Oh balls I thought I’d edited that right.

Day 2 was today.

I didn’t leave it for 24hrs. I left it for about 8hrs.

makes sense now 🙂

what about my starter TLDR above? ^^^

does your original fridge starter live in the fridge non-stop? so you take it out fridge, remove 30g for starter 2, top up 30g, back in fridge til next loaf?

or do you remove from fridge, leave overnight and remove 30g, top up and fridge?

or do you remove from fridge, take 30g for new starter, top up and leave overnight to grow, then fridge it again?

TLDR: do you ever let the original starter grow at room temp at any time?

Right.

I have been putting it back in fridge right away. But I thought about it a bit after this discussion and decided it would be a good plan to leave it out for a day after feeding it then put it back in fridge again.

I was thinking about when I made kimchi how that doesn’t ferment once you put it in the fridge. And that’s what sourdough starter is doing. So it does need time out of the fridge to ferment and grow and become stronger.

I think you’re right. Good answer.

A quick and easy way to check the starter is to bung a spoonful into some room temperature water, if it floats then there is enough CO2 in it for baking with apparently. I learnded it on the internets.

I learnded it on the internets.

I learned that on my £160 course but had forgotten until you told me again there.

ok, i know you got your starter from your course brant….

anyone else, whats your method of making the starter? theres plenty of advice out there on the net, but just curious if you all do it the same or not.
im going for the 100% rye starter, and aim to just keep 100g like brant.

what measures and method would you use each day to end up with that?

thanks

It’s so long ago I forget but it’s a very basic method add equal amounts flour and water each day discarding half each time you add the new lot. Now mine’s established I feed it 75g of each either once a week whether I’m baking or not (but don’t bother discarding any) or feed it about 8 hours before baking and then again before I put it back in the fridge.

Inspired by this discussion I did a bit more research and baked a very successful loaf with big holes at the weekend. I’ll post what I found out and pics on the other thread later.

I got mine off a friend, but having recently discovered Tartine, I’d go with this method for yours Tartine starter. This method of baking is already looking pretty good for me (3 loaves 2 reasonably successful, 1 overproved as I left it way too long.

well ive tried building a rye starter for a week and its gone to sh1t, dunno why. i thought id got my measurements wrong to start with as it was far too thick, so i added a little more water each day until it was the same consistency as the old white flour starter. but….. no, it stinks awful and ive never had any rise from it.

so this morning i binned it and started again. and as before, its really thick, i dont believe its fluid enough to be able to measure any growth, its too solid.

i went 50g of both rye wholewheat flour and water. is the rye flour supposed to be noticeably more dense then?

Have to say that the last two times I tried to make a new rye starter, it went bad and I had to chuck it. Strange as most “gurus” say that rye is the flour with the most natural yeasts in so the starter should be easier to make. Having said that I still have an old rye starter that I seems to be able to resurrect every few weeks out of the fridge. I would try a couple of things
1. make the starter at room temperature (or even a bit lower) so stop some of the evil bugs taking over
2. just use the white starter you already have?
3. Use the white starter as a base and add a bit of rye and water over a few days – that may eventually get you to a full rye starter.

My rye starter is a bit more solid but when it really gets going it has more gas in than the white starter and trebles in size when fed.

Good luck

Yes 50 50 and it will be very thick but once it’s active it will puff up in the jar. Are you removing half and discarding each day before adding fresh? Keeping it in a warm place loosely covered not air tight?

i dont have a white starter, i was just going to try sourdough from scratch again using the rye starter thats been recommended ^^^

yes, removing half and discarding, jars kept at room temp with the seal of the kilner jar removed.

right, my second bash at a rye starter seems to have progressed well enough, it rises a fair bit, its been about a week, so im ready to start the ‘brant loaf’, with different measures as i dont want two loaves….

so…..can i just go over it to make sure ive got this right?

My recipe is dead easy though it takes 2 days and it’s a tinned loaf not a free form nonsense one.

MORNING DAY 1, Put 30g of starter in a bowl with 30g of warm water and 30g of RYE flour. Cover and leave somewhere for 24hrs or so.

Feed your starter with 15g of water and 15g of rye flour, give it a stir, leave it out for the day and put it back in fridge that night.

MORNING DAY 2. Then mix in another 200g of VERY GOOD WHITE BREAD flour and 200g of warm water, and leave somewhere warm for another 8hrs.

EVENING DAY 2. Mix in another 500g of VERY GOOD WHITE BREAD flour and 500g of water, 10g of salt, stick it in oiled tins, dust the top WITH RYE FLOWER, leave for 2hrs, then bake on hot as **** for 15mins, then 210deg for 15mins. BAKE UNTIL INTERNAL TEMPERATURE IS 95DEG C.

DON’T FORGET THE SALT.

ive edited the 24 hr mistake to correctly show 8 hrs on day 2, and leaving the starter out for a day too, so this will be my method….

MORNING DAY 1 – same
MORNING DAY 2 – same
EVENING DAY 2 – im thinking mix 300g flour and 300g water for a smaller loaf. apart from that the same. ive bought a loaf tin to chuck it in rather than shaping, same as brant, altho i havent got a le creuset, just a bog standard, non-stick loaf tin.

ill also stick some boiling water in the bottom of the oven whilst its hotting up, for some steam action when the loaf goes in.

must also remember to slash the top.

can i just ask how youre mixing it on each occasion please? yes the initial mix will probs be with a wooden spoon say, but when we add in the extra flour/water on day 2, is this still with a spoon, or will it have started ‘proving’ and need to be ‘folded’ in?

ill start this all off with day 1 in the morning.

Sorry. Missed that.

Here’s another shitty over hydrated cheating tinned loaves.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8GTGdnCdWgpMrAEb9

Started yesterday morning with 30/30/30

Bumped up this morning with 300/300

Then tonight with 500/500 into the tins for 2hrs. Then baked, this evening at 240 for 17, then 200 for about 25 until internal temp is 95deg.

well ive now baked two further loaves. the starter seems lively enough…..

it produced this after 24 hrs starter + 8 hrs proving.

however, i always seem to forget something, this time it was the salt! 😀 so, i tried to improvise by mixing it in once it was in the loaf tin. turned out shit, lumps of salt in the finished loaf, but the crumb looked ok. and the weird thing was, the loaf lasted waaaaay longer than any others, but the texture was a bit ‘crumpet-like’ if you know what i mean, a bit slimy and rubbery?

ah well, onto todays loaf.
all went as expected, it doesnt seem right to me tho to start mixing more flour/water into the mix when its been sat 8 hrs, it just feels like im breaking everything up thats been forming. ill stick with the programme tho brant 🙂
so….. 2 more hours in an oiled bread tin and i get a sloppy mixture as expected with 100% hydration.

i got this lovely looking loaf.

however, as with all my loaves done this way, i get a soggy bottom.

last time it dried out overnight, so im hoping this will be the same. im thinking it may be something to do with the oiled tin? all the moisture seems to gather at the bottom and when i take the loaf out the bottom of the tin is wet. i only oil it lightly.

i havent cut it yet, ill do that in the morning, but ive got a question in the meantime.
all of these loaves feel heavy to hold. common sense says it can only weigh the same as the weight of flour and water, but as theres more water in the mix then itll be heavier. now hydration is a good thing i think, the wetter the better. but doesnt that just make for a heavy, stodgy loaf?

ill post up a pic in the morning when ive sliced it. looks good but the ‘proof’ will be in the taste and texture 🙂

The crumb looks good on your 1st one if it’s slimy though maybe it needed longer but a lower temperature so it doesn’t get too brown on top. I would say the texture is generally a little rubbery but not unpleasantly so.
Second one looks great on the outside. Did you slash the top? Soggy bottom is strange never had that with tin or dutch oven. You did take it out of the tin as soon as it was out of the oven?

Homemade sourdough will always be quite dense/heavy unless your an expert but i find using a tin causes it to be more dense. In the dutch oven it recreates a bakers steam oven and you get loads of oven spring making a lighter loaf. Another thing i found was making a smaller loaf that it was easier to handle and got a lighter loaf. I think a pro baker gets a really light loaf through their kneading and shaping techniques.

Did you slash the top?

i told you i always forget something, this time it was the slashes 😀

but….. i remembered last time yet because the mixture is so wet, it doesnt actually slash, just closes over straight away as theres no real structure to it, its just sloppy.

and i took it out the tin after about half hour. you reckon that may contribute to soggy bottom?

Are you slavishly following a recipe?
If its too wet put less water in. If you follow bakers % measures I think the liquid content of the starter should count towards total hydration.
You also need to take account of the flour you are using as some need more/less water than others.
I find spelt always goes dry so needs more water.
Try a longer slower proof. The slashes should be into a skin that has formed on the outside which is why you knead and shape by stretching the ball of dough and tucking under unless you are making no knead style bread?

Are you slavishly following a recipe?

yes, brants no-knead, no faff 50/50 flour/water recipe (inc starter) from above ^^^

works okay for that bad boy, im having less success. he got it from a sourdough course tho, so its a bonafide recipe.

Leaving your loaf in the tin for 30 mins after baking is definitely why you have a soggy bottom! It needs to go straight onto a cooling rack. I use the one from inside my microwave. I think if you want a lighter nicer loaf you need to try a different recipe and a dutch oven!

Where is the heat coming from in the oven?
Is it overhead, sides,bottom or all three?
Have you tried a thermometer in the loaf to check temperature internally?
Cant remember offhand but should be around 95 C +(?)

Leaving your loaf in the tin for 30 mins after baking is definitely why you have a soggy bottom!

noted, thanks.

I think if you want a lighter nicer loaf you need to try a different recipe and a dutch oven!

why would the loaf actually ‘feel’ lighter? surely its dependant on the weight of flour and water? so itll always weigh the same, but just be larger if its more aerated maybe? dunno…
and yes to the dutch oven, id love one. there were plenty in tk maxx when i went looking, but none ‘loaf shaped’.

Where is the heat coming from in the oven?
Is it overhead, sides,bottom or all three?
Have you tried a thermometer in the loaf to check temperature internally?
Cant remember offhand but should be around 95 C +(?)

pretty sure its just from the back. no thermometer, no.

thanks

Been following this thread as I’ve occasionally dabbled in sourdough over the past few months, with marginally successful results (nice bread, certainly edible, but a bit too dense and not really what I was looking for).

I decided to up my starter game and followed (most of) the instructions for starter maintenance on The Perfect Loaf, witch much more attention to detail.

I messed the dough bit up a bit – scaled the proportions of flour to match the weight of my levain, but ended up chucking WAY more flour in to make it remotely knead-able. Rose it overnight (which was probably too long) and proved it for a an hour or so this morning. Shaped it clumsily into a batard and a boule.

The boule came out like this, which I’m pretty happy with:

I’ll cut into it when I’ve stopped admiring its crust.

The batard is a bit dense, but definitely better than previous efforts.

The key takeaway for me has been making sure you make your dough when the levain’s at its peak – I think this makes all the difference.

make your dough when the levain’s at its peak

The tartine approach is drive by this as well, if the starter isn’t bubbly, then you don’t bake.

For reference sadex, I’m also getting crumpet-like loaves, they toast really well though so I’m ok with it. I do need to bake again with a lower water ratio though, I poured my last loaf into the casserole dish after the second prove. I could not get it to retain it’s shape at all!

Well yes by lighter i meant less dense! More air holes and a higher rise. A loaf can be any shape. Most cast iron pots will be round which makes a nice domed loaf.
They look ace Northwind. I’ve not baked for several weeks as been really hectic but have fed my starter once a week and may throw together some flatbreads tomorrow evening with the xs of starter I’ve now got.

well, i think im going to leave the bread, even when ive had a loaf on the side, nobodys really eating it, so it just goes to waste. however, im loving the sourdough pizzas im making, and so are the family.
the good thing about this is its waaaaay more forgiving. ive messed up the dough the last 2 times, but still had good pizzas from them.

f’rinstance, yesterday i tried following this recipe……

Sourdough Pizza Dough and Recipes

not to the letter, slightly different flour, but i worked to the timings. i was well pleased with myself, the dough looked exactly like the pics, i could spin and pull the dough on the worktop to tighten it, put it in the fridge, the divided doughs all looked like the pics too, but…… when it came to make the pizzas and i lifted each one out of the tray, they were just a gloopy mess! stuck to my hands, to each other, i didnt think id be able to use it, but, by chucking a bit more flour on them, rolling them into a ball again, i managed to get them ‘disc-shaped’ somehow, and make lovely pizzas. probably cos nobody knew how good the dough could have been rather than any skill on my part!! 😀

the recipe i followed ^^^ said to leave it for a final 6 hour prove. i started to do that, then thought ‘they look ready now’ after 4 hrs, so stuck them in the fridge, as it says once you do that you could keep them in for days if need be, the fridge slows the proof right down. i think they were ready earlier cos of the heat yesterday, but considered that and thought id done well. but……. the sticky mess at the end i assume means they were actually waaaay overproved, is that right?

again, im wondering if a crap starter may have caused this, i dont know? i took an offshoot tho and mixed with more flour water and left a few hours, but if it was crap to start with then maybe i was destined for it never to produce good dough?

any of you making home-made pizzas too? sourdough or otherwise?

i may have to make a few with bog standard yeast for a bit, get the hang of it, then swap over to sourdough to see what the difference is…..

Haven’t done yet as can’t be bothered to wait that long for the sake of a pizza. Highly doubt it’s your starter that’s the problem that’s just flour and water but will be technique of working the dough/timings. With bread making you need to learn to feel when the dough is right and gage timings not just follow a recipe to the letter. Like you said temperatures are very high at the moment and things will be moving far quicker. Also the amount of water you add can vary with each flour/age of flour/how it is stored. What temp is your fridge at? Needs to be pretty cold to slow it down properly.

Weirdly did pizzas for the first time this weekend, branched a small starter out and took it to a friend’s. Made the dough in a day based very roughly on the perfect loaf recipe above.

Didn’t have the right type of flour or enough time, but still managed to come out with pretty good results. I should have stretched the dough further for the actual bases, but they tasted and looked good. It helped having a friend’s roccbox (or whatever it’s called) to cook them on.

Does it matter what temperature the water used for the starter is? Both initially getting it going and for subsequent feedings?

eh, not really. If you think about it, the starter’s going to be sat there for days if not weeks, so as long as the water’s not too hot and not too cold, it’ll be influenced more by the ambient room temperature than anything else. I just go for room temperature water for the starter.

When baking I use warm water, to try to speed up the rise a little.

Okay thanks nicko. Starter is one of the various things on my “lockdown to do list”.

Righto, bugger it, OP is finally ready to have a go at this. 🙂

In the spirit of ‘use what you have’ I’m starting it with plain old plain flour.

Question, my 1kg jar is proving too small for this, can I split into 2, and just half the feed amounts for each kilner?.

How much starter do you have??

Mine, although it is a rye starter, is in a small plastic tub, and only has about 100g of flour in it…

If it’s a wheat starter and you are feeding it every day, but not using it, then either Chuck some away, you don’t need it all, of make some stuff with it. I don’t think I ever had that much starter even when I was baking a couple of times a week!

But in answer to your question, yes you can…

Thanks, yeah I need to dump some of it. I’ve split into 2 kilner jars, after 3 days I had about 600g of starter, 100g each of water and flour each day.

@Nobeerinthefridge – once it’s alive you can replace the feed in your starter, i.e. drop out most of the starter and add back in the new feed. There are loads of uses for the stuff you remove, from pizza dough, to the best pancakes I’ve had.

Glad you have flour for it at the moment, I have heaps of one specific type of flour (bought 25kg from a bakery earlier in the year), but no plain flour to refresh the starter with! Also, the flour I have lots of is quite rye heavy, so I need to practice getting loaves right with it. If anyone has a perfect Campillou ratio, please pass it on!

@nobeerinthefridge – you can also go down the route of the scrapings method which saves you from throwing out perfectly good starter and adding 100g flour per day.

Also check out firehouse bakery Instagram feed who were doing recipes with discarded starter.

Albanach, what’s the scrapings method?.

Edit, sorry, they was very lazy of me! That method looks right up my strasse, thanks Alba! 🙏🏻

@nobeerinthefridge the easiest recipe I’ve followed comes from here except I do a stretch and fold every 30 minutes for the first 2.5 hours.