> Is the existence of God proveable at all? If we postulate that it’s not proveable, then we can happily believe in it without worrying about proof.

Can we do the same for Unicorns ? Cos they look so cute

Nope, sorry, Christian God killed all the unicorns:

For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34:2-8 KJV

Yay for peace, love and tolerance. 😯

Theologians interested in moral issues have said that if God were unhidden/obvious, human beings would of course choose the good, rather than evil or indifference.

Have I misread or have you misquoted? Coz it looks like these theologians decided that believing/following god is the only good option. The best a none religious person could hope for is “indifference”, nice.

Thats the kind of religious cobblers that can wind people up.

Interesting event Ernie, would be kind of tempted by the free food…. croydon didn’t really sell it to me tho 😉

There are indeed a good many intolerant atheists on here, who, it seems to me, need to repeatedly voice their belief of their denial of a God with much mutual backslapping and hurrah’s.

the religious are known for their own weekly meetups you know, back slapping and hurrahs are often supplemented with a bit of a sing song and maybe some bread and watered down sherry

Is the existence of God proveable at all?

Of course.

God(s) as a concept; is Inter-Subjective. (something that exists within a communications network linking the consciousness of millions of individuals) Like atheism, the rights of humans, the value of money…etc.

So, in those terms: God exists.

I really like the idea of no formal service, it’s more a time of quiet reflection

Methodists are interesting as well, as its not about the building, the priest or the bible its about finding your own way to god and inner peace. The extras (bible, priest, church) are just there to help you find your way, you don’t need them but if you want them they are there to help.

All the Methodists I’ve met have met have been pretty amazing kind people, who reminded me of the kind old people where I grew up who would take food to struggling new mums, pick up kids who had hurt themselves and make sure they got home safe and were in general good neighbours and kind people and never asked for or expected thanks.

My Methodist uncle (vicar or their equivilent) and aunt are total whackjobs though – Harry Potter is the work of the devil, people lived for 900 years before the floods, dinosaurs were put here to test our faith, Buddhists are selfish, Christianity is more forgiving than Islam.

Total loons, but they are nice though – on the outside anyway. I get the feeling that behind the smiley veneer…. if they could get away with it…. they’d start burning unbelievers.

kayla1 is totally right. Rule #1 is all you need.

if they could get away with it…. they’d start burning unbelievers.

kinda goes to the heart of it doesn’t it? Some people are just, y’know, a bit enthusiastic with a torch and a wicker man.

Nope, sorry, Christian God killed all the unicorns:

That’s it, burn them all

Total loons, but they are nice though – on the outside anyway. I get the feeling that behind the smiley veneer…. if they could get away with it…. they’d start burning unbelievers.

Do you reckon they would be as loony if they weren’t Methodists? As it sounds a bit like even if they were atheists they would sit fuming over the daily mail 🙂

We have a Methodist church in the village – the only danger of any burning there is from the copious amounts of freshly brewed tea. 😀

But I do recall going to a happy-clappy inter-faith carol service one Christmas (not my idea!) and at the end we discovered that our 93 year old grandma’s wheelchair had gone missing (by honest mistake).

We relayed our predicament to the resident padre and his eyes noticeably narrowed as he whispered: “It’ll be one of those… Methodists!”

😆

a shame to feel constrained or tied to one set of lenses IMO. No harm in picking the best bits and ignoring the rest,

The Bible is pretty clear about only having one true god and not taking others but it is what many Christians do – not a dig but it is interesting how few christians follow all the rules in the book.
New agers do this across religions though and buy into Karma and Ying and Yang for example. This is what interests me in religion we[ humans] seem to have an innate need to find reason and we postulate god to explain this
There are no societies* that exist without gods as we seem to need this.

* Ok there are some politically atheist ones

“Science is about explanation. Religion is about meaning. Science analyses, religion integrates. Science breaks things down to their component parts. Religion binds people together in relationships of trust. Science tells us what is. Religion tells us what ought to be. Science describes. Religion beckons, summons, calls. Science sees objects. Religion speaks to us as subjects. Science practices detachment. Religion is the art of attachment, self to self, soul to soul. Science sees the underlying order of the physical world. Religion hears the music beneath the noise. Science is the conquest of ignorance. Religion is the redemption of solitude.”

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who I quote above, is always interesting.

I can’t help thinking that the good Rabbi is conflating Religion with Philosophy and Humanity a bit there.

same thing really, a shared set of values to make sense of the Human condition. (that isn’t biology)

He would probably argue there is nothing to conflate as religion incorporates philosophy and humanity.

Science Questions
Humanity Thinks
Religion Dictates

another version of the good Rabbi

In the end it comes down to the fact that good people would be good without religion, bad the same, I really feel for those who are doing bad things because they think religion makes them all right.

same thing really,

except only one of those comes with a “God Approved!” sticker and everything that disagrees is supposedly heresy.

Bringing gods into it tips the scales

In the end it comes down to the fact that good people would be good without religion, bad the same, I really feel for those who are doing bad things because they think religion makes them all right.

Do you not think that these people would find another reason to do bad things if religion didn’t exist, as for some people just want money and power and will find *something* to excuse their actions.

Also I would disagree about the Religion dictates, it tries to guide you, just some people aren’t good at understanding directions.

He would probably argue there is nothing to conflate as religion incorporates philosophy and humanity.

And I would suggest he is being a little disingenuous by implying that is the only way they can exist.

You could equally argue that Science incorporates philosophy and humanity too.

Some of the biggest scientific searches are to find answers to questions that are strongly philosophical (e.g. where do we come from? Are we alone? What is our universe made from? Why do we think? What is consciousness? What is time?)

I really feel for those who are doing bad things because they think religion makes them all right.

I often (okay not often, more like very occasionally) wonder about this. If you’re born into and brought up by parents and community leaders who instil in you a set of values that eventually leads you to believe that your preferred deity wants you to murder yourself and a load of people who worship a different deity then what happens if you get to the afterlife and lo and behold it’s the other sides deity that is standing there to greet you?

I often (okay not often, more like very occasionally) wonder about this. If you’re born into and brought up by parents and community leaders who instil in you a set of values that eventually leads you to believe that your preferred deity wants you to murder yourself and a load of people who worship a different deity then what happens if you get to the afterlife and lo and behold it’s the other sides deity that is standing there to greet you?

You would be dead, so I guess it would be a little late for regret. 🙂

You would hope that if you were told to kill other people to force your views on someone else your own moral compass would tell you something is wrong. It wouldn’t though as there are numerous examples in our recent history where evil people have programmed ordinary everyday people to do terrible things, this has nothing to do with religion as lots of secular groups have done it in recent history (Hilter, Stalin, Khmer rouge, Chairman Mao to name a few)

You would hope that if you were told to kill other people to force your views on someone else your own moral compass would tell you something is wrong

I wouldn’t count on that

Science Questions
Humanity Thinks
Religion Dictates

Not entirely sure that all religion dictates…?

So – how about this:

Religion is like art – you can define it however you like, and others may follow you if they like.

Religion is like art – you can define it however you like, and others may follow you if they like

I am not sure most religions are like this – I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

I am not sure most religions are like this – I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

When I say ‘others may follow’ that might mean a couple of billion people!

However I am free to start my own if I like. In this country, I am legally free to do so.

Incidentally I think people are brought up to question – but the answers are biased because people will tend to find the answers they want to find…

Not entirely sure that all religion dictates…?

Well I’d hesitate to speak for all religions but it was certainly true of my Catholic upbringing.

I am not sure most religions are like this – I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

I don’t think that’s true for most religions, as its all about you figuring out the way to god, there isn’t a step by step guide that guarantees success, so you have to figure it out yourself, which in turn promotes free thought. Doubt is normal part of faith.

Out of interest have you ever been to a church/mosque/temple? Or are you beliefs based on what you think happens?

Well I’d hesitate to speak for all religions but it was certainly true of my Catholic upbringing.

That might be because Catholicism is more like a business at times than a faith 🙂

The religion I’ve experienced* talks a lot about choice, I don’t know that our vicar has ever said anything about “you must do this or else”. It’s part of what makes going to our local church such a pleasant experience, I couldn’t say I’m a person of faith by any stretch, but a lot of the tenants of Christianity I think are great, and if more people followed them, the world would be a happier place. But I don’t know if I could agree that religion dictates*.

* YMMV.

tenants of Christianity

Sorry, made me smile.

andyfla – Member
Religion is like art – you can define it however you like, and others may follow you if they like
I am not sure most religions are like this – I would have thought most people are bought up in a religion and are generally taught never to question it but to just believe.

Which flies in the face of the notion of free will….but never mind

The Church’s influence over society has waned in the UK to the extent that I hardly know anyone who is taught by rote what to believe.
Essentially the culture dominates peoples thinking, and I would argue that our culture is Positivist and based around Scientism/Scientific Rationalism, which is at root an ideology. This is why atheism is increasingly dominant.
We are simply not going to return to a theocratic society, so the posters who get so angered about religious intolerance are protesting at a straw man. Intolerance towards religion, however, is growing, and this thread largely demonstrates this. Some of the posters seem to exhibit the fury and need to control others which would have made them effective cardinals in the seventeenth-century Vatican.

The Church’s influence over society has waned in the UK to the extent that I hardly know anyone who is taught by rote what to believe.

Not all versions of Christianity teach you that anyway. See Methodists above. Although the church’s influence is waning, of course, but I suspect it’s more the case that many churches are adapting to the congregation’s diminishing appetite for strict rules and learning by rote – and have been for centuries.

I read your post Molgrips but can’t work out – are you disagreeing with me or agreeing? It’s not clear.

We are simply not going to return to a theocratic society, so the posters who get so angered about religious intolerance are protesting at a straw man.

(some of) the religious are still intolerant, its just that they aren’t as powerful any more (tho they do still have some “special” powers). Opposing intolerance, religious or otherwise, in minority groups is still valid.

are you disagreeing with me or agreeing?

Both.

You’re correct that the church’s influence is waning, but the church doesn’t necessarily mean teaching by rote anyway, depending on the church. Teaching by rote has been diminishing for centuries as new Christian movements were founded.

(some of) the religious are still intolerant

Same as the rest of us.

Both, with historical context.

Although it can also be said, with a geographic context, that interest in christianity has been waning for some time here in North Western Europe, it’s still as strong as old boots in other parts of the world, take Latin America and SE Asia for example. Boy, some of those areas really love Il Papa.

Which flies in the face of the notion of free will….but never mind

at our religious school it was mixed, we certainly didn’t have free will over attending religious “studies” but did get it over belief. It was perfectly possible to choose not to believe…

and to spend an eternity in hell for doing so.

Same as the rest of us

I know, but someone seemed to be suggesting that coz religion has waned a little we should stop pointing out their transgressions.

It was perfectly possible to choose not to believe…
and to spend an eternity in hell for doing so.

If you don’t believe in God then you don’t believe in Hell either – happy days.