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  • Stonehaven train crash
  • Premier Icon TroutWrestler
    Free Member

    I have just seen the aerial footage on the BBC. How the hell did that happen? It was earlier reported that the train had encountered a landslide and was returning to Stonehaven so passengers could disembark, but the scene of the accident looks like a full on high speed event.

    Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Think it reversed earlier to avoid flooded tracks. Looks really nasty, lucky there were few people onboard, not so lucky for the driver and those on-board though.

    Premier Icon yourguitarhero
    Free Member

    Was on that train a couple of days ago as we ended tour early and changed ticket from today’s one ☹️

    Premier Icon whitestone
    Free Member

    What I’m surprised about is that one of the motor units is plainly on its roof, one carriage is possibly on its roof but is underneath the motor unit and another carriage. The third carriage is down the embankment and apparently caught fire. Despite all that just three deaths.

    Premier Icon duckman
    Full Member

    I’m local(ish) never seen weather like this mornings here, even during the floods 4 years ago.

    Premier Icon trail_rat
    Free Member

    Horrendous

    Could not have been a worse spot for a rescue either

    Premier Icon kevs
    Free Member

    From what I’ve heard it had encountered problems up the line and had come back down and switched to the “right line” so would be permissible to travel at line speed, which could be 75. (This is from a forum I was reading earlier)
    I used to maintain the power cars involved and my last job whilst working for gwr was to do a brake test on one of the trailer cars involved.
    Puts life into perspective.

    Premier Icon mashr
    Full Member

    Despite all that just three deaths.

    Only a total of 12 on board though. If it was a more normal time (non-COVID) it would’ve been far worse

    Premier Icon mashr
    Full Member

    One of the carriages upside down under 2 others is a horrendous sight

    Premier Icon TroutWrestler
    Free Member

    I am further south, in Kinrossshire. Last night was the most sustained extreme rainfall and thunderstorm that I can recall experiencing. I have seen impressive storms, and heavy rain, but this went on from about 10:30pm until after 7am, as good as non-stop. The lightning was almost constant. The Met office issued an Amber Warning at 22.59pm, which is very unusual.

    This morning the inundation on local roads was like nothing I have ever seen before, and I was pleasantly surprised to eventually be able to get to work, but I am very surprised that a train was moving. At 8am the NE coastal area was still under the active storm.

    Tonight driving home, the roads had a bit of extra gravel, but it was like nothing had ever happened.

    I can’t make out from the pictures that I have seen if the railbed itself has failed. A tragic event with a lot of currently unanswered questions.

    Premier Icon trail_rat
    Free Member

    Stonehaven local bods rain gauge showed ,60 mm between 6-7 am and 90 between 6-9…….
    Normal measurements for whole of August is 60ml.

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    Could not have been a worse spot for a rescue either

    You’re not wrong i am pretty sure i know exactly where that is having inspected bridges on either side. That aerial view isn’t giving the height or steepness up or down to track level.

    Premier Icon trail_rat
    Free Member

    I used to cycle parallel to that line daily cycling to stonehaven

    Soon as I saw the first photo I knew it was going to be a long day for the rescue crew.

    Premier Icon stanfree
    Free Member

    I’m a train driver and it was a strange atmosphere in the bothy in tonight. Everyone is in shock , as someone said earlier It seems the driver was turned to head back to Aberdeen so unless instructed and as soon as he had crossed back over to the northbound track he would rightly so have been driving at the permissable speed. Its really just a freak accident as he had passed the area a short while before.
    I can think of no worse feeling as those old HST brakes are not the same as the modern Electric brake on the 385’s. My heart goes out to both railwaymen and their families also the passenger who perished as well. Ironically that train would have been rammed if Aberdeen wasn’t on lockdown or obviously no Pandemic. So Sad.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Full Member

    Dreadful accident!

    Premier Icon cheburashka
    Free Member

    Terrible. Train driver here too. Been an awful day. Thoughts are with all involved and the families of the poor souls who didn’t make it.

    Premier Icon notlocal
    Free Member

    Just spent the last 2 days on scene. Initially as a member of the ambulance service inner cordon team, and yesterday providing part of the medical cover for those involved in the recovery phase of the incident.
    There was a lot of coverage praising the emergency services, but without the help of the land owner, ferrying equipment and personnel to the site, the whole incident would have been MUCH harder. I would also like to thank the volunteers and locals who provided water and food.
    My thoughts and sympathy go out to those who lost loved ones, and as mentioned above, thank Christ there were only a relatively small number of passengers that day.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    An awful incident, thanks for your efforts notlocal.

    Premier Icon cheburashka
    Free Member

    Absolute animals, producing dross ‘read’ by Neanderthals.

    RAIB have published this.

    Premier Icon Futureboy77
    Free Member

    No surprise that The Sun would stoop so low.

    I stay at the next stop south of where the accident happened and use the trains a fair bit. Going by the pictures of those sadly killed, I’ve met the Conductor a few times and he was a really nice guy.

    Premier Icon oldtennisshoes
    Full Member

    I’ve met the Conductor a few times and he was a really nice guy.

    As a Perth to Glasgow daily commuter (pre COVID) me too. So so sad.

    Premier Icon project
    Free Member

    Quite a few reports on the RAIB website adviseing telling NR to get weather related problems sorted on the network, Glanrhydd bridge in mid wales where they sent a dmu out to rest the line with passengers onboard and the bridge had collapsed also the West Coast main line where water Scour had washed away bridge foundations, only spotted by a NR employe as a train passed over and he got all all lines blocked.

    Almost all NR rail track runs on track beds designed and built by victorian engineers in the 1850`s onwards and not much has altered in their physical make up since then,the days of locally based track gangs walking their routes daily has ended its now by drive by trains or some track walking if something is noticed.

    Thankfully the train was almost empty and so strong it kept the passengers inside the vehicle, and only a small fire to contend with,despite 1000s of gallons of diesel and oil in both Power cars.

    Premier Icon timbog160
    Full Member

    Terrible tragedy. I’m not at all sure it classes as such a freak accident as people like to think though. NR has always been terrible at understanding the state of its assets, as identified a very long time ago. It was a particular bugbear for Tom Winsor when he was the rail regulator, and it remains a huge issue today. Vast amounts of money spent on safety, and yes some very notable improvements, but this type of issue is going to be increasing in risk with climate change.

    It’s interesting to contrast the performance of the carriages with the Pendo at Grayrigg – similar type of accident, with carriages down the embankment, but a lot more people on board (over 100), but only one death, though still very tragic of course. There’s no question the carriages did better than an older DMU would have done though.

    Premier Icon cheburashka
    Free Member

    There was an article in the last (or last but one) ‘Rail’ magazine regarding a report on Network Rail’s poor infrastructure management, and the ORR demanding more infrastructure resilience to extreme weather events.

    Link

    Premier Icon mashr
    Full Member

    It’s interesting to contrast the performance of the carriages with the Pendo at Grayrigg – similar type of accident, with carriages down the embankment, but a lot more people on board (over 100), but only one death,

    I would assume the pendo would be stronger/safer however this crash had a key extra ingredient, it’s missed a bridge and ploughed into the banking on the far side. So that impact likely gave the driver zero chance, and I don’t believe it’s been stated where the conductor and passenger were yet. If they were in the upside down carriage (with 2 carriages on top) then I’d imagine they stood little chance regardless of equipment

    Premier Icon cheburashka
    Free Member

    The kinetic energy dissipation does look to have been a lot more abrupt in the Stonehaven incident than the Greyrigg one.

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    West Coast main line where water Scour had washed away bridge foundations, only spotted by a NR employe as a train passed over and he got all all lines blocked.

    Bit more to it than that. I think a train had reported it before the NR rail bod was sent out aswell.

    Its been scour assessed plenty of times however in the case the contractor had built himself a handy causeway to the central pier blocking one span. When the flood came it was forced through one span with the most at risk abutment.

    So in that instance it wasn’t neglect but unconsidered consequences of temporary works. Serious in its own right.

    Scour is actively assessed on structures that are at risk. Which is what i will be doing on monday.

    Premier Icon stanfree
    Free Member

    I was talking with one of my bosses who is privy to conference calls and It was noted that where the landslide had been Network rail had fairly recently cleared all the trees to obviously mitigate low rail adhesion . This is obviously fairly common and does make a difference in the autumn / winter.
    The downside is loads of trees also absorb heavy rain and floods .
    Its a lose / lose situation for network rail and Its not to say the landslide wouldn’t have happened. We will never know the outcome for sure , It could have been the train before that reported the first landslide may have triggered the one which 1T03 ultimateley hit.
    Very sad indeed.

    Premier Icon oreetmon
    Free Member

    I hope all the shareholders drink horlicks.

    Premier Icon Futureboy77
    Free Member

    I’ve met the Conductor a few times and he was a really nice guy.

    As a Perth to Glasgow daily commuter (pre COVID) me too. So so sad.

    Yup, very sad. Found out tonight that the driver’s kids are at school with mine. Tragic.

    Premier Icon peajay
    Full Member

    Shareholders? They disappeared with Railtrack.

    Premier Icon timbog160
    Full Member

    Tragic as this accident is, it’s still true to say there’s been a remarkable improvement in safety since the days of Hatfield, Potter’s Bar etc. I think it will be very difficult in the coming years to eliminate all risk of this type of thing, other than to use widespread precautionary speed restrictions. But that would have a massive impact on the attractiveness of train travel I imagine. That doesn’t diminish the need to better understand asset condition though.

    Premier Icon joshvegas
    Free Member

    @ jOSHVEGAS
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/583ef6ebed915d0aeb000027/R222016_161114_Lamington_viaduct.pdf

    Read that previously i wrote what i wrote from memory but i seem to have got the order of events right?

    Paragraphs 52 to 55ish describes the additional factor.

    I had forgotten that it had dropped off the scour risk register but thats not the norm.

    Premier Icon TroutWrestler
    Free Member

    Today’s information shows the train was travelling at almost the normal line speed for that stretch. I dont know anything about trains, but given the weather and the nature of the incident – the train had been stationary for around 2 hours – would this be normal?

    Premier Icon alanl
    Free Member

    Yes.
    The train had passed earlier with no obstructions, was passed to return to Aberdeen, so the driver proceeded at normal speed.

    Premier Icon theaccountant
    Free Member

    We’re all shareholders – indirectly – in Network Rail as it is publically owned

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Full Member

    alanl
    Member

    Yes.
    The train had passed earlier with no obstructions, was passed to return to Aberdeen, so the driver proceeded at normal speed.

    Has that been confirmed? Some reports said that the train returned by a different route. I think maybe that’s confusion caused by them using the opposite line?

    Premier Icon project
    Free Member

    Train driven wrong line at line speed, just like a motorist driving a car back home after having to turn round due to flooding and as they go round a corner theres a landslip, just happened, but when they drove that way before the road was ok.

    Theres also a series of large landslides on the Central wales line and also on Blaenau to Llandudno Junction line ,bus replacements in operation.

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