have several videos from a good few years ago always enjoyed them. looking at the ap it sounds good so I’m thinking of switching from swift because it’s cheaper and I find swift always takes ages to load and I don’t use any if the racing features and the like.

I’m also interested in sufferfests version of ftp it sounds interesting. any one else trained using this approach?

Yeah use this a lot. I find it very good, keeps me motivated. The test is horrendous though. And don’t just do the 4DP test, you need to do the 4dp build up work as well.
I find it works best when I use it with Trainerroad. 4DP tells you what parts of your riding are weaker than others and then there is are training plans you select to improve on those weaknesses.
For example, I’m a crit racer, I don’t really need a huge FTP, I’m 68kgs currently and FTP is now 282. My weakness is repeated efforts about threshold which happen regularly in race situations. I follow a plan to improve those and with less focus on my FTP.
I find some of the sessions impossible to complete, which is probably part of the reason why I’m weak in certain areas. Also being 46 I’m not always able to complete back to back hard sessions. So I do have to shake up the training plans by adding in some additional recovery rides.

I was doing sessions in the work where someone brought in a tablet and speaker and we just used the spinning bikes in the Gym so it was just cranking up the resistance yourself. Downloaded the app last week and did the 4DP test last week which gave me bang on exactly the same result as trainer road at 256 ftp. Did my first session on the trainer today and it was very tough. I did do an hr in the gym yesterday and Christmas party last night so “a few” beers consumed.

btw, you get a trial week and first month for $1 with no commitment to continue so you can try out without having to commit.

But to answer your question, I haven’t actively trained using the 4DP approach but it seems to make sense so will stay with it now and start in to a training plan.

Interesting thanks.

Wood steer, how come you use TrainerRoad and not the sufferfest training program? I was a user of trainerroad prior to swift. Saw much better results but then again I was able to fit the training in easier (only 1kid then..)

I am also interested in The Sufferfest, currently using Zwift which is ‘okay’ but nothing spectacular for me. I find I do most of my training on the Wattbike Hub.

I’ve a code that came with my Wattbike Atom for The Sufferfest that gives a decent length free trial which I intend to try over the Xmas break.

Reading the reviews it gets a very decent rep so worth a try I’d say.

My bad! Sufferfest training plans are via trainingpeaks. They are free downloads. TrainingPeaks simply acts as your diary, sending you the email notifications of your daily workouts.

Yeah use this a lot. I find it very good, keeps me motivated. The test is horrendous though. And don’t just do the 4DP test, you need to do the 4dp build up work as well.

I was about to post pretty much this. The 4DP test is really bastard hard – you do a pair of sprints, a five-minute effort, a 20-minute and finally a 60-second one and it’s brutal. It makes lots of sense though.

If you think about how fitness works, a base ftp measure is only part of anyone’s performance profile: two riders with identical ftp can have vastly different sprint performance, or ability to recover from anaerobic efforts etc. If ftp were the only determinant of on-bike performance, time triallists would win everything.

I reckon SF is a better training tool than Zwift – I used both – yes it’s a simplification of what a bespoke coach would do, but still more sophisticated than just relying on ftp alone.

I wish SF would do versions of its videos with just the change of pace alerts though. That way you could simply run your own music over the top instead of some of their godawful tunes.

Although the idea behind 4DP sounds really good, the test to validate it sounds too demanding and probably (would for me) result in less frequent testing. Such intense tests are also more effected by mental / physical condition at time of test and skill of pacing. This is where a simple ramp test wins imo – no pacing, not so effected by physical / mental state, accurate ‘enough’ and doesn’t hardly impacts training schedule.

Also, i imagine experienced users of structured training tweak their workouts based on their strengths and weaknesses anyway so the main benefit is a bit ‘meh’.

As I’ve said before I used to share an office with the chief of suffer, they got a huge amount of stick for the “FTP is dead” from the guy who did the original FTP work back in the 70’s, most of the other serious training spots took a look and went with the 4dp being a good step forward to looking at different aims and skill sets.
I’m still giving them stick for not sorting out android yet, it’s the one thing stopping me using it now as I have access to watt bikes in the gym

So the main advantage of 4DP is scaling of anaerobic intervals?

So the main advantage of 4DP is scaling of anaerobic intervals?

Given it was explained to me in a pub the online reviews are probably a little better but, it’s firstly about measuring better, 2 riders can have the same FTP and perform differently or you can go chasing an FTP or W/KG figure that doesn’t really help what you are trying to achieve. So the key to any progression and training is accurate measurement. they have then split the workouts into categories for different aims and riding styles.

So the main advantage of 4DP is scaling of anaerobic intervals?

Not quite, but sort of. It adjusts power targets in workouts across four zones based on the output from the 4DP test, so the same workout could look quite different to two different riders – you also have the option to simply use ftp if you choose.

It also produces a rider profile which suggests what your strengths and weaknesses are and which workouts and training plans would potentially work best for you.

I guess an experienced rider might be able to work some of that out anyway, but it takes some of the guesswork out of it. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good for what it costs.

A mate of mine, who’s an age-group world champ on the track and a sports scientist who’s written books on marathon and road cycling training uses it and rates it. His take is that yes, you could get a more nuanced, personalised training programme from a coach, but it would cost a lot more and that the SF version is a good compromise.

Anyway…

Hey BadlyWidedDog

I wish SF would do versions of its videos with just the change of pace alerts though. That way you could simply run your own music over the top instead of some of their godawful tunes.

Just watched the dcrainmaker of the sufferfest app update due in mid Jan. Looks like they’ve added an option to switch off the music (and the video !!) so you can also overlay the workout on top of anything else (pc version).

Didn’t realise that Sufferfest doesn’t have an android version though, only windows and iOS.

Cheers for the heads-up, I shall investigate. The music thing always reminds me of a slightly surreal conversation I had at my local gym a few years ago. They played the same god-awful aerobics pop junk over and over again and they played it loud.

Then, one day, there was a survey asking which music people preferred. I suggested to them that given the wide range of ages and types of people using the gym, trying to find a music genre that everyone liked was doomed, so it made more sense to have a silent gym and then people could use an MP3 player to play their own tunes, which is what I did anyway.

This was deemed unacceptable because ‘some people can’t afford an MP3 player’.

I actually stopped going because I was worried about hearing damage. Things is, music is a really effective mood enhancer and motivation tool, there’s actual research that shows that listening to music you like actually makes intense efforts feel less painful, but of course everyone’s idea of great tunes varies.

So ever though some of the SF soundtracks are okay, it makes sense that the stuff you select yourself will be better. Anyway… fingers crossed the update sorts it.

The DC rainmaker review gives a good idea of recent developments, as mentioned above. The 4D structure looks a step ahead of what Trainer Road offers at present. I have gone the other way and am just enjoying doing a few races on Zwift, with the odd workout thrown in. I am sure FTP is dead and the Sufferfest method is better. My current FTP is 330 but all that means is that I’m a relatively big bloke who can sustain a decent 20 minute effort. I’m hoping that a few 1 hour races will improve my fitness while also keeping me motivated.

The update looks to have ticked a few boxes for me.

1, being able to play my own music
2, being able to overly the training bar onto other video sources.
3, being able to adjust the different 4dp elements separately in a workout.

And generally the user interface looks much improved. I am looking forward to its release.

Looks good. Is it just me, or does Ray Maker have a bit of Kermit the Frog going on with his voice?

Really interested to see that sufferfest are making their app more flexible – being sick of their music is one of thine things keeping me away from their app.

I can definitely see the benefit of the 4DP idea, particularly if you only train with power indoors. I think I personally prefer to test the short power durations outdoors – that 4dp test looks brutal.