Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 55 total)
  • Starling bikes say, don’t buy a new bike
  • kayak23
    Full Member

    April 1st bike industry BS chat.

    sazmtb
    Free Member

    He’s discussing something that doesnt excist

    Yes there’s always releases of the shiniest latest and greatest but no once have I interpreted it the way Joe is implying

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    He shoots.

    He misses.

    Does “shiny thing” always make us faster, no. But if it wasn’t for development we’d all be riding rigid 26ers with 1.9″ tyres.

    airvent
    Free Member

    I’m not sure what the link to April fools day is.

    Also, I’m not sure many people are buying a bike for the reason he thinks, generally it’s because they become uneconomical to repair so get replaced due to our throwaway culture, or we just fancy a change or something new and shiny. Is it ever really just because you think it’ll make you faster? Nobody I know buys a bike for that reason, especially not mountain bikers.

    Stevelol
    Free Member

    Excellent video, more brands should be open about this point of view as it’s extremely pertinent, anyone that plays guitar also should take this view point!

    The slight flip side is if you get super excited to ride your bike when you’ve bought a new bit of kit then there’s nothing wrong with buying stuff you don’t ‘need’, even more so if that makes the difference between riding and not riding. However like the video says people should understand that most of the time the bit of kit won’t give them any more performance, maybe just a bit of inspiration.

    thenorthwind
    Full Member

    New bikes and bits might not make you any better or faster, but they often make it more enjoyable, which for most people is the point. One he seems to have missed.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    New bikes and bits might not make you any better or faster, but they often make it more enjoyable, which for most people is the point.

    A fair point.

    easily
    Free Member

    He’s making a good point. We’ve all done what he’s talking about.

    When a group of cyclists get together and talk it’s usually about equipment, not technique. Proper training and practise would improve our riding, but it’s easier to buy a new set of wheels.
    Weight is another – we all know those who will spend hundreds, thousands even, to save a few ounces. Cutting out a few biscuits would make a bigger difference, but that takes a bit of discipline.

    I could buy the best bike in the world and it wouldn’t make me a much better rider. If I got out and trained more it would improve my skills vastly.

    I’d still like the best bike though 🙂

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Does “shiny thing” <em style=”box-sizing: border-box; –tw-border-spacing-x: 0; –tw-border-spacing-y: 0; –tw-translate-x: 0; –tw-translate-y: 0; –tw-rotate: 0; –tw-skew-x: 0; –tw-skew-y: 0; –tw-scale-x: 1; –tw-scale-y: 1; –tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; –tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; –tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; –tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); –tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; –tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, ‘Helvetica Neue’, Arial, ‘Noto Sans’, sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, ‘Segoe UI’, ‘Apple Color Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Emoji’, ‘Segoe UI Symbol’, ‘Noto Color Emoji’; background-color: #eeeeee;”>alwaysmake us faster, no. But if it wasn’t for development we’d all be riding rigid 26ers with 1.9″ tyres.

    instead we are riding rigid 29ers with 1.9″ tires and drop bars ?

    monkeyboyjc
    Full Member

    I completely get what Joe is saying, but….. Part of bikes is the ‘affordable’ Ferrari thing. The sport/activity is comparatively easy and affordable to gain equipment that only pros use in other mechanical sports.

    Shinny things don’t make us go any faster, but that not the entire point.

    The best upgrade to your riding £ for £ will always be a skills day, no matter what level of rider you are. After that it’s just time in the saddle and practice.

    jmatlock
    Free Member

    Is this not just a rehash of the old Patagonia advertisement “Don’t buy this coat”

    They sold loads of those coats they told people not to buy.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    Scotroutes made me laugh. I’ve only just (partially) departed the world of 26” two days ago, now in 29 and 27.5 land.

    mildred
    Full Member

    I can’t see a lot wrong with what he’s saying.

    squirrelking
    Free Member

    generally it’s because they become uneconomical to repair

    When? Barring catastrophic failure I’ve never owned a bike that was beyond economical repair. Especially one for mincing about the countryside rather than commuter abuse.

    LAT
    Full Member

    Does “shiny thing” always make us faster, no. But if it wasn’t for development we’d all be riding rigid 26ers with 1.9″ tyres.

    but developments made the bikes better. He mentions that better parts make bikes better, but that doesn’t make you a better ride. It may make you able to descend faster or remain comfortable for longer, but you are not necessarily any better at riding bikes.  It’s a few hours since I watched his video, but I’m sure he is talking about being a better rider not riding faster.

    what he is saying is what makes you a better rider (as most people know) are skills training, physical conditioning, diet, sleep and not new components.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    but developments made the bikes better.

    👏

    And better bikes make us faster, more capable, more confident, more comfortable etc. That’s why folk buy “better” bikes. I don’t know anyone who expected to be a “better” rider because they bought a new bike or component. As far as I can see the whole premise of the video is based on an incorrect assumption about why folk buy new bikes.

    LAT
    Full Member

    I think you’re wilfully missing the point he’s making.

    edit:

    That point being that if you work on yourself you will be faster, more confident and all that a modern bike will make you over a 30 year old bike (or even 5 year old).

    I think you’d be surprised how many people buy a new bike or fork thinking that it will make them better.

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    I know of a shop who had to politely tell a customer that they wouldn’t be refunding his new bling custom build on the basis that he got his arse handed to him by his mates on its maiden ride…

    LAT
    Full Member

    Another point he’s making is that if you buy a well made durable bike that works well and you look after it you won’t need a new bike because the anti squat is 4% improved.

    im sure there are many folk trading in their old Specialized Epics for the new one because it’s better and they hope that they will be better when they ride it.

    robertajobb
    Full Member

    The bike industry needs to stop forcing obsolescence onto bike owners.

    I’ve got shut of 2 bikes recently. Both 26″.  Both 3x chainsets.  One 8 speed one 9 speed.  Both road style  QR hubs. Both 1 1/8″ headsets.  1 rim braked.

    Try getting  a replacement suspension fork that’s 1 1/8″ head tube, 9mm QR, 120mm travel.  Not a chance

    jameso
    Full Member

    “Don’t buy upgrades, ride up grades”?

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    “Don’t buy upgrades, ride up grades”?

    +1, but I’m too poor to have  alike button.

    Also, I’m not sure many people are buying a bike for the reason he thinks, generally it’s because they become uneconomical to repair so get replaced due to our throwaway culture

    Also not convinced.

    My road bike is achingly old fashioned now, if it was any older it would have a quill stem (the previous model did).  Every few years it needs a major overhaul because something breaks or wears out and that precipitates stripping the whole thing and finding loads of notchy bearings and suspiciously worn parts.  And every time it gets cheaper because NOS Dura Ace 10s no longer exists or the supposedly proprietary (it was not 24mm in the same way DUB is not 29mm)  cripplingly expensive FSA BBs end up in the bargain bin (£30 for a £260 BB!).

    Obviously if I wanted to justify a new bike then …… it really needs new aero wheels, and there’s no point buying rim brake carbon wheels now as they’ll be too narrow so won’t be future proof, and really I should upgrade to 24-speed dura ace as 10s isn’t available anymore, and that means discs anyway, which means a new frame, and, and ……

    People might tell themselves that it was “uneconomical to repair” to justify something new and shiny, but it’s probably very rarely the case. And then there’s the triggers broom defense.  My singlespeeds have always shared parts going back at least a decade.  But I’m fairly sure there’s no original parts left, and only the bottle cage remains of the 2nd iteration 😂.  All the bikes/parts were sold on though so are probably still being ridden.

    I do have a new-ish FS bike though, I needed a break from niche bikes for a bit!

    hatter
    Full Member

    The bike industry needs to stop forcing obsolescence onto bike owners.

    If enough people were still willing to buy those items at sustainably profitable prices the brands would still range them.

    No wheel or fork brand is going to spend good money putting 26″ wheels or straight steerer forks back into production if they had to sell the last batch at a loss to get shot of them.

    airvent
    Free Member

    My road bike is a 500 quid decathlon one, once the wheels die and the groupset needs replaced it’ll cost 80% of the original purchase price to replace those elements, or I could just replace the whole bike and take advantage of every component being new for slightly more money which makes a lot more sense.

    My full suspension bike has had new wheels, a new drivetrain, suspension rebuilds, new brakes, new rotors, several dropper posts, and the the rear shock is a size that basically isn’t available anymore. The forks are non-boost spacing 180mm fox forks which also don’t seem available now either new or used, and even if they are they’re close to £1,000.00 so the bike will likely get replaced at that point.

    Does that explain?

    footflaps
    Full Member

    I don’t really see the problem, every time I buy a new bike my old one either gets sold or given to someone for whom it’s an upgrade and carries on being ridden.

    With the exception of a broken SS Cannondale frame, don’t think I’ve binned a bike since the 80s…..

    Daffy
    Full Member

    Do people really buy a bike/kit as they think it’ll make them a better rider?

    I tend to buy something I think will feel better/different…not sure that’s the same thing.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Do people really buy a bike/kit as they think it’ll make them a better rider?

    Pretty sure I’d be faster uphill on a chipped e-bike….

    ashhh
    Full Member

    Having worked in a bikeshop for ~5 years, I can 100% say that people bought lots of bikes and kit to be faster (usually road), or perhaps perform better on more difficult terrain (progressive geo etc). I always used to advise people straight up, that its a case of diminishing returns, so a new rider upgrading from a 400 quid hardtail with cable discs and a junk fork,  to a 1200 pound hardtail will be lots faster. But going from the 1200 hardtail to a 2.5k hardtail ain’t going to make anything like that difference.

    Going from a 4k roadbike to an 8k roadbike will make naff all difference.

    Building in obsolescence is part of the industry. But so is innovation. Are my boost forks noticeably stiffer…not in my less than capable hands. for the majority of riders is 1×12 objectively better than 2×10….. Probably not. But are droppers helpful, and is modern geometry more confidence inspiring…absolutley.

    Obviously calling something ‘enduro’ makes you go faster tho.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Having worked in a bikeshop for ~5 years, I can 100% say that people bought lots of bikes and kit to be faster (usually road), or perhaps perform better on more difficult terrain (progressive geo etc).

    Exactly. That’s not the same as saying that they thought it made them a “better” rider.

    I think there are two viewpoints here. The first is that the bike-buying public are naive fools being manipulated by some nefarious bike industry into parting with their hard-earned cash for no benefit. The second is that folk actually just want to have more fun and will upgrade to bikes and components designed to let them do so. Of course, for folk who believe in #1, it’s just other people that are fooled, not them.🙄

    sazmtb
    Free Member

    @tomhoward .amazing what people will make up

    sirromj
    Full Member

    I think there are two viewpoints here.

    I think there’s probably more, and some of them may not be so ridiculous!

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Going from a 4k roadbike to an 8k roadbike will make naff all difference.

    This has to be the most clear-cut case of diminishing returns in the industry IMO.

    Once you have Ultegra (or is it 105 these days?), decent wheels and a carbon frame what is there to improve?

    At least in MTB you can target specific parts of the bike which could significantly change the ride feel, e.g. posh suspension.

    But TBH my Starling isn’t particularly faster with it’s EXT shock than with a RockShox Deluxe. It’s slower uphill actually.

    BruceWee
    Full Member

    I think I’ve said it before but I reckon the 80/20 rule generally applies, ie, you can get 80% of the perform by spending 20% of the price.

    Of course, you have to define what you mean by performance before you can decide whether that is the case or not.

    I think people don’t always know exactly what performance improvement they are looking for when they buy a new bike but I’m fairly certain spending 5 times the cost of your current bike is unlikely to make you 20% faster.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    I think I’ve said it before but I reckon the 80/20 rule generally applies, ie, you can get 80% of the perform by spending 20% of the price.

    I would have been doubtful about that in the past, but with top-end bikes passing £10k and discounts aplenty again… yep.

    Daffy
    Full Member

    The bike industry needs to stop forcing obsolescence onto bike owners.

    I’ve got shut of 2 bikes recently. Both 26″.  Both 3x chainsets.  One 8 speed one 9 speed.  Both road style  QR hubs. Both 1 1/8″ headsets.  1 rim braked.

    Try getting  a replacement suspension fork that’s 1 1/8″ head tube, 9mm QR, 120mm travel.  Not a chance

    I’m not sure about enforced obsolesce being a choice.  I think it’s the diffusion of “standards” that often makes it difficult for providers to, well, provide for smaller markets.  There’s now a bewildering array of BB, Axle and Headset and wheel sizes along with 3 different disc brake “standards” and two rotor types – the number of possible combinations is almost endless.  Perhaps like the EU enforcing USB C, we could see something similar for the bike industry in years to come.

    Olly
    Free Member

    a level further down the rabbit hole.

    Who says faster is better?

    Faster is less time spent riding, and more time waiting?

    better to be steady slow and get more riding in?

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Faster is less time spent riding, and more time waiting?

    Or more distance covered in the same elapsed time.

    razorrazoo
    Full Member

    This has to be the most clear-cut case of diminishing returns in the industry IMO.

    Once you have Ultegra (or is it 105 these days?), decent wheels and a carbon frame what is there to improve?

    Read the blurb and most of the gains (usually measured in watts) of things such as aero frames, wheels, bars etc take place at speeds well beyond what mere mortals can achieve.  Road uberbike frames are often available in a lower grade carbon which weighs not a lot more at half the cost (eg Specialized SL8, Cannodale SuperSix etc).

    105/Ultegra/SRAM Force are all sorted groupsets, top end stuff is really just minor weight saving and cafe bragging rights.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    Read the blurb and most of the gains (usually measured in watts) of things such as aero frames, wheels, bars etc take place at speeds well beyond what mere mortals can achieve. 

    Yep, I think it was a podcast discussing the new Giant TCR where they said something like “Giant say it saves 4 watts at 50kmph” 😀

    Similar with all that internal cabling, which I just think creates an odd-looking bike with an ugly stem.

    I guess roadies need something to spend their £££s on though.

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