Someone buys a flat above a music venue…
The slow inexorable death of culture.
Complete hyperbole. While there are musicians who want to gig, there will be places for them to play.Posted 2 months ago
Are you talking about the residents or the venue?
The venue was there first by around 30 years, the venue is an important part of what makes that area what it is and most importantly the venue enriches the lives of the 1000’s of people who frequent it on a regular basis. Read the article. Its one persons selfishness.Posted 2 months ago
Posted 2 months ago
Urban myth that a townie moved into countryside and complained about a farmers cock crowing, went to court and incomer won, next thing they know is the rest of the village went out & bought some cocks 🐓Posted 2 months ago
Just to address a point that a couple of people have made up thread, I know from following the local news up here that the venue in question have taken all sorts of steps to try and minimise disruption as much as possible.
It is just not the case that they are simply expecting to continue without making any sort of reasonable adjustment at all.Posted 2 months ago
Its one persons selfishness.
You’ve spent the thread chucking insults around and avoiding the swear filter:
Anyone moving into the area and then complaining about one of that areas most important aspects is an utter ****.
But hey, **** culture eh?
Which as you know is breaking forum rules. And that to support a business that has twice been served notices for breaking the rules.
Some people seem incapable of respecting rules that are in the general interest.Posted 2 months ago
A bloke I know rented a flat and after a few weeks mentioned in a mildly objecting way to a local garage / mechanics / business that once a week a noisy alarm went off and was there any need for it? Garage blokio said it wasn’t their alarm but the one for the big scary maximum security hospital on the other side of the trees and the alarm’s used for announcing to locals to lock and nail their doors and grab a baseball bat. Dude’d just moved to Crowthorne in Berkshire and had no idea what was next door….Posted 2 months ago
Read the article. Its one persons selfishness.
The venue operators do also say in the article that the area has become more residential. So it’s not like they’ve suddenly had residents nearby;
“Night & Day is located at 26 Oldham Street. Over the past 15 years, flats have been built or existing buildings converted to flats around us”
although they make the point that there’s been little consideration made to what’s there already. Having said that, it’s hardly the residents fault eitherPosted 2 months ago
What rules have i broken? Can you point to the one where you are not allowed to allude to a swear word and use asterisks? Who have i insulted? The only person i have insulted is the person who made the complaint.Posted 2 months ago
Having said that, it’s hardly the residents fault either
Its a bus route into Piccadilly Gardens, literally the absolute centre of Manchester in a spot renowned for its music and nightlife scene. You’d have to be a special kind of dickhead to move there and imagine it’ll be a haven of peace and quiet.Posted 2 months ago
This is the worst aspect of gentrification. The things that make an area popular get pushed out. This includes people as well as businesses. Losing Night and Day would be big loss. Hopefully Sacha Lord will get on the case. Happy 30th N&D.Posted 2 months ago
Here you go, Blackflag:
No abusive or foul language – There is a swear filter on the site that will capture what we consider to be the most offensive vocabulary but any attempt to evade this swear filter will result in that post or thread being deleted. Repeat offenders will be banned. Our swear filter is not exhaustive and the moderators reserve the right to moderate any language regardless of its inclusion or otherwise in the swear filter library.
I’m not bothered about you swearing and avoiding the filter. But you’re defending a business that knows the rules and continues to break them hence the petition.Posted 2 months ago
I applied the *** myself. So didnt swear. Did i? If **** wasnt allowed then the auto changer wouldnt change the full version to the asterisk version would it?
And yes I AM defending the business and the culture of a city which benefits a great many people from the actions of a very small minority who move into an area and then try to change it against the wishes of the majority.Posted 2 months ago
Happened to the Nags Head* in Wycombe, flats built nearby, occupant(s) complained so the venue did what they could to reduce the noise resulting in the music “loft” becoming an overheated hell hole when gigs were on. Now the venue has been converted into flats itself 🙁
*admittedly the final nails in the coffin were 1. becoming a gay bar & 2. the landlord not paying the vat bill..
* only pub I’ve been told off by the landlord for being too smartly dressedPosted 2 months ago
Not exactly a quiet cul-de-sac.
Seems a pity to waste moderator time to explain the rules to you Blackflag. I don’t noramally like disturbing them but in this case they’re the only one who can settle the argument.
But you see where you’re going with this, the same direction as the Night and Day owner.Posted 2 months ago
Youv’e gone running off to the mods because i put an asterisked swear word in my post?? Because i don’t agree with your viewpoint? Or have you self appointed yourself as a mod too? Thats so amazingly pathetic.Posted 2 months ago
I’m mimicking what’s happening to the venue, Blackflag. You’re the shouty sweary one, not me. I’m being reasonable, your language is sweary and hyperbolic.
Of course I’m not a self-appointed mod, I’m not a mod either. But there’s a system and it’s there to be used.
I don’t agree with your viewpoint but that’s no reason to get shouty and sweary, so I don’t.Posted 2 months ago
Whos shouting??? You seem to be making this personal. All my posts are talking about the people involved in the situation. You are the one who decided to try and interact with me directly.Posted 2 months ago
And this isn’t personal?
Youv’e gone running off to the mods because i put an asterisked swear word in my post?? Because i don’t agree with your viewpoint? Or have you self appointed yourself as a mod too? Thats so amazingly pathetic.
From the previous page looks pretty shouty to me. It’s your general attitude and tone too. Read back and think about how you’d feel on the recieveing end of your comments.Posted 2 months ago
In a previous career I had a job doing noise impact assessments and the like for new developments. In general the process is poor and lacks technical rigour, despite the efforts by most involved to try to better it. When I was involved, anyone with a calibrated sound level meter could do an assessment and write a report. The incomer would appoint a consultant to do an assessment for the planning application. They could do with this assessment what they liked, even bin it and get another consultant if they wanted. Contracts were often awarded to the cheapest bidder. As with a lot of the building industry it was a race to the bottom on cost and quality. Most councils are stretched with resources and can lack technical competence, especially in areas outside of the cities.
An assessment for new housing should not miss an existing music venue or a noisy rail yard. That’s incompetence on the part of the consultant. If such venues or industry exist then the incomer should migrate against them. If that’s not possible then planning should be refused. However, unless there is a complaint, the effectiveness of mitigation proposed is never tested. It would be unlikely that say a barrier fence was checked that it does what it should, other than someone seeing that a fence was built.
The preferred assessment process has/had flaws. It allowed for the background noise level to slowly creep up, as long as you weren’t a certain amount over the existing background noise level you could match/add to that background level. Then the next factory/rail yard/takeaway/supermarket comes along and is assessed against the background noise level which now includes the last factory/rail yard/takeaway/supermarket. They push the background noise level up a bit more. Repeat.
An alternative approach other countries use is an absolute level that can’t be exceeded within a zone so if someone else is making the all noise you can’t build your noise making thing there.
Maybe @rt60 can comment on my thoughts?
An example I can think of where the existing noise producer has stood their ground is Dalton’s scrap metal yard in Leith, as seen in Trainspotting 2 outside Sickboy’s flat.Posted 2 months ago
Words look shouty??? Is that the voices in your head your applying to my text? I can’t help that…
And yes i got personal eventually, but only after you did by trying to tell me how to behave and saying you were going to go telling the mods about me avoiding the swear filter by not actually swearing.
I don’t noramally like disturbing them but in this case they’re the only one who can settle the argument.
You come across like a retired teacher who’s in everyone elses business. Oh hang on “edukator” is that where the name comes from?Posted 2 months ago
I had a look at the building on Google Earth before commenting. It’s pretty clear that the building is of the order of 100 years old and the dwellings above it were there before the music venue.Posted 2 months ago
Edukator comes from a bunch of anarchists in one of my favourite films:
As for being in everyone’s business, I’m arguing against people signing a petition which is none of their business.Posted 2 months ago
Well i’m intrigued now… Why is a petition to protect a music venue none of their business? They could be signing it because they live in the area, have visited and enjoyed the venue, want to see the vibrancy of the NQ maintained or as part of an overall attempt to stop the ongoing reduction of live music venues in this country (especially smaller venues). All of these are quite valid are they not?Posted 2 months ago
Well one of them lives in Australia.Posted 2 months ago
Well one of them lives in Australia.
So?Posted 2 months ago
We did this topic some years back. I mentioned a French farmers answer to a British couple who complained about him farming close to their new business venture.
People were up in arms like I hung their pet dogs from a tree in the garden or made the programme broadcast on a national TV channel!Posted 2 months ago
It’s pretty clear that the building is of the order of 100 years old and the dwellings above it were there before the music venue.
Barring the fact people who actually lived there over the past few decades say otherwise.
EDIT – Aaargh **** I got sucked in!Posted 2 months ago
You guys still haven’t grasped it. I’m playing the town council who are acting on complaints and you’re playing the venue owner. You can rant and isult as much as you like but it won’t progress your cause, in fact it’ll just result in entrenched positions.
If there was a time to salvage something it was at the time of the first noise abatement order a couple of years back. That was the time to sound insulate and get kitted up with db meter sound limiters on the PA. Cooperate with the authorities and get within the rules. The venue got a second noise abatement order which tells us that wasn’t done.
In some cases the crowd is making so much noise the PA won’t work, the crowd noise is already so high the system only lets whimper out of the PA.
If there’s professional experience I have relating to this it was with Welsh Water as one of those reading people their rights in pollution cases. The wise people invested in pollution control, got their house in order and cooperated. Some others thought ingnoring my recommendations and setting the dogs at me or marching us off the land at shotgun point was a better solution. Thing is we went back with the police (bizarrely unarmed) and there was no longer scope for compromise/cooperation, it was with a court order for remedial work at their expense.
It’s just the way the world works, and collectively were better off for it. Take on the authorities who defend the rights of you, me, all of us and you’d better be sure you’re within your rights, because if you aren’t you’ll lose.Posted 2 months ago
You guys still haven’t grasped it.
I think anyone familiar with your posting history grasps it perfectly.Posted 2 months ago
BTW it’s Tort Law, Nuisance.
There’s loads of websites with the case law/precedents, some of them quite surprising! There’s even a precedent for the number of dogs kept in a dwelling!Posted 2 months ago
@dmorts I would broadly agree with everything you said, I will try not to derail the thread with a rant or long boring lecture (it may be to late for that mind!). Noise nuisance and abatement notices etc is a key part of what i do, unfortunately i have been an expert witness in court on both sides of the fence far too many times.
The biggest issue in the UK is that noise has no real Central Government management, unlike most other countries there are not really any national rules or directives as to acceptable levels, for planning guidance the NPPF and indeed the noise planning practice guidance make no mention of decibel levels. It is just farmed out to Local Authorities to manage th ebest they can, and they have had a massive loss in expertise over the last 10 years or so.
Anyone can set themselves up as a consultant, and historically most of the wide-boys got picked up by the Local Authorities and after a while of all their reports being refused they stopped getting so much work. I would be very surprised if that was happening today.
Creeping backgrounds will continue in urban areas, the changes to BS4142 in 2014 made things better but didnt fix the issue, and unless there is the will from Central Government to fix it then it will not change.
In terms of noise nuisance and this case, there are no fixed levels for noise nuisance, the assessment is always (and the courts have ruled can only ever be) a subjective one. This takes into account among other factors the nature of the area, the frequency of disturbance, the time of disturbance, the impact of the disturbance.
That an abatement notice was served in the past and another was served recently indicates that works were successful in abating the previous nuisance, but there has been a change (most likely new residents) which has lead to another one being served. Abatement notices do not have an expiry date so if the original nuisance was reoccurring then the first notice could in theory be enforced.
If the issue is structure borne noise then the addition of insulation etc will not have any impact, it will likely be necessary to construct a room within a room to mechanically isolate the sound from the structure, that can be more expensive than building a new building.
There is no absolute requirement to abate the nuisance, for any commercial premises there is a defence of ‘best practicable means’ which means that everything that can reasonably be expected to abate the nuisance, taking into account both cost and loss of earnings, has been done.
The petition will have no impact on getting the Council to withdraw the notice if they are confident a nuisance is occurring. But i hope that a way forward can be found that will allow the venue to keep operating and achieve best practicable means (oddly they may already have it, as the duty to serve a notice is still in place even if the council think they may have a BPM defence).Posted 2 months ago
Happened to the Nags Head* in Wycombe,
I went to a few gigs there! Very spit and sawdust, loved it. Such a shame!Posted 2 months ago
You side easily with people prosecuted under the control of pollution act 1972, Blackflag. If ever you sit on a Welsh beach with clean sand and water, think of the bloke who was prepared to take on the polluters and win. Though clean sand and water are no longer a given since the wilfully destructive were elected to run the show and ripped up the rule book.Posted 2 months ago
You side easily with people prosecuted under the control of pollution act 1972, Blackflag.
COPA was 1974 and in any case has largelyPosted 2 months ago
34 years since I read it to anybody. the 1974 COPA was based on the European Communities Act 1972.Posted 2 months ago
This can be so loud that the bass vibrates everything in the flat – even the water in the toilet is rippling!
Ahh, reminds me of having bath & my eldest was into dj’ing his drum & base shit next door, such fond memories.Posted 2 months ago
When I play my bass I have to go around picking up things that have fallen off shelves.Posted 2 months ago
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.