Which is exactly the reason why I think the de jure motorway limit should be raised, given hot_fiat’s suggestion of a de facto 85 limit at present. The current situation discredits speed limits in general and results in people ignoring speed limits which matter a lot more. What on earth would be wrong with an 80mph limit which is enforced?

GrahamS’s argument is fallacious, given that motorways are the safest roads and raising the limit would likely make little or no difference to the total injury rate (the majority of motorway deaths occur in conditions where 70 is too fast). Given that a higher motorway speed limit might result in lower speeds elsewhere on more dangerous roads there’s actually a chance of it lowering the overall death rate.

GrahamS’s argument is fallacious, given that motorways are the safest roads

You’re making exactly the same statement: motorways are the safest roads, so we can afford to make them less safe.

Risk Compensation.

Given that a higher motorway speed limit might result in lower speeds elsewhere on more dangerous roads there’s actually a chance of it lowering the overall death rate.

There is that chance. Conversely there is a chance that people might get more accustomed to driving at higher speeds on motorways and find a 20 or 30 limit interminably slow by comparison.

You’re making exactly the same statement: motorways are the safest roads, so we can afford to make them less safe.[/quote]

Nice snippage. The next bit was actually “raising the limit would likely make little or no difference to the total injury rate (the majority of motorway deaths occur in conditions where 70 is too fast).” We’ve already done the argument about making something which isn’t dangerous a bit more dangerous doesn’t make it dangerous – the difference between 70 and 80 in good conditions is that.

The other question of course is why not 60 in that case, or 50, or a bloke with a red flag? You could make exactly the same argument regarding raising the speed limit from any of those points – it’s a fallacious argument. What’s so magical about 70?

Conversely there is a chance that people might get more accustomed to driving at higher speeds on motorways and find a 20 or 30 limit interminably slow by comparison.

People are already used to driving a lot faster than 30 on motorways. Do you really think 80 is likely to make 20 feel any more pedestrian than 70 does? This is about respect for speed limits.

Of course you’re also ignoring the point that people already do 80 on motorways and I’m not actually suggesting increasing the speed people travel at, simply making it legal to do 80 and enforcing the limit harder above that point.

Tyre compounds have come on massively in the last 30 years, the coeff of friction when braking is much higher now, esp in the wet.

This is all very true, the unfortunate thing is the amount of cars that have tyres that are either on the legal limit or illegal is shocking, I must see at least one a week that has cords exposed. The amount of cheap budget tyres fitted is amazing as well, when you think that is all that is keeping you in contact with the road, the budget tyre in the main has far less grip than it’s more expensive counterpart when it’s wet/cold.

Nice snippage. The next bit was actually “raising the limit would likely make little or no difference to the total injury rate (the majority of motorway deaths occur in conditions where 70 is too fast).”

I didn’t snip the next bit to alter what you were saying. I just disagree with it. The injury rate would be altered.

You say the majority of incidents happen where 70 was too fast (Source?) – but if those people currently drive at the 70 limit with no regard for conditions then they’ll do exactly the same for an 80 or 90 limit – meaning higher impact speeds and more injury/death. (Which is what I mean by the physics not changing).

We’ve already done the argument about making something which isn’t dangerous a bit more dangerous doesn’t make it dangerous – the difference between 70 and 80 in good conditions is that.

It doesn’t make it “dangerous”. Agreed. It does make it “a bit less safe” though.

The other question of course is why not 60 in that case, or 50, or a bloke with a red flag? You could make exactly the same argument regarding raising the speed limit from any of those points – it’s a fallacious argument. What’s so magical about 70?

We do already drop the speed limit of some particularly dangerous sections (not that many people pay attention to it).

There’s nothing magical about 70 of course, it’s just the status quo. Any shift from a limit which is currently working well for us should be considered properly in terms of financial and safety costs and benefits, not simply based on “cars have got better, so lets make it faster”.

I’m not actually suggesting increasing the speed people travel at, simply making it legal to do 80 and enforcing the limit harder above that point.

Yeah I’d be in favour of that. Make it an 80 limit, but strictly enforce it with average speed cameras on all entry/exit slip roads. I suspect that would be an overall reduction in speed on many motorways and would also be incredibly unpopular.

The trouble with an 80 limit is that there are a lot of people who rather thoughtlessly drive to the limit rather than the conditions and instead of being at 66-72mph (taking some speedo error into account) they’re gong to be going 10-12mph faster.

This will magnify the speed differential to the groups of vehicles which are speed limited below that and because of the generally poor standard of driving and pure traffic density* the UK now suffers from, it could cause a significant increase in accidents just from that development.

I used to think that 80-85 would be much better but now I’m pretty sure that the current situation works just fine as it saves fuel, stress levels and gives the sanctimonious something to froth over.

* I’ve never been so scared driving as I was coming back from Morzine a couple of years ago. Having had a fairly blissful drive through Northern France’s dual track motorways I was confronted by the M20-M25 just after rush hour. Really struck home how overcrowded our roads are and how aggressive and discourteous everyone is.

G

The French seem to do OK with a 80mph speed limit.

In terms of casualties, UK roads are safer than France

(4.3 deaths per billion-km versus 6.3 in France)

I never suggested that those deaths were happening because people were doing 70 when that was too fast – the most obvious large scale incidents I can think of the speeds were a lot lower than that. A higher speed limit would make no difference at all to them.

A quick google found http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15608217 – of their list of major incidents all of them involve either speed limited vehicles or poor weather conditions.

There’s nothing magical about 70 of course, it’s just the status quo. Any shift from a limit which is currently working well for us should be considered properly in terms of financial and safety costs and benefits, not simply based on “cars have got better, so lets make it faster”.

We can afford not to make them safer then?

Which is completely irrelevant. How many of those deaths were on 80 limit roads?

Brilliant, I love topics like this, it’s like TJ is still with us. So far off topic as to be a series of opposing rants. The OP wondered if a speed awareness course is worth it and the answer always has to be yes. At best you’ll learn something about moderating your speed or not getting caught, at worst you’ll not want to put yourself through that amount of tedium again. I myself, am an appalling driver, who usually got caught speeding every four years just as the points were due to come off from the last time. Since the course, incident free, however I’ve found the best way to moderate your speed is to tow a caravan, that works a treat but you do get a lot of people going past you really fast!

I’ve never been so scared driving as I was coming back from Morzine a couple of years ago. Having had a fairly blissful drive through Northern France’s dual track motorways I was confronted by the M20-M25 just after rush hour.

Hah.. so innocent…