Turner Guy….. Charming, and perhaps says more about you than me.
if you actually think about my comment, I did not actually say I thought he was a disappointing human being, just simply that is possible to be one to many people, as shown on this thread, and yet successful in life. It isn’t binary

In reality being a “design genius” and producing a profitable passenger car have almost nothing in common. Myriad are the companies that got caught up in the romance of building a car only to have the stark reality of the shear size of the task bring them crashing back to the ground.

Lets face it, too many people concentrate on the fun bits, like the engine (or motors) and the performance, or the styling, but a modern passenger car is mostly dull. Its made up of tens of thousands of parts that are extremely complex and all necessary, and yet are the ones that very few people even think about. From door seals to windscreen demisting, bonnet catches to rear number plate lights and seat belt anchorages to coolant header tanks, a modern car is very, very, very tedious to develop. The existing OEs now have 50 or more years, and sometimes as many as 7 or 8 generations of any given model history to fall back on. They have proven supply chains, sign off criteria, parts networks and marketing departments all full of tens of thousands of very experienced, very industrious people.

The thought that somehow you could come into the market place fresh with a viable passenger car simply because you know a little bit about motors is about the same as me trying to build a space shuttle because i once took my toaster apart and fixed it.

I actually consulted to Dyson on the powertrain for this new car, and whilst the team of (very smart) engineers was doing a decent job in that department, it was pretty clear that overall the horse was somewhat riderless and lacking focus and direction. Without a confirmed business plan, it was, imo, always an extremely high risk exercise!

So dyson make highly engineered brightly coloured plastic household stuff,at very expensive prices,sold in high street stores and the internet,then decided to make a new car,something mainstream car makers do for a job every day,but nowadays car makers are sharing the same basic platform and putting a body on top,car makers also have the parts supply in local dealers,and local dealers who just sell that make of vehicle and trained staff to repair them.

Dyson have none of the above as yet, and would need to buy into a dealer network and supply chain,a very expensive proposition, so they tried to sell the concept of the car and nobody wanted it.

But theyve most probably developed enough of the car idea to sell bits onto other manufacturers.

“ UK taxpayers gave around £5 million to Dyson to support the electric car project that it scrapped this week, the company says.

James Dyson told staff yesterday that, while the firm had developed a “fantastic” car, it wasn’t commercially viable and he would be ending the project, which was launched in 2016. The electric car unit employs 500 people, who the company hopes to redeploy.

However, the project involved the UK government giving millions of pounds in funding. The firm told New Scientist that it had drawn down £5 million of a £16 million grant to support the project.

Dyson says the money was spent as intended, on research and development. A spokesperson says: “The funding we have received from the UK government is to support Dyson’s research and development of battery technologies. Our development of battery technology will not change in light of this announcement.”

However, government documents have previously shown the money was primarily destined to help development of an electric car.

“The government is funding Dyson to develop a new battery electric vehicle at their headquarters in Malmesbury, Wiltshire. This will secure £174m of investment in the area, creating over 500 jobs, mostly in engineering,” said the National Infrastructure Delivery Plan published in 2016.”

The only way you can possibly get into mainstream automotive manufacturing is if you have a genuine USP like Tesla did. That and seriously deep pockets. Dyson would have faced direct competition from both Tesla and the established players trying to catch up. He was 10 years too late to get it off the ground and didn’t have an obvious USP. Tesla struggled in the early days without any competition to speak of and is still only just keeping its head above water both financially and in production capacity. The chances of another start-up making it today are pretty remote – especially in the UK!

if you actually think about my comment, I did not actually say I thought he was a disappointing human being

I’ve looked and that is pretty much what you implied, not the rest of your excuse…

being a commercial and design ‘genius’ and being a disapointment as a human being are not mutually exclusive

no mention of different peoples perception

The chances of another start-up making it today are pretty remote – especially in the UK!

A lot of people said that before he went from pretty much nothing to one of the biggest domestic appliance manufacturers. Certainly worth a shot imo and even it didn’t pan out they (and we) will probably get quite a bit from it

The information derived from the development work on battery and high-performance electric motors will not be abandoned or wasted, Dyson’s high-speed electric motors used in his appliances, scaled for automotive use could bring all sorts of advantages in the future; not just in cars, but electric motorcycles and maybe even bicycles, and any new insights into battery technologies won’t go amiss either.
Moving manufacturing abroad annoyed lots of people, but like many industries before him, in particular the cycle industry, it’s become ever more difficult to mass-manufacture stuff in the West and keep it cheap, the east has a vast infrastructure directed specifically towards manufacturing items like vacuum cleaners, fans, etc.
Dyson kept the R&D at Malmesbury, and expanded it dramatically, in fact one of the factors that precipitated the manufacturing being moved abroad was Malmesbury Council’s refusal to allow the expansion of the factory, saying it would be detrimental to the visual appearance of the town! I believe he now employs more people in the town than when the factory was there.

A lot of people said that before he went from pretty much nothing to one of the biggest domestic appliance manufacturers. Certainly worth a shot imo and even it didn’t pan out they (and we) will probably get quite a bit from it

But he had a genuine USP with his bagless vacs. There was nothing like them on the market when he started.

But he had a genuine USP with his bagless vacs. There was nothing like them on the market when he started

And it was turned down by every major vacuum cleaner producer at the time.

The £5 million of taxpayer money really doesn’t look bad value. If you compare it to the various Innovate UK vehicle grants and projects for anything green / low carbon / lightweight then this has probably created more direct jobs (even if only for 3 years) and IP legacy than most.

Dyson send you bits out if they break.

I’ve never been able to test this with Numatic as my 25 year old ‘Henry’ just keeps on going.

Made in Somerset too.

Dyson are purely style over substance, not surprised they’re so popular on here

What vacuum cleaner for e-gravel bike camping?

I’ve never been able to test this with Numatic as my 25 year old ‘Henry’ just keeps on going.

Made in Somerset too.

Dyson are purely style over substance, not surprised they’re so popular on here

What vacuum cleaner for e-gravel bike camping?

Henrys may be reliable, but I’ve never been very impressed with their actual cleaning ability or filtering. Best one I’ve ever had for sheer cleaning power is a Miele upright and that is totally reliable too. I don’t particularly like Dyson corded vacs, but their current handheld cordless vacs are hard to beat for spot cleaning. We have a Dyson V8 and I can’t really fault it and it’s much improved over their earlier models.

The thing is the only really valuable elements for anyone in the EV market in the next few years are going to be new battery and charging technologies, Musk has already acknowledged this himself, it’s not so much about the cars it’s about flogging charging points, Dyson also knows this.

Personally I think this was a big part of the plan for him, develop some key IP that he can sell to the big auto makers. But actually developing and selling a whole car? Nah I don’t think that was the real plan, yeah he’s recruited a whole load of engineers and frankly wasted their time, possibly dented but he had to put on a show to access the funding, the government were always going to lap it up, what does it actually cost to develop a whole new vehicle platform? £4-500 million+?

So £15m in deeelopment grants was never going to score the UK the next mini or tesla…

I’m sure his products have been improved over the years, thats a good thing, because the early stuff was crap and I for one fell for it.

Was that the stuff that was manufactured in the UK? Interesting, isn’t it?

I had a dyson vacuum cleaner. It broke many times – nothing terminal just bits of plastic breaking off. However you could get spare parts which was good. Eventually it died after sucking up too much building muck

I now have a miele. It doesn’t break bits although I did kill it after five years of making it suck of builders dust without proper filters and bought another which I will look after better

So £15m in deeelopment grants was never going to score the UK the next mini or tesla…

their new hairdryer took £50 million to develop :

The new Dyson Supersonic hair dryer, which cost £50 million to develop

and £40 million on just the update to the cool fan :

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/06/dyson-silent-fan

So £15m in deeelopment grants was never going to score the UK the next mini or tesla…

No but neither was £2.5bn which he had planned to invest a very measly fraction of what VW have invested who already have the infrastructure.

The thing is the only really valuable elements for anyone in the EV market in the next few years are going to be new battery and charging technologies

Possibly, but there is the “Apple” effect too i.e. bringing it all together into a user friendly, desirable, one-stop product. Something Tesla achieved with their cars and Supercharger infrastructure (which I can say as a user is invaluable), while the mainstream manufacturers were really struggling. Tesla basically made EVs cool and convenient, rather than something you would have to tolerate. They didn’t just strap a battery and motor onto a conventional car, they looked at the whole motoring concept in a fresh way. Driving a Tesla is like stepping a full decade into the future in so many different ways beyond the fact that it’s an EV. OTA software updates, a user interface that isn’t like something out of the 90s, plus loads of other little details that you wouldn’t necessarily think about, but then wonder why nobody else thought of them before. Their rivals are still not there yet. Driving an iPace long distance is nowhere near as convenient and the user interface is just too fiddly, slow and cluttered and obviously pandering to legacy owners. Our 10 year old daughter could navigate the Tesla user interface seamlessly in just a few seconds, just like an iPad. Comparing current Tesla satnav and media player to my “modern” Porsche 911 system is a complete joke, so I do hope the Taycan is a lot better.

Investors are pumping the cash into Tesla because they can see their future potential. The “established” manufacturers are still way too invested in ICE tech to seriously flood the market with EVs over the next decade. It would be suicide as they currently depend on ICE sales for about 99% of their income. So for them EV is still more a PR/compliance exercise. Tesla don’t have any of this legacy baggage and that’s why they are so successful in the BEV market. They are still very much in the production ramp up stage with heavy capex on infrastructure, but unit profit margin is actually one of the highest in the industry. Driving a Model X for the last 2 years has been enough to convince me that ICE cars are now dead in the water and that Tesla has a bright future – they simply backed the right horse and fully committed to it. I reckon JLR is far more likely to go under than Tesla in the next decade.

This ^^

If it wasn’t for Tesla eating the incumbent OEM’s lunches we would still be at least 5 years away from a VW ID3 or Porsche Taycan. Musk realized that the two limiting factors for EV commercialization are charging infrastructure and battery manufacturing capacity so he invested in both.

If I had the money for a Taycan, which is probably a better car than the Model X or Model 3, I’d still buy a Tesla because of the charging infrastructure.

Tesla’s drive-train tech is also impressive. BMW took a Tesla apart and were shocked that Tesla were so far ahead of them.

As for Dyson. He hired plenty of senior motor industry pros so investment and production costs can’t have come as a surprise. I think he bet the farm on solid state battery tech and it has proven to be way harder to commercialize than he realized.

Mr Dyson was very pro European whilst he benefited from innovation grants and subsidies.

He turned against it when they brought in their new eco ratings for vacuums and they had to be under a certain Kw to be compliant.

He argued his machines should be allowed to be the Kw threshold as they didn’t use bags which offset the pollution caused by the extra power consumption.

This put Dyson cleaners well down the ‘league table’ of energy efficiency and he’s hated them ever since.

He’ll back whichever horse allows him to make the most profit…

^ That is so full of wrong.

Dyson have long since argued for lower power ratings. The argument was that bagged cleaners use more power when they are full of dust and clogged so the tests should reflect that. They have tried to push for them to be rated by suction rather than power input too which makes a lot of sense. Back in the day you’d see cleaners with “2kW motor!” as if was a plus rather than a sign of its inefficiency. Dyson have lead the way with efficient, low power motors and efficient air paths.

As an aside they also won the case on rating labels with EU last time I saw any news on it.

The only way you can possibly get into mainstream automotive manufacturing is if you have a genuine USP

Clive Sinclair did with the C5, but it was still never going to sell.

Tesla are held up as the gold standard of electric cars, but if you sit in one and a Merc of the same value they don’t half seem crap in comparison.

And if you say all the value is under the skin, take a look underneath one. The standard of welding, for instance, would not pass muster on the cheapest bike in Halfords.

It’s all marketing; distract the punter with the flappy doors and the big tv, and don’t let them spot how badly the bootlid fits.

Back in the day you’d see cleaners with “2kW motor!” as if was a plus rather than a sign of its inefficiency.

Well, the EU killed this. We now have cleaners that are far more efficient, and in fact have much stronger suction power, but have lower rated motors. All good. Nothing to do with Dyson.

The argument was that bagged cleaners use more power when they are full of dust and clogged so the tests should reflect that.

But they wanted their cleaners tested “as new” rather than allowing for the tired seals and loose fittings that make a Dyson under perform once no longer in shop condition.

Dyson were great at PR.

That £5million figure is still making me wobble a bit…

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2219673-cancelled-dyson-electric-car-project-received-5m-from-uk-government/

…I mean, even if production was going ahead, what would we be getting back?

Tesla are held up as the gold standard of electric cars, but if you sit in one and a Merc of the same value they don’t half seem crap in comparison.

to be fair you could say that about every american built car.

Yeah DannyBgoode that’s the complete opposite of how Dyson worked his early ones bragged about a small motor to do a better job. In part because he got rid of bags funny how many followed and then then damn EU making us use less electricity.

Well, the EU killed this. We now have cleaners that are far more efficient, and in fact have much stronger suction power, but have lower rated motors. All good. Nothing to do with Dyson.

Dyson absolutely did lead on this. You could cynically say it was because they sold cleaners with low power motors (at the time their flagship model had a 750w motor when 1.5kw was the industry standard) but they did initially push the EU to brings these standards in. Efficiency was always important in their cleaner development.

And their claimed efficiency lasted about three months. Awful things. I had two. Why I gave them the benefit of the doubt after the first one, I’ll never know.

Who owns the IP from the £5M investment? After all we know how universities invent new drugs and pharma just hoovers up the profit. Does the same apply for Dyson and electric cars and hairdryers?

Tesla had access to a fully fledged Toyota car factory in Fremont, together with the supply chain. I still don’t think they’ll make it to mainstream (see yahoo), but Dyson would be so much further behind.

to be fair you could say that about every american built car.

Not anymore you can’t, much the same as ‘German-made’ hasn’t been a guarantee of quality for a fair while either.

Wait, that’s not how it works.
If you made a decision in 2016, you have to stick to it no matter what Mr Dyson

Have to say I think he’s a grade A Dick and am more than happy for his car venture to fail.

God knows what a Dyson car would look like anyway, brightly coloured ABS plastic body from which bits regularly broke off. But they’d mail out a new wheel arch or whatever when one fell off, for free, as you’d paid for it at £500k for the basic model.

The best thing about this news is the comments sections of the online news; some very witty digs at Dyson.

I come from a vaguely engineering background. Can anyone tell me how a hairdryer costs £50m to develop?
And how do you make money flogging them at £299?

Not anymore you can’t, much the same as ‘German-made’ hasn’t been a guarantee of quality for a fair while either.

Actually, I agree that every US built car isn’t a patch on a Euro built quality motor.

Sat in a couple of directors cars at work, one a Tesla S the other an S-class Merc. Both cost late £90k They were poles apart. The Merc was solid and reassuring, the Tesla had a big tv.

What are the Tuscaloosa built Mercs like? Actually, this all has noting to so with Dyson and his vapourware cars, does it?

Well tbh theres probably more profit and less risk in pushing out fancy hairdryers and vacuums.

Cars are nasty get it wrong and your in a world of pain.

I don’t think you can knock Tesla though they’ve been pushing the autodrive tech full on and actually got a product that you can buy and drive and it’s fairly reasonablish price wise.

I come from a vaguely engineering background. Can anyone tell me how a hairdryer costs £50m to develop?

Either it’s just marketing BS or they’ve employed a load of crap engineers. Equally plausible where Dyson are concerned.

I come from a vaguely engineering background. Can anyone tell me how a hairdryer costs £50m to develop?
And how do you make money flogging them at £299?

Tax R&D credits and he sales an awful lot worldwide.

Sat in a couple of directors cars at work, one a Tesla S the other an S-class Merc. Both cost late £90k They were poles apart. The Merc was solid and reassuring, the Tesla had a big tv.

But did you drive them both or just sit in them? Tesla is all about minimalist design, sublime electric drivetrain and slick functional UI. Merc is more about bling and status. I actually find current Merc interior design hideous, but it’s all very subjective.