    I take it the people happily saying just let em fight it out havent seen the videos of civilians (a large number of children) affected by the this latest alleged assad chemical attacks

    its not pleasant
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNT3f02XsE

    and thats not as grim as the one I caught a glimpse of on newsnight last night

    piemonster
    Member

    What do you propose?

    The footage on the news was pretty awful, I’m not going to watch them. If the UN will not act, which it wont, its hard to see what can be done. Some of the comments on this thread are, at best, distasteful.

    That’s what you implied by trotting out the old Iran coup line.

    I don’t need to imply anything, I’m perfectly capable of saying precisely what I mean. If I believed that “it’s entirely the wests fault” then I would say so, I don’t need you to put words into my mouth.

    And “the old Iran coup line” is a fact – Britain was actively involved in overthrowing a democratically elected government and installing a brutal Western friendly dictatorship.

    I see no point in pretending it didn’t happen or that it didn’t help to shape the situation which exists today.

    Still, I don’t suppose any of that will impress someone who is so callous and lacks the intellectual tools to formulate an intelligent argument that they have to rely on cretinous comments such as this :

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    To be honest, the misanthrope in me says if people are making money off the fact that idiots are willing to kill each other over hadith then fair play to them.

    Darwin Awards etc.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    piemonster – Member
    What do you propose?

    at the very least a no fly zone
    however russia is the problem there

    anything must come with an earnest effort to offer assad a peacfull exit

    Premier Icon FuzzyWuzzy
    Subscriber

    It really is a lose-lose situation, do nothing and the atrocities continue, intervene and you’ll likely create a failed state where there will still be plenty of conflict and atrocities (the rebels are far from united). At least doing the former doesn’t cost money and US/UK soldier’s lives.

    badnewz
    Member

    The record of the West’s dealings with the Middle East…this must be approaching an all time low…can it get any worse? As long as there is money on the table for the defense industry to sell more weapons, yep, it can.

    So we offer Assad a peaceful exit then what? Look at the mess in Egypt for an indication of what would follow and the last thing we want are people like the Muslim Brotherhood to gain more ground in the region. I don’t know the answer but a kind of feel like we would have been better to have left these dictators in place as unpleasant as they are, instead of trying to directly overthrow them or, as we’ve done more recently, engineer internal uprisings when there is no political infrastructure in place. Definitely a case of better the devil you know. Unfortunately in Syria it’s too late and we have more brutal bloodshed to come whatever happens to Assad.

    CountZero
    Member

    In among all the really serious stuff here, this made me LOL:

    Ahhh damn…..just remembered……apologies tom but i’ll have to excuse myself as i forgot i have a very rational refusal to get drawn into back n’ forward debates on web forums, i’m more of a drone poster…i fly high n’ silent and drop my point of view from a great height then buggeroff and go do something else as my attention span for engaging in such a pointless exercise is rather short lived.

    Thank you, Soma! 😆

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    I don’t need to imply anything, I’m perfectly capable of saying precisely what I mean. If I believed that “it’s entirely the wests fault” then I would say so, I don’t need you to put words into my mouth.

    And “the old Iran coup line” is a fact – Britain was actively involved in overthrowing a democratically elected government and installing a brutal Western friendly dictatorship.

    I see no point in pretending it didn’t happen or that it didn’t help to shape the situation which exists today.

    Still, I don’t suppose any of that will impress someone who is so callous and lacks the intellectual tools to formulate an intelligent argument that they have to rely on cretinous comments such as this :

    Apart from quoting the Iranian coup, did you formulate an argument that challenged my position that we just screwed up the middle east more than it already was. No, you attempted to make a smart alec reply with possibly the oldest single liner when it comes to middle eastern problems. My original “narrative” post was mostly aimed at somafunk, unfortunately as I was tired that wasn’t clear.

    I’ll post a video for you though because a subtle and in depth response to such childish attempts at winning an argument, with some of my own opinions… would be lost on you.

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axHR8AOxxkc[/video]

    chewkw
    Member

    The West is being nosey again at the affairs of others as usual. 🙄

    I would encourage the Western superpowers to involve then invite the opposing superpowers to do so too (be fair) but most importantly they should nuke each other by proxy big time.

    Then out of sympathy the West & EU should open the door to free immigration from all over (world) and stop your Jibba Jabba about not allowing free immigration … there, there … you have now achieve sainthood.

    My sympathy to the innocence and may they rest in peace. You are now free from this maggot infested world.

    Apart from quoting the Iranian coup, did you formulate an argument that challenged my position that we just screwed up the middle east more than it already was. No, you attempted to make a smart alec reply with possibly the oldest single liner when it comes to middle eastern problems. My original “narrative” post was mostly aimed at somafunk, unfortunately as I was tired that wasn’t clear.

    What “smart alec reply with possibly the oldest single liner” ? What a bizarre thing to say.

    I gave the example of Britain’s involvement in overthrowing the democratically elected government in Iran and establishing a brutal dictatorship in its place, because it provides an excellent example of Western interference and the negative consequences it’s had.

    And btw its news, this “oldest single liner”. Only 4 days ago the United States acknowledged its role in overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran :

    CIA documents acknowledge its role in Iran’s 1953 coup

    And incidentally why are you talking about “the middle east” ? somafunk comment referred to a range of countries from Morocco to Afghanistan, you do realise that the Middle East doesn’t mean Morocco and Afghanistan, don’t you ?

    piemonster
    Member

    I’d worry less about a nations asshat behaviour 60 years ago, and worry more about its asshat behaviour today.

    Otherwise you’ll be permanently enraged by every nation 100% of the time. I’m struggling to think of a nation/people that hasn’t behaved like complete gits at one time or another.

    There’s no need to be “enraged” piemonster. Recognise past mistakes, learn from them, and don’t repeat them. It can all be done in a calm and level-headed manner.

    I find it all a bit ironic when the west (UK in particular) protests and becomes precious when the pupil heeds the lessons of its teacher, and then emulates its behaviour.

    [/url]

    @piemonster – it would be good if we could focus just on the issue at hand but when there are people who either remember first hand, or whose parents were subjected to this treatment, it has direct relevance to what is happening today across a large area.

    El-bent
    Member

    There’s no need to be “enraged” piemonster. Recognise past mistakes, learn from them, and don’t repeat them. It can all be done in a calm and level-headed manner.

    Very noble Ernie, but as you know those in power learn that there is too much money and influence to be acquired to be worrying about the messy consequences for others to clear up.

    As they say, “protecting our interests”, what group of individuals interests in the west are they protecting? 😉

    People seldom do what they claim to believe in, the do what is convenient for them and “may” repent later.

    I thought this article was a pretty good summary of the current position:

    39838/andrew-j-tabler/the-day-after-assad-wins

    From Foreign Affairs.

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Since the year dot….

    It’s not like they haven’t got form….blaming western powers is simplistic and a western-centric view

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