Insure>MOT>tax>sell.  You can’t tax without a valid MOT.  You can’t drive without valid insurance.  You CAN drive to and from an MOT station without tax.

I own the entire solum in common with other proprietors

So all these other members of the public that live in the same block as you have access to the parking spaces? YOu have no named space that is marked up and belongs to you? I think you will find that it is the definition of public that is the issue here – the other residents are the public, and they have access….

“You CAN drive to and from an MOT station without tax.”

If the test is pre-booked.

ji – no it’s not.  That is an issue of whether it is “or other public place” in the road traffic act, the issue of it being a public road or not is as irc and I have said a matter of fact determined in by who pays for upkeep of the road surface (sweeping, gritting, painting, resurfacing)

Regardless, I think I’d still appeal with DVLA. What’s the worst that can happen, they decline your appeal?

Short of hiring a solicitor, almost no-one is going to have gone to the lengths we have to work it out. At best, it’s not clear. I’d suggest that it’s unreasonable to expect someone to start wading through and attempting to decipher pages of legalese and start cross-referencing three different acts; they’d go to gov.uk where it literally says “public road” not “public road or other public spaces such as a car park.”

Even if it’s technically correct, it feels a pretty shitty thing to do to uphold it. Like, “aha, gotcha!”

I wonder what **** of a neighbour reported me.

How long has it sat there without moving? If it’s a while, I can readily see someone either going “I wonder if it’s been abandoned and I should tell someone” or “that ****ing car is still there!”

@ji, don’t give up your day job…

“I wonder if it’s been abandoned and I should tell someone” or “that ****ing car is still there!”

or see that f***ing cyclist doesn’t pay road tax!

I’d still appeal with DVLA.

You can’t technically appeal it with dvla.  You can certainly try to appeal the better nature / discretion of the person who will deal with it but I think it’s like trying to convince someone at the police that your speeding was for a medical emergency- they’ll likely say “ok tell the judge”.

So all these other members of the public that live in the same block as you have access to the parking spaces? YOu have no named space that is marked up and belongs to you? I think you will find that it is the definition of public that is the issue here – the other residents are the public, and they have access….

Do you know the setup of the OPs car park? I mentioned in an earlier post that I lived in a flat with a residents’ car park. I owned a space. It was highlighted on the plan. It was a specific numbered space that was mine and only mine to use. The spaces had bollards and only I had the key to the one on my space. It wasn’t first come first served in whatever spaces were available. If the OP has a similar setup to me I’d be arguing the case. A random private contractor going round clamping SORN’d cars isn’t going to know the legal particulars of the land every car is parked on

Interesting about a public road being one maintained by the council. We’ve moved into a new build estate. The roads haven’t had their final layer of tarmac, ironworks are raised, so roads haven’t been adopted by the council yet.

But I’d still say it’s a public road.

Interestingly we’ve SORNd a car but it’s on the driveway, so definitely not a public road.

Regarding getting it towed by VOSA out of a parking space. I’d assume that as they could access the carpark i.e. no barriers, they assumed it was publicly accessible. Appreciate my driveway is publicly accessible, but just trying to get into their mindset.

Edit: Must say I feel like SORN is trying to fix a problem that doesn’t need solving. ANPR should know when a car has valid tax/VED. So don’t quite understand the need to state where and when a vehicle is SORNd.

I wonder about our street too.

There’s a tarmac road leading into the cul-de-sac.

At the end of that, there’s a monoblocked area, shared by four houses.

Then there are four driveways leading off from that.

I was told that the monoblock area isn’t adopted by the council, but the tarmac section is. That’s maybe backed up by the fact that when we put our bins out for collection, they have to go to the end of the tarmac. We do pay a factor for grass cutting of the communal lawned areas, tree maintenance and so on.

@jeffl

They are two different things. A public road is where the public have access. If any visitor or the postman etc could use it. Covers most road traffic like drink driving and careless driving. Usually the laws also apply in other public places like car parks. So your moniblock area is either a road or other public place.

For car tax it is a road maintained at public expense. So unadopted roads and public or private car parks can have SORNed cars on them.

There are grey areas. Is a layby a carpark for example. So DVLA can go ahead and ticket borderline cases and most people just pay up.

With reference to the are things better thread. There is a 40m long street in Glasgow (Kelvindale Buildings) which is or was unadopted despite the houses  in it being decades old. Back in the days when Glasgow had traffic wardens they were ticketing an untaxed car in the street. I worked out the same building as the wardens and a resident came to the front desk and complained. I confirmed with the council it was a private road. Then spoke to the head traffic warden, got the ticket cancelled, and ensured all the other traffic wardens were told it was a private road. Solved.

That was in the 1980s before everything was made more efficient and traffic wardens who worked as police employees were abolished.

@jeffl

The roads haven’t had their final layer of tarmac, ironworks are raised, so roads haven’t been adopted by the council yet.

In my area, the council’s generally don’t adopt the roads in new build estates. Whether that’s because the council don’t want the future maintenance overheads, or because the developer doesn’t want to design/build them to the relevant standards, or because the developer thinks they can make a profit by charging annual maintenance to the home owners, I don’t know.

It does mean that when someone dumps a caravan (or flytips) in the main access road, the council won’t remove it. Then it gets torched, and a few months later someone will tip it over and leave it upside down in the undergrowth, presumably until a few residents get together to pay for it’s removal, or the company maintaining the road get fed up of residents complaining about it!

You can’t technically appeal it with dvla. You can certainly try to appeal the better nature / discretion of the person who will deal with it

You must be able to appeal it with someone, surely? Because what if…

we’ve SORNd a car but it’s on the driveway,

… that got reported, clearly incorrectly? Oh dear how sad never mind, might as well pay up?

So the OP’s case I guess they need to approach the council to appeal it? Then either the council will agree and instruct DVLA to cancel it, or they’ll throw out the appeal and at least we’ll know officially that – in the eyes of one local council at least – this is what they believe to be true.

You can’t technically appeal it with dvla.

https://www.gov.uk/appeal-dvla-fine

Unless I’ve missed something, what do council have to do with this?

HOLY THREAD UPDATE BATMAN

I paid the fine after I’d written a response explaining the situation and my logic.

They are refunding the fee 😎

You must be able to appeal it with someone, surely? Because what if…

The DVLA have some (but not usually much) discretion (as Al’s reply shows).  You aren’t actually appealing it when you write to them but rather asking them to be human.  In common parlance people refer to that as an appeal but technically it is no such thing.  This allows pedantic folk to score points on the internet.  If you don’t accept the DVLA interpretation of the facts, your formal choice is to reject the fixed penalty notice and allow DVLA to take the matter to court.  If you don’t accept the decision of the court, THEN you would have the right of appeal (if you have deep enough pockets).  The reason pedants point out that writing to DVLA is not an appeal is DVLA are under no obligation to even read the letter, whereas the court (and ultimately the court of appeal) will listen to your argument before deciding.

They are refunding the fee

Al – that’s a win! (Well so long as refunding and closing the matter, not treating as a failure to accept wrongdoing and report to court!)

thanks @poly for your help

Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!

Yes, there are, and yes, they do, and I’ve seen them do it. It’s a van with cameras set up on all four corners of the roof, and they drive along slowly using ANPR.

My mates boss was talking about something like this when we were at a birthday dinner the business had put on for my mate last night. Not entirely sure of the details, I couldn’t hear all of the conversation, but John, the boss, was saying he’s being chased and threatened with a fine over a classic motorcycle he owns. Problem is, the bike is not only not on the road, it’s not in one piece, in fact it’s completely disassembled! I said he should just let them take him to court and turn up with the frame and a bunch of boxes and dump them on a table in the courtroom, let them sort it out.

I’ll try and get more details at the pub on Friday.