Stormy near Keswick…..

boxelder – Member

teamhurtmore – Physical geography nerd here too. Those fellsides west of Helvellyn that drain into Thirlmere are forested in parts, but coniferous plantations on steep slopes with thin soil. Deciduous woodland would struggle to establish and even then wouldn’t slow surface run-off and lag time much – especially after autumn leaf fall.

There was quite a lot of stuff cut out of that forest in 2013 and there were a few new bits of fire trail constructed in there above and parallel to the A591. I did think of this when I first saw the landslides next to Thirlmere.

Anyway, in case it’s not already been posted, there’s a 2015 Cumbria Flood Appeal page people can donate to: http://campaign.justgiving.com/charity/cumbriafoundation/cumbriafloodappeal2015

He specifically said they did, just in a more managed way, with slower build up and release….

I was being rhetorical 😉

(Degree in Environmental Science, at Lancaster as it happens. We spent a fair bit of time on hydrology.)

Had all the rivers of Cumbria been rewilded in this way, there might have been no floods, then or now.

That’s where he said it. Right there. I think with record rainfall of a foot and more across the mountains even the most resilient river system would struggle.

Geology, Keele, did **** all hydrology

Moses – Member
I mentioned George Monbiot a few days ago. Here’s his opinion in today’s paper.

Flood management

Incidentally, where you you on Saturday night/sunday morning do you not think you could have been useful?

I agree with a lot of the above, some good posts from boxelder and then crazylegs, mattoutandabout etc. while I was typing this drivel…

As usual, Monbiot’s general intention is relatively sound, but his argument is typically opportunistic and offers a relatively superficial gloss to what is a much more complex situation. In conflating several issues in order to score cheap points he inevitably alienates others when a more nuanced and sympathetic argument showing a more comprehensive understanding of the situation would be (IMO) more appropriate*.

There is little argument with Monbiot that the level of rain experienced was unprecedented, that Governmental response to climate change is woefully inadequate, the current approach focuses on ameliorating problems in high risk areas rather than seeking long-term solutions upstream, that dredging usually succeeds only in shifting problems elsewhere, that current land management practices and subsidies are problematic. And I’d tend to agree with his bemoaning an “illiterate media” that fails to hold those in power to account – sadly he is the go-to journalist for these kind of stories and his reactionary analysis hovers around the level I’d expect of a cocky 1st semester undergraduate.

In many circumstances there are clearly arguments for increasing vegetation (and with it biodiversity and perhaps aesthetic, and even economic value), and engineering of watercourses, but solutions can’t simply be copy-pasted from one location to another as boxelder points out. Due to the vagaries of topography, geology, climate etc. (not to mention the differently patterned and competing pressures of land use, ownership, and policy interests) it is a subject that requires much more considered thought than Monbiot is willing (or able) to offer.

It’s easy to find scapegoats for the floods – farmers, governments, the Environment Agency, urbanisation, immigrants (!)whoever – and case studies of good practice. In doing so, Monbiot opens up an apparent contradiction which he fails to acknowledge. When citing a positive example of reengineering carried out in Ennerdale and apportioning blame for flooding elsewhere squarely at hill farming he seems unaware that much of the grazing in the areas which have contributed to flooding occurs on land (either commons or tenanted) that is not owned by farmers. In fact, the scheme he cites approvingly is on National Trust land.

Within the areas of Cumbria hit by highest rainfall the largest landowner by far is the National Trust (over 20% of the National Park IIRC), who incidentally are also responsible for the management of an extensive amount of land in addition to that which they own. The Lowther and Lonsdale estates are obscenely huge, but even together they aren’t half as large as the NT. Then you have other large landowner/managers such as the hedge-funded United Utilities (Haweswater & Thirlmere for example) and the Forestry Commission, and then smaller (but still very large) private estates, and the National Park Authority. If you map these onto the landscape you can see the large water catchment areas that the National Trust, Forestry Commission and large, private estates directly influence through their policies and practices.

Now if you’re to praise the NT for one thing they are up to in Ennerdale, it is hardly even-handed to criticise the many NT tenants who work the land in accordance with management agreements drawn up (some might say imposed) by NT and wider policy frameworks but not the NT directly. To point the finger at those farmers who neither own their grazing lands nor are in a position to effect changes to land and watercourse management, nor the many policy agreements in place that guide them is pretty harsh. In the pecking order of land management in Cumbria, sheep farmers hold very little power to influence strategies at the landscape scale – less I would suggest than the FC, the NPA, and the NT certainly.

I’m not picking on the NT to claim that they NT are a load of bollocks (though I do have concerns about their “vision” for the future of the UK, their public accountability, and political influence), or that they’re great (but they do some good stuff) – it’s just the way in which Monbiot chooses to use these examples appears something of a contradiction. Almost as if he is trying to shoehorn current events into a simplistic, preconceived narrative. Ultimately it requires more energy and more resources, but that is only going to happen if people are engaged and able to engage with the issues at hand. In that respect I find Monbiot reliably counterproductive.

*On Radio 4 admittedly he is not helped by the tediously formulaic interviewing on the Today programme which nowadays appears to desire to create heat rather than light. More and more like a Chris Morris parody every week. Precisely the video binners linked to came to mind for me as well.

FunkyDunc – Member
Just last week I booked a holiday cottage (with a nice little stream out the back) up a little ravine out the back of Thornthwaite.

I hope its survived ok, the owners havent been in touch yet…

Hi FunkyDunc,

There’s a strong possibility you’ve booked my neighbours’ holiday let in Thornthwaite. Their own home has been flooded out in the centre of Keswick so they’re dealing with that madness at the moment. However, I believe their holiday let is fine. Send me an email (address in profile); if we are talking about the same holiday let, I’m happy to be a go-between if it helps.

Amos at KMB posted this (Facebook via Twitter) – help spread the word!

This is what we emailed and @ # tagged to as many influential people and organisations as we could. Why don’t you like, share, comment & email about htis to any one that you can think of:

Hi There,
Apologies for bothering you at a busy time, but I feel that this issue needs to be addressed with a sense of urgency.
Would there be the possibility to consider the inclusion of a new cycle track when planning the re-building of the A591 at Dunmail Raise after the damage caused by Storm Desmond?
This could be a perfect opportunity to create a lasting legacy out of the heart ache and suffering that has been caused by Storm Desmond for the people of Cumbria and beyond.
I am certain that you would find an enormous groundswell of support with this idea in the way it helps to symbollically connect the Southern and Northern Lakes after such a catastrophic event.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to forward this to the relevent person(s).
Many many thanks
Amos Doron
Keswick Bikes Ltd

Any updates on any of the trail resurfacing that has been taking place in the national parks? Has it held?

As usual, Monbiot’s general intention is relatively sound, but his argument is typically opportunistic and offers a relatively superficial gloss to what is a much more complex situation. In conflating several issues in order to score cheap points he inevitably alienates others when a more nuanced and sympathetic argument showing a more comprehensive understanding of the situation would be (IMO) more appropriate*.

Indeed

Thanks for the interesting posts – seems a bit odd to be discussing these issues when people are suffering, so apologies if any questions/posts seem inappropriate in timing. No offence intended – just being nerdy!

Keswick Bikes. Yes we like that, good can come from the damage and disruption.

Sky had a piece from Glenridding and the amount of rock which been swept down and onto the roads is quite dramatic

parkedtiger – Member

FunkyDunc – Member
Just last week I booked a holiday cottage (with a nice little stream out the back) up a little ravine out the back of Thornthwaite.
I hope its survived ok, the owners havent been in touch yet…

Hi FunkyDunc,

There’s a strong possibility you’ve booked my neighbours’ holiday let in Thornthwaite. Their own home has been flooded out in the centre of Keswick so they’re dealing with that madness at the moment. However, I believe their holiday let is fine. Send me an email (address in profile); if we are talking about the same holiday let, I’m happy to be a go-between if it helps.[/quote]
Ooh, sounds like the one we stayed in a couple of months ago (Comb Beck) – sufficiently high above the beck that it should be ok, although surface water on the road might have got it a little. The owners had a farm down the road though, not a house in Keswick.

A WINDERMERE off road vehicle hire firm has offered to reimburse wedding guests after being accused of taking advantage of Cumbria’s floods.

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/News/Lakes/Windermere-company-offers-refunds-after-flood-opportunism-claims-61b3bd4e-a97c-4a1b-9a6b-244b14df7b7b-ds

Am I right in thinking there was some other drama with these guys a little while ago??

Steve Coogan was stranded overnight in his 4×4 by a landslide near Thirlmere, he said he survived on nuts and berriers Bear Gylis style, except his were from M&S 🙂

great idea about implementing a bike lane up dunmail raise, very fast road in parts.

Does anyone know any of the companies that will be involved with sorting out the landslides/ bridge repairs/ other civl engineering projects? I’m a freelance Engineering Geologist and keen to help out (and also available). I’m trying to find out who is involved. Anyone got any contacts in the councils roads department?

great idea about implementing a bike lane up dunmail raise, very fast road in parts.

Quite fun if you could hold on. I managed my fastest on-road speed of 49mph down there. My mate went through the 30mph limit sign c50mph!

But, yes, good idea from KMB

Bajsykel:

Monbiot’s general intention is relatively sound, but his argument is typically opportunistic

Since the guy’s been hammering about this for several years with little effect on the NFU, NT, etc, you can hardly blame him for repeating it. Only last month or so he was telling the National Parks body to get their policies changed. Fair play to them for inviting him. KNowing that government often makes new policies on the fly when faced with disasters, it seems a good occasion to remind them of other ways of managing water.

Ditto – during Helvellyn Tri* – kept thinking how much it would hurt if I came off in just at tri suit!!

Used a bit more brake down Kirkstone and even then almost hit a car

* lot of drafting in St J-in-T-V and then one bloke grabbed a van going along Thirlmere (Wrex Tri) and took a rest!!!

great idea about implementing a bike lane up dunmail raise, very fast road in parts.

Story now on bikebiz too.

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/reinstate-damaged-cumbrian-road-with-added-cycleway-says-bike-shop/018793

I’ve got a feeling that the powers that be will be so desperate to get the road rebuilt and open again that they won’t bother with a cyclepath. While it’s an obvious and extremely sensible suggestion, things like that tend to need planning and consultation and risk assessment and cost-benefit analysis and both the general public and the politicians will be clamouring to just get the road open again.

Ironically, I bet it’s a really nice ride at the moment, now there’s no traffic on it!

I think before you begin to criticise someone such as the NT for their catchment management you need to understand the agreements which many tenants have and the difficulty the NT could have to influence some of these.

I believe it was the last Labour government that incentivised more intensive use of upland land systems without too much further thought to potential impact. There has actually been an interesting catchment study being led by the NT working with Exeter University on the Holnicote estate on Exmoor, looking at a complete catchment approach and how we can design space into a catchment system for flooding working with natural processes.

Flooding can not be managed on the meso-scale as it simply shifts the problem elsewhere but due to differences in landownership and competing priorities it is actually very rare that such a whole catchment approach can exist.

Family own a cottage in Portinscale next door to the Chalet café, it’s under water for the 7th time, ruined again, gorgeous little place too, really feel for the people in the area who have had there businesses damaged yet again.

Story on FB saying the beck @ Glebridding has burst its bank again, hotel is asking for help with sandbags. Fark. It’s rained here pretty solidly today, heavy as the last few days but not all day.

There has actually been an interesting catchment study being led by the NT working with Exeter University on the Holnicote estate on Exmoor, looking at a complete catchment approach and how we can design space into a catchment system for flooding working with natural process

More Beaver needed!

Glenridding is flooding again. 🙁

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-35057763

Gut wrenching to think I was only up there 2 months ago , a nice little village ,really hope they get back on their feet soon

My first job was at the sailing centre:

Got married in Glenridding in May, really devastating to see this village getting torn a new one 🙁

We’ve just booked a long weekend in Keswick next month. I shall defiantly eat cow pie in the George 😀

Had my hen do at the Glenridding sailing centre a couple of months ago. Sad to see the devastation there 🙁

Legalam Funny that ad there was a hen party where we stayed at the YHA ..middle of Sept wasn’t you was it

FTFY binners:

bajsyckel – Member
To point the finger at those farmers who neither own their grazing lands nor are in a position to effect changes to land and watercourse management, nor the many policy agreements in place that guide them is pretty harsh.

True. I was talking to a mate last night who lives on a farm near Keswick and even on land owned by the farmer, they are not at liberty to dredge/maintain watercourses without permission. (He said the absence of such work cause the river by their farm to block a bridge and then overflow its banks.)

We are in keswick for christmas week. Can’t wait.

Candlelight parade thing in Cockermouth tonight – should be a good night if anyone can make it (town is a bit gridlocked at the moment though…)

Also Taste Cumbria Festival is on all weekend: (http://www.tastecumbria.com/festival/taste-cumbria-christmas-cockermouth/)

Community spirit is alive and well here (except for the thieving scrote who nicked my mates bike from his flooded shed on Gote Road – hopefully he/she will get what’s coming to them :()

[Quote]True. I was talking to a mate last night who lives on a farm near Keswick and even on land owned by the farmer, they are not at liberty to dredge/maintain watercourses without permission. (He said the absence of such work cause the river by their farm to block a bridge and then overflow its banks.)[/QUOTE]

He probably wants to do wirk to stop his land flooding which is the opposite of whats needed.

Legalam Funny that ad there was a hen party where we stayed at the YHA ..middle of Sept wasn’t you was it

Yup, that was probably us. It was the second weekend in September, and it mainly consisted of pregnant ladies making me drink lots of alcohol. Good times

Flood warnings again in both Keswick and Kendal. Police warnings to stay away due to the conditions on the roads. 🙁

yip stuck in kendal

Drove back from bowness this morning, we were going stay longer but decided to get out of dodge. Was getting a bit nervous about Windermere rising overnight!!

🙄 Guess who booked a stay in Keswick in the New Year last week?