Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 120 total)
  • Stile End byway repair is dangerous
  • whitestone
    Member

    I’d extend the stone setts further uphill around the corner and put in a decent sized water bar/hump so it’s obvious that things are going to change.

    But at that point on the track things are starting to get steeper so you should be expecting things to change in some way. I’d only be going quickly if I could see the corner *after* the one in front of me.

    One of the videos shows the rider turning a corner to find a gate in the way, if you were going full speed what would you do then? Natural/organic trails haven’t been designed with any group of users in mind, well certainly not leisure users, so while keeping up speed/momentum is the ideal you have to temper that with the realities of other users; people walking/riding in the opposite direction; cows stood in the middle of the track chewing hay; etc.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    Council will probably discuss banning mtbs from the trail

    pretty sure it’s a boat so I’d think it would be tricky to pull that off.

    You could argue that a bridleway should be rideable by all

    I wouldn’t and I’m pretty sure the majority of mtbers wouldn’t either

    If all bridelways were made to match all levels of riders ability we’d start switching to other stuff

    oh you agree too.

    Why does a ROW need features to control speed?

    while I started off on this track*, but if the trail was redesigned and has suddenly become and accident blackspot (as seems the case) then don’t you think looking at again would be sensible?

    But be honest now, we don’t all ride at a speed that we can stop in.

    Not always no. Have had issues myself in the past. Dunno how much this trail is ridden but I was bombing along the wide flat double track and it all got interesting very quickly, managed to ride it out but it was a bit squeaky bum.

    *haha

    samunkim
    Member

    Leave aside the politics..

    Look at the cost, lets say £8,000 for every rider who has to be dragged out of there and cared for until they can get back to work.

    Creating a few rumble strips before the corner is looking like good value to me!!

    hora
    Member

    Creating a few rumble strips

    someone will fall off because of them because they werent expecting them/dont know to deal with them. Similar to waterbars that can affect some riders.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    Donk, I’d agree it would be good if its becoming a drain on mtr resources as mentioned above, but not due to accidents alone. Not that I don’t care, just think the only responsibility is with the rider. If we said that bridleway maintenance includes responsibility to provide ‘safe’ trails for mtbs then for me that’s going too far, how is that judged? I expect a lawyer could win a claim here but the law and what’s right aren’t always the same. Its not a trail centre, simply a place we have a right to use with due care. Just my op tho.

    Flattyres
    Member

    nbt – I think the problem here (from what was said above) is that the track leading into this corner was straightened when it was rebuilt. It actually needs to be *LESS* straight on the lead-in, so as to control speed

    Excatly my point. While this is not a mtb centre trail it is a recently redesigned trail, which IMO has not taken mountain bikers into account as a user group (again). No, the ROW network shouldn’t be designed specifically for us but we are a legitimate user group, so or needs should be address along with everyone else’s. My point to those responsible for the Lakes ROW network was that it needed more corners, not less. This would make it safer and more interseting.

    Flattyres
    Member

    thekettle – As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream

    The local Mountain Rescue noting that this corner is ‘becoming’ a mtb accident black spot kind of proves my point. This corner didn’t exist before the redesign. So it seems they have built something that is condusive to accidents. Yes, ride to what’s ahead….I think I’ve covered that point in numerous previous posts but people make mistakes and this corner doesn’t help matters. Putting in another tight corner that is visible above this problematical one was my suggestion.

    Premier Icon antigee
    Subscriber

    was it actually the local MRT?

    “thekettle – Member
    Just spotted this thread. As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream.”

    would like to think the MRT would simply encourage riding to the conditions

    BenjiM
    Member

    Not always no. Have had issues myself in the past. Dunno how much this trail is ridden but I was bombing along the wide flat double track and it all got interesting very quickly, managed to ride it out but it was a bit squeaky bum.

    That descent is something else when you come into it at speed and when I did it first time I just hung on and managed to get to the bottom in on piece. It was somewhat unforgiving on a hardtail!

    edlong
    Member

    Are things really, really different in the Lakes from how things are round my way, or is anyone else reading this thread and scratching their heads with all these statements about “trail design” and what the “designers” did to the ‘trail’ when it was repaired?

    If you want designed trails, go to a trail centre. If you want to ride natural then don’t complain if the trails aren’t “designed” how you’d like them.

    What’s next? Complaining they haven’t been gritted when it’s icy?

    And imo anyone suggesting, even in jest, any sort of litigation* following an injury sustained while mountain biking on bridleways or similar should be banned from the sport, and all websites associated with it, immediately – this is clearly not the sport for you – maybe try golf?

    *exceptions may be needed for people actively trying to injure peeps with obstacles, piano wire etc.

    Premier Icon wwaswas
    Subscriber

    any sort of litigation* following an injury sustained while mountain biking on bridleways or similar should be banned from the sport

    Including the bloke who sued ATB and Fox when an alleged fork QR failure on a fast strait bridleway descent led to him being left a paraplegic? Although banning him would have been a bit pointless I suppose.

    Premier Icon mick_r
    Subscriber

    Sorry to hear about your accident, but at Feb half term my 12 and 10 year old kids both happily rode down it without problems. I warned them at the top of the pass that the track would get steep and rough (it has always been steep, rough and slippy) but otherwise just let them sort themselves out (and that was the first time any of us had ridden or seen the newly resurfaced bit).

    You would have to come into it stupidly fast to be unable to adjust your speed and cope with the obstacle (probably travelling far too fast for the location considering you often meet walkers, horses and vehicles on it).

    lemonysam
    Member

    Just spotted this thread. As a local with many friends on the Mountain Rescue team, that bend is fast becoming an mtb accident back spot! I could recount several similar stories to yours, some ending unconscious in the stream.”

    I’ve just had a look at the Kendal MRT rescue list and the only rescue I can see on there is from the 7th and is a broken arm – I assume that’s the OP’s mate. Are these people self-evacuating after serious head injuries?

    edit: scratch that there’s on in 2013 I’d missed.

    hora
    Member

    You would have to come into it stupidly fast to be unable to adjust your speed and cope with the obstacle (probably travelling far too fast for the location considering you often meet walkers, horses and vehicles on it).

    Again another good point and when I’ve spoken to elder/older walkers their main concerns are speed (fear of control near them) and not saying hello or good morning.

    legend
    Member

    If you want this (non-feature) made ‘safer’, I bet you’ll end up with a water bar or two before it, everyone loves moar water bars on their trails

    Flattyres
    Member

    edlong – or is anyone else reading this thread and scratching their heads with all these statements about “trail design” and what the “designers” did to the ‘trail’ when it was repaired?

    If you want designed trails, go to a trail centre. If you want to ride natural then don’t complain if the trails aren’t “designed” how you’d like them.

    Of course it’s designed. There will be design procedures on how to put in cobbled bends and rebuild byways. They won’t just send a bunch of guys up there and tell them to make it up as they go along? It’s a recently upgraded track that near the bottom is completely new.

    And really, I’m not going to start emailing ROW authorities about natural trails, I love them in all their variety. However if they put in a modern upgrade/rebuild to a trail and I don’t like how they have done it I have decided that I best start informing them of my thoughts as a mountain biker, so perhaps they will build something more suitable for all in the future, ie that they might include these things in future procudres they follow when designing trail upgrades.

    If you find newely built features that you don’t agree with then I would advise you start telling those responsible. Otherwise all it may take is one email from, say a walker, saying they want a completely smooth trail….and you know where that leads!

    Premier Icon lesgrandepotato
    Subscriber

    Is it lost on half the posters that assuming a Lakeland trail corner won’t be washed out / non rideable is part of the fun.

    hora
    Member

    “blackspot”

    If these riders had been going at a sensible pace on a shared trail they’d have been able to stop or turn in time.

    If it was a blackspot there would be countless riders injured there. More than a handful considering how popular that route etc is.

    Leave the trail alone and learn how to adapt your speed to your talent FFS.

    Most of my crashes are because I’ve left the ground. Lots of awkward bits on trails near me. If they were all straight gawd I’d take up knitting instead (or CX).

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    I have decided that I best start informing them of my thoughts as a mountain biker, so perhaps they will build something more suitable for all in the future, ie that they might include these things in future procudres they follow when designing trail upgrades

    The things is, what you end up with is a completely ‘safe’ trail. Like Rushup edge, Stanage Edge or Chapel Gate which have been sanitised to the point of resembling a sustrans track and perfectly safe* for any cyclist regardless of their skill. IIRC the standard for bridleways is they have to be accessible/passible for bikes, the corner was rideable, at an apropriate speed, you’re mate was just going inapropriately fast for that corner/his skill/the conditions.

    I agree that they could have built it to reduced your speed for you, but really, that’s your own fault for going to fast, not some stone on the ground. If you can’t see the trail because it’s a “blind” corner/crest, then adjust your speed so that you can stop in the distance you could see. Dumming it down to make it easy for you is one thing, the next guy wants it a bit easier again, and the next guy, and the guy on the recumbant, he’s a cyclist too.

    *huge speeds and waterbars excepted

    Premier Icon philtricklebank
    Subscriber

    Missed out on a beer with an old friend when he got called out to this on Saturday. I’m in two minds on this, and I was fiercely against the Rushup Edge and Stanage causeway works.

    Yes it a natural environment where accidents can happen, and that is part of mountain biking, and part of the fun. But it is still a man-made feature within the mountain environment, a feature that if designed/made badly could end in injury. Impossible to assess without making a visit to the site. But if the Kendal MRT is reporting repeated problems with this feature, where people are ending up unconscious in streams, I think it is reasonable to expect some remedial work. As much to prevent injuries as to reduce the workload on a volunteer organisation. Especially if it means missing out on a pint with an old friend 😉

    From the way it reads it seems that a contributing factor was the initial remedial work – allowing too much speed to be gained in the first place. This is a major argument against the Rushup works, and thought to be a contributing factor last year when a very capable MTBer was found unconscious by two horse riders on the Stanage causeway with multiple fractures.

    lemonysam
    Member

    Kendal MRT is reporting repeated problems with this feature, where people are ending up unconscious in streams, I think it is reasonable to expect some remedial work.

    2 accidents in the 2 years since it’s been done from what I can see…

    hora
    Member

    Whats the email address?

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    and thought to be a contributing factor last year when a very capable MTBer was found unconscious by two horse riders on the Stanage causeway with multiple fractures.

    Having crashed badly before on the smooth bit* just past the wall/gate halfway down before they smoothed it properly that made me squirm uncomfortably in my chair :-S

    hora
    Member

    A very capable mtb’er.

    They crash and get injured alot you know. Riding on a undulating and loose surface and all. Funny that.

    Ever heard of rider error?

    Flattyres
    Member

    Hora, thisisnotaspoon – please could you actually read my posts!? I’m not advocating dumming down, quite the opposite in fact. It’s the manner in which this trail has ‘already’ been dummed down that I have an issue with. Not much I can do if you are going to take exception about something I haven’t said.

    Premier Icon Metasequoia
    Subscriber

    It’s a bridleway (or boat) not a trail centre, so go slower. Looks like a good repair.

    allthepies
    Member

    Metasequoia wrote:

    Looks like a good repair.

    Premier Icon dannyh
    Subscriber

    It’s a typical ‘repair’ carried out by a body that is looking to scrimp for every penny (due to circumstances that we shouldn’t debate on this thread). They’ve gone for the low hanging fruit and sanitised the bit that was easy. In this case it has led to a dangerously tame looking run into what becomes a sharp corner followed by the original surface.

    What the OP has been saying consistently is that this bridleway would have been best left alone, from a mountain biking point of view. In carrying out this ‘repair’ the body responsible has increased the likelihood of injury. On really rough natural stuff your speed is naturally curtailed. Plus any reasonable person would not think anything other than “ouch, bollocks” if they fell off riding something that they knew what they were in for. The point here is that the (probably unnecessary) ‘improvement’ has created a situation where what looks like a tarmacced road leads into a blind corner and then the original rocky section. No matter what people on here say about riding within your speed etc, I’m sure we could all remember a time we were riding knackered at the end of a big ride and might not have been 100% on the ball. I am certain that a sudden change of direction and surface would be far more likely to catch me out than a consistently technical trail.

    There are many side issues here. Will sending an email just make the body responsible just think “right, sod you lot, let’s just Tarmac the whole lot”, as seems to be derbyshire county council’s attitude? But that does not invalidate the initial point.

    I’m sure most of us would much rather classic trails were left alone from a riding point of view. However, if someone decides to ‘solve’ the ‘problem’, they really oughtn’t do it in a way that doesn’t increase the likelihood of injury.

    postierich
    Member

    They did not scrimp on that repair it took them over a year!!!! its a challenge up and down now, I do not see a problem just people need to sort out their skill compensaters and dial them in or session the trail before hitting it at max!

    allthepies
    Member

    postierich wrote:

    , I do not see a problem just people need to sort out their skill compensaters and dial them in or session the trail before hitting it at max!

    Well there would seem to be a problem wouldn’t there.

    Premier Icon mick_r
    Subscriber

    I’ve ridden that track maybe 10 times since 1990.
    I don’t especially like the fix, but it has presumably been done to be durable.

    It has always been rough in that section.
    It has always been steep in that section (you are going over the edge of a steep sided glacial valley – that scenario hasn’t changed in a very long time).
    It has always zig zagged / had blind bends somewhere because of that steepness (often hiding easily spooked walkers in my experience).

    February was my first time of riding it since the changes. I accept the entry is a bit straighter / faster. But I knew “something” would be there so adjusted my speed accordingly.

    What exactly were your mates expecting to find around the corner? It has NEVER been full speed bermed smoothness.

    Premier Icon boxelder
    Subscriber

    FB group for Lakes trails issues.

    Premier Icon thekettle
    Subscriber

    ‘Accident blackspot’ was indeed the phrase used by my Kendal MRT mates, but as others have pointed, only reported 2 in 2 years. I’ve come across 3 others there, that self-rescued. Normally they overcook the off-camber LH bend. Garburn Pass into Kentmere I reckon will have a worse record. Like every mountain bridleway in the Lakes, it’s not built with cycling in mind, ride accordingly. Heavily repaired as it’s a byway that was getting destroyed by 4x4s on that steep section.

    I’m frankly amazed that the OP feels the need to cry out for sympathy to the internet & inform ‘the authorities’, just because they didn’t have the gumption to brake before (an easy) corner that dared to not be smooth & bermed!! Do we really need signs with ‘slow down’ & ‘caution there’s corner coming up’ plastered all over the fells? It’s about time people grew up and took responsibility for their own actions! Or took up golf 😉

    Flattyres
    Member

    Since posting up the issue I have with the work carried out on this trail I have come to realise it is quite a thorny one within the mountain biking community. It seems that a lot of people replying here fear that any engagement with the ROW authorities on the state of a trail will result in a knee jerk health and safety reaction to flatten it.

    To get one thing clear from the start this has ALREADY happened. I’m not saying it was knee jerk but work has already been carried out to repair and reroute this byway. The issue being rectified was one just above the tight cobbled bends at the end of my video, where the old track used to run directly underneath a stone wall. Due to trail damage created by 4×4’s the wall was regularly undercut and had to be rebuilt numerous times a year. Now, while I do miss the enjoyment of riding the trail in its original bouldery form I do accept that the trail repair was necessary. It’s the manner in which this repair has been carried out that I have an issue with.

    Before going into the reasons for this I would like to tackle the replies of ‘but you are riding natural trails, ride to what’s in front of you and temper your speed, it’s your own fault, they’ll just sanitise the trail (insert water bars, ban us, or some other Daily Mail headline)’.

    Firstly, let’s define a natural trail. I have spent 15 years riding mountain bikes, the vast majority of this time on natural trails. I rarely ride mountain bike centres. This means I have ridden many thousands of miles over many different types of natural trail. To me a natural trail is generally one that has evolved over hundreds, possibly thousands, of years by the passage of feet, be they human or animal, and the weathering of the elements. They are not ‘designed’ for mountain biking and can contain surprises around corners or over crests. It’s one of the big reasons I love riding them. The section of trail I have issue with is a very recent engineering project carried out by the local authorities and is therefore in no way natural. It will have gone through a design, planning construction process. In fact it’s so new it’s not even on Google Maps.

    While natural trails have surprises they tend to follow patterns dictated by the terrain. Generally, flatter trails are straighter, steeper trails more meandering and the steeper they get the rougher they become. Changes in the trail are proportional to the changes in the terrain. If a slope gets gradually steeper you can expect it to get gradually rougher, if the slope changes abruptly you can the trail to change abruptly. The top part of the descent into Sadgill no longer does this, more on that later.

    Ride to what’s in front of you and temper your speed. I do. That’s why I not only made it round the corner I didn’t follow the wheel tracks of the bloke in front like a sheep. But I still get things wrong and so do all of you. If you say you don’t crash you are lying. We all have lapses in concentration or read things wrong. Does it mean you ride at warp speed with total disregard to what’s in front of you? No, didn’t think so. ‘Middle aged men on bikes’ was one comment. Implying what? Born again, all the gear no idea riders? How about riders with hard won experience who don’t heal as quickly when they bounce, who’ve learnt over many years how to temper their riding to suit the current trail conditions because they know that a crash now will result in even more time off the bike than in their younger days? How about riders with families who really appreciate the implications of a shared trail? I ride not only thinking what might be round the next corner but also who. Smashing myself up would be bad, smashing someone else up would be devastating.

    It’s your own fault. In a word ‘Yes’. The bloke who crashed chose to go mountain biking and he alone lost control. No one else was to blame. One person on this thread suggested litigation. Wrong answer, please take up knitting (although be careful of those sharp needles).

    They’ll just sanitise the trail, insert water bars, etc. Please read my previous posts. To repeat this trail has ALREADY been repaired, rerouted and completely flattened, ie sanitised. Yes, I’ve email the ROW authorities with a concern over the work that has been carried out. Oh no! As all mountain bikers know it only takes that one email to get your favourite technical trail turned into a featureless gravel motorway. I know this from bitter experience, being a frequent visitor to the Peak District. But I’m not a walker or horse rider I’m a mountain biker. After hearing all the stories of ‘that one devastating email’ I have decided to submit my own, so at least the ROW authorities have evidence from the our side that flattening everything is sight isn’t the answer.

    After all my years of riding enough is enough. This was my first email and it probably won’t be my last. ‘Is this the start of a campaign?’ someone asked. No, I’m not going to become the Mary Whitehouse of trails, sending emails off left, right and centre. I prefer my trails X-rated and a bit risky, so will never complain about the state of a natural trail because that’s just how they are and I accept them warts and all.

    However, where maintenance has been carried out with a heavy hand and without our views as mountain bikers, a legitimate and growing group of trail users, being taken into account I will now take the time to find out who is responsible at let them know my views. But I’m not just going to email saying ‘what you’ve done is rubbish’, I will also include guidance on how and why I think they could have done it better. If you hate big trenches/water bars dug across then trail tell them and give examples of water management that you like. In future I will point people towards the work done the Roych Clough descent, or some of the flowing humps on Telegraph Valley. As to the why, well the first thing people bring up is that it’s no longer fun to ride so I’m not coming here any more, which is one issue. But why not safety? You have to lift your wheels of the ground to negotiate a ditch and this is not good for control on a steep slope. Or maintenance? You’ll have to brake hard before a water bar, increasing trail erosion. All stuff they might not know until it’s pointed out to them. In my book the more of us who say something the better. Say nothing and all you’ll have left is moaning on a mtb forum, see where that gets you.

    At this point I will doff my cap (ooh, there’s my middle age again) to the guys in the Peak District, who’ve banded together to present a united front to the County Council, to inform them of how their actions impact the mtb community and how to do things better. And they are only the ones I know. I really do applaud the work put in by any one person or group in this regard. Frustrating as it may be engage, engage, engage!

    So, now to highlight my issues with this particular repair work. The top section is now a flat, steep trail allows for speeds unachievable when it was previously covered in rocks. Although a shared track, for the most part this is fine as the sight lines are wide open, so you’ll get no surprises. Also, as this section is built on top of the old natural trail it is suitable for this part of the terrain. However, the track then steepens and enters the gully with a lump in the middle, which is where the old trail goes left and the new one right. On the old trail the rocks got rougher and bigger quite quickly but still ‘progressively’ and in proportion to the increase in slope, which gave you time to adapt your riding.

    The new trail on the right does not do this. While the pitch steepens the trail stays completely smooth so speeds can stay high. Although, as I enter the gully by the stream you can hear I’m on the brakes, because I realise it’s steeper and tighter. The problem occurs when the stream jinks left/right then takes up exactly the same line this fast, steep corner. Because of this, on entering the left hander, you look ahead and the line of the hill and the trees seems to follow the same line all the way round. It’s not until a little while later you get the abrupt ‘oh no!’ moment as the trail then turns hard left on the edge of the big , rocky crevice. Make a mistake, read it wrong, come in too fast and the trail naturally launches you into the streams spikey teeth. And it’s not always that easy to get out of this predicament. The bloke in front of me goes straight on, almost off the edge. Ever heard of target fixation? That tree you can’t help but hit even though you realised your mistake some while back. You go where you look. A lot of people will come round that corner and stare in disbelief at the rocky stream ahead of them, which is exactly where they will go.

    My advice was to introduce a tight bend or two on the entrance to the gully, somewhere to check a riders speed without a maiming trap on the outside. Safety could be added back in by making it less smooth, and more interesting to ride.

    To me this is the result, again, of those in authority not taking our views and needs as mountain bikers into account when carrying out maintenance or designing new tracks. ‘But it’s not a mountain bike centre, it’s not designed specifically for mountain bikes’. No it’s not, but it’s a newly built and upgraded byway that should be made suitable and safe for ‘ALL’ the current trail users. We make up part of that group so our voices should be heard. Try flipping that around. They’ve just flattened Rushup Edge and Chapel Gate, well what are you complaining about ‘It’s not a mountain bike centre, it’s not designed specifically for mountain bikes’. Doesn’t sound so good like that does it?

    Thanks if you actually read this all the way to the end.

    Suggsey
    Member

    FairPlay,stick by what you believe in, I have never ridden that trail so cannot possibly comment on the real life riding of it but in the sane vein last nights night ride through up a ‘ new to me’ Boardwalk with an option of OTBs or into a deep ditch which interestingly enough was round a blind bend…….I made it thanks to skill compensator bike and a moment of committment and I can now appreciate where you are coming from regarding it not being natural trail and being a poorly thought out construction/routing.
    We live and learn hey!

    Premier Icon thekettle
    Subscriber

    Flattyres, the Lakes does have a representative body for mtb (in case your’e not aware), which you could take your case to if you wish. They have good active relationships with the ROW people and other local bodies:
    LDMBA

    Flattyres
    Member

    Thanks for the info thekettle, I’ll let them know my thoughts. If they are sorting things out locally I would definitely prefer to pass my experiences on to them.

    Premier Icon justinbieber
    Subscriber

    This is a funny thread! I rode that trail last autumn, and I binned it on that exact same corner. Didn’t feel the need to complain to anyone though – I just had a laugh with my riding buddies who saw my crash, got up, and carried on with the ride.

    As far as Lake District repairs go, I think that’s one of the better ones. The cobbles aren’t super smooth, there are slight rollers you can have fun on, and you need to keep your wits about you as it can be slippery when wet.

    Quite why you’d complain because you were going too fast for a corner is beyond me. There could have been walkers coming up the hill blah blah blah… but this has probably already been said so I’ll stop repeating myself

    Premier Icon GavinB
    Subscriber

    So, to summarise, your mate and you were riding too fast, not able to stop in the space available and had a little spill? And that’s someone else’s fault is it?

    Q: Did you hear of any walkers, horses, 4×4 or trailbikes ending up in the same ditch?

    I’m guessing not, so it’s only a minority (of a minority) of trail users that are unable to cope with a bend in the track.

    FWIW, I’ve ridden that track many times, in both directions, before and after the most recent repairs, and most times either meet walkers or a couple of 4×4 coming the other direction, so tend to just cruise down it. It’s a pretty dull descent.

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