Yeah I tried to download the presentation or at least view it but it seems too many STWers are looking at it. I'm only taking cheap shots at you TJ, maybe the figures are silly. Although seriously how much experience do you have in this area? It surprises me how many people visit places fro example 60K people came to Afan for cycling in 2007, in total it was 112k visitors, with an average spend of about £45 each. That's measured from the AFP visitor survey. I don't think the inners figures are that bad, but I'm not an expert..

I don't think the weather needs to be good for people to use it, I ride at afan all winter, I'd still rather have a lift to the top thanks. Whytes level if you cane it from top to bottom takes 35 mins or more, I like to have lots of rests and stretch it out, so can do it in 1.5 hrs. I think there is a good case for a lift/uplift here.

To bring things back on topic; I don't think TJ needs any experience of major Civil Engineering projects, it's pretty obvious that the numbers don't stack up.

I don't think it is obvious. I'm no expert but if you compare this with the Afan figures, its not too bad. Afan locality does not even rate as a tourist destination so all those figures are really from people just attracted by or related to the cycling (and fishing). Inners is much more of a tourist trap with more scope IMHO.

Toys – the uplift would be great but the numbers just don't add up unfortunately. Its a shame – I'd love to see it work.

The figures they give has twice as many folk as go to Afan paying significant money to use it. More folk than go to GT every year. Averaging more people a day than fort William gets on all but its very busiest days with MTBers IIRC.

No capital / start up costings done that I have seen nor any allowance for running costs / staff costs.

Can I just point out one of the biggest hurdles – it's in Scotland… The kind of numbers of visitors they're talking about just won't happen because of the practicalities of distance. Northerners will be able to get there in a reasonable time but for all of us in the Midlands/South it's a long way and makes a trip for a day/weekend quite a trek which takes out of time available for riding.

Afan numbers are pretty good but still lower than would be required for Innerleithen and it's situated relatively centrally for South/Midlands and to a lesser extent, the North.

Clubber – and Afan does not get all the folk paying £28 a day to use the uplift.

Absolutely. It's an expensive weekened already when you add fuel, accomm, food, brake pads ( 🙂 ), etc without adding in £28 a day.

Plus, come to think of it, if the guys I tend to ride with went, we'd probably only use the lift one day if at all and ride up the climbs the other as we're not gnarly DH core types.

£28 is alot tbh. Plus I'm guessing here but the parking charges would have to ramp up as well to help cover the losses/cost of construction?

Prices in general around the site would go up as well.

Great idea- but not in practice IMO.

It's likely the European tourists this is aimed at, definitely on the increase if my observation of number plates is reliable. And due to continue if the ferry service to Fife is maintained.

It doesn't exist in isolation, read the docs in combination with federal and local government plans for development and growth in the region.

I don't think twice as many people than Afan is that unreasonable. I can't say how many people visit the borders. I guess if you want big numbers build it dahn sarf, personally I'd rather see a lift built in wales as its closer to home…

hels, I'd love to see it happen and I hate negativity as a default position but there's got to be some realism to things for them to be viable. I just don't think the numbers are even close to adding up for this even with European tourists.

For a start why would they go to Scotland instead of the Alps/Pyrennes/etc?

EDIT – Toys – agree, Wales would be a much more practical/realistic location.

For the haggis.

EDIT – Toys – agree, Wales would be a much more practical/realistic location.

Practical for who?

Practical based on where population numbers are high enough to support something like a lift…

Oh and it rains all the time in Scotland.

I know TJ will be along with stats in a sec to show that it doesn't rain there more than Afan, etc but the fact is that people think it does. And that it's cold. And full of midges. And that they all hate the English. And that they eat haggis. And what ever other predjudice you can think of 🙂

Practical for who?

Me…

It rains a hell of a lot in wales too.

Clubber – if you are really lucky you get midges and rain at the same time

Well that's me sold! When's the lift opening? I'll be there 😉

think of it as a free protein drink as you ride along

Clubber, I think I'm with you on the negative about negativity position. You have to dream otherwise nothing will happen. I'm sure we will see it sooner or later maybe not at inners but somewhere.

some really idiotic comments on here
you can tell this forum has a roadie bias
i think ****t of the day goes to mollyioms though

anyway DH isnt as massive as cross country because you need a specific bike and some decent hills to make it worth while, one thing that really holds it back is the lack of chairlifts in this country, but

to all those people complaining about the price of chairlifts have any of you ever been to cwmdown?£27 a day and it gets booked up weeks in advance thats running 2 shuttle buses all day at the weekends and 1 in the week its rarely quiet
and that has one track unlike the many routes at inners
also
pretty much every dh race in the country sells out, especially the scottish ones

this year ive spent over a hundred on uplifts, moelfre, cwmdown, nant gwetheryn, caersews and im not even a dher as such

a chairlift will attract more people to the sport and increase numbers

it will require a big investment, probably from government but it will be worth it and the entire region will benefit

once again the ability of stw to be a bunch of parochial, miserable, self centred w@nkers astounds me

Hels – the project needs to be viable commercially. Where are the investors?

Practical based on where population numbers are high enough to support something like a lift…
Quite a lot of people live in Scotland too y'know. 1.2 million within an hours drive of Innerleithen*.

I "support" it, but haven't seen anything to suggest it's any closer to reality now than at any point since idea was first floated.

* http://www.carronvalley.org.uk/pdfs/2005/12_05_trc_report_forestcyclingandmountainbiking.pdf

Kimbers – or realistic?

You are the dream punter for the chairlift. However the numbers they use to justify the chairlift assumes people like you spending many hundreds a year just on the chairlift tickets – £500 for season tickets for the whole year. Or £28 for a day pass 23 times a year

The visitor numbers and the spends they assume from the research they have done simply don't add up.

How many people were at the uplift you were at? They expect 370 a day every day – so probably 1000+ on a summer weekend day to make up for the days with few folk

In this day and age do you really think the government is going to fund a project with many millions in capital costs and a loss every year?

marty, yes of course there are quite a lot of people in Scotland but not compared to England and certainly less than if you compare with Afan/Wales. Considering the numbers they're talking about it just seems completely unrealistic.

Kimbers, sorry but as TJ pointed out, you're the ideal punter for them. You're not however typical on UK mtbers and no matter how much you might try to use some lame 'roadie' insult (which really is as stupid as the comment that you took offense at by mollyioms) that doesn't change the fact that most people are more trail type riders who'll never DH. Sure a chairlift would increase DH participation but only up to a point I'll bet.

Kimbers

Nothing personal but you fit the chairlift petition stereotype to a T.

Scotland is still reeling from the almighty **** up that is the Funicular at Cairngorm – one that will cost the taxpayer many tens of millions to bale out / dismantle. There is absolutely no appetite whatsoever for Governemnt orgs to put themselves at risk of unleashing another one of those on us.

clubber – just making sure you know that it's not just a cardboard cut-out of mel gibson and a few sheep up here… 😉

how was the roadie thing an insult?
looking at tjs slideshow they are being very very optimistic
so theyd have to scale back their costs or seek input from elsewhere; sponsorship, holding regular races, that heights of abraham one seems to have their setup sorted

and yeah i have a dream, sorry for being hopelessly naive and optimistic but ill stick with it thanks and hopefully so will the people behind the chairlift

There is a (road) uplift service at Inners at present. As I understand it this only opperates at the weekend and "too infrequently" (8x) for some people's liking? Does this not indicate that there is insufficient market demand?

I was at Wolftraks on Monday and their uplift service seemed to be busy with customers and opperating about every half hour.

Would a less formal (no need to prebook, pay for 1 lift or all day) more frequent smaller "landrover and trailer" approach like laggan not overcome most of the inners complaints and surely a landrover / trailer has to be cheaper than a chairlift.

kimbers – Member

some really idiotic comments on here
you can tell this forum has a roadie bias
i think ****t of the day goes to mollyioms though

Doesn't read as insult, non-insult, insult to me though feel free to say that wasn't your intention. Or to put it another way, if I'd written

some really idiotic comments on here
you can tell this forum has a DH bias
i think ****t of the day goes to xxx though

Would you consider that I was being rude about DHers even though I didn't explictly say anything about them.

By all means, go along with the dream. Just don't insult anyone that doesn't believe it's a goer even though they'd like it to be.

(chokes on lunch) TJ have you done a slideshow ? Do you feature in it with a beard and a laser pointer ?

But seriously and to answer clubber – why do we go to the Alps ? I live near some of the best riding in the world and I have been to france spain etc with my bike loads of times. And so the french germans dutch spanish etc love Scotland, especially the dutch, again not based on fact just an OCD attention to number plates.

well it was meant as an insult, i suppose, mostly after reading mollions comment

id just hoped that stw would suggest some positive ideas to make this happen not just complain its too expensive and not enough people would use it

Hels – in an earlier post I linked to one – its the only place I could find the pesentation that was used in 2007

Not mine honest. I may be a geeky nerd but I ain't that bad honest.

But I'd like to have a chairlift in the Avon Gorge and a few million quid spent on making some brilliant new trails there too but it's just not going to happen because unless a generous billionaire donates the cash, there's no chance of it making money. So where does the necessary come from? The government isn't going to fund it (for a start DH isn't an Olympic sport which is basically all that matters to them) and companies don't really have the kind of cash necessary or the desire to splash it on a minority sport. Scottish government? Maybe but if it can't be shown to be profitable or close to, they'd rather spend it on things that non-cyclists would consider worthwhile.

I and most of the other reasonable people on here aren't being negative for the sake of it, we just cannot see how it can be made to work with any kind of realistic prospects given the costs, the economic climate, actual number of people who'd attend and so on.

How busy does FW get at the weekends with downhillers? Is the track heaving every single weekend during summer when the uplift is open?

Sorry, is anyone really taking Mollyion's comment seriously? 😀

In that case let me just add: All downhillers are big fatties who obviously don't need to pedal because its all downhill innit? Plus they all wear body armour because they are scared of getting hurt and their bikes are all so heavy they leave craters when they land etc. etc.

The figures they give has twice as many folk as go to Afan paying significant money to use it. More folk than go to GT every year.

Point of order, TJ, Glentress has > 250,000 visitors every year. (Source)

Still I reckon that a larger proportion of them are willing to spend 2 quid on a slice of cake than would be willing to spend 30 quid on an uplift pass. 🙂

Speaking from a totally uninformed position here, but surely the best places in Scotland to have a go at this are the ones who already run chairlifts in winter. There was an interesting post a few weeks back from a chap who had been to one that was dabbling – can't remember whether it was the Lecht, Glenshee or somewhere else – but IIRC the trails they had there were basically fire road, nothing a serious DHer would travel for.

If a place like that really put some effort into building up the facilities for mountain bikers, it could work. No-one would get rich off it but it could be a lot of fun.

>Point of order, TJ, Glentress has > 250,000 visitors every year.<

I think "that" figure might be one of the problems…

Sorry Chris – I thought around 100 000 folk. My mistake.

Point of order, TJ, Glentress has > 250,000 visitors every year. (Source)

IIRC they claim that's more than Whistler gets