Solving toe overlap?

I took a gamble during lockdown and spent a lot of cash on a bike that I couldn’t test ride first. According to the size chart I between a 54 & 56 frame size but I opted for the 54. Bike turns up and fits fine but I have severe toe rub which I can only solve by moving my cleats way out of position! I know nothing about bike geometry but is there a specific frame measurement that could determine if the next size up would cure this issue? This is not a stealth ad but it might be soon ☺️

Assuming you mean toes rubbing on the wheel, it only comes up in really low speed corners and you learn to avoid it pretty quickly. Not a real issue imo

Toe overlap? This is something that really bugs me on a bike but a lot of people will tell you that you’ll soon learn to sub consciously ride around it. Don’t compromise cleat position if you know you’ve got it right.

The dimension you’re interested in is front centre. Typically not always quoted. A rough approximation can be achieved by subtracting chainstay from wheelbase (only rough due to bottom bracket drop). Dimension needed depends on crank length, shoe size, cleat position, tyre size and whether you run mud guards.

Quite common on road bikes. The faster the handling, the more likely it is due to steep head angle and short wheelbase. It’s only an issue is there’s likely to be a lot of steering input while pedalling. It’s techy climbs on a gravel bike that bug me. One of the reasons I like the look of the new Cotic Cascade.

Top tube length would give a proxy measurement I guess if it was say 2cm longer you’d expect fork/wheel to be forward by similar amount.

I had overlap issues on a medium Camino and changed to a large for that reason. Can’t recall the top tube difference but probably 2cm and that was enough, no overlap.

You could always go shorter cranks instead. Less reduction though.

The only time i have ever had an issue with toe rub was strathpuffer on a peregrine with studded tyres wearing my winter boots.

its just a non issue on any other bike i have had including fixed gears. is the issue that you have toe overlapping the front wheel while you are doing wee circles trying it out or in actual real world riding?

Toe overlap?

That’s what I meant to call it! (stealth change of title!)

It’s techy climbs on a gravel bike that bug me.

Yup, it’s on my gravel bike so really bugs me!

Top tube length would give a proxy measurement I guess if it was say 2cm longer you’d expect fork/wheel to be forward by similar amount.

That’s what I was thinking. The difference in the 2 frame sizes TT length looks like its only about 10mm

in actual real world riding?

Unfortunately in real world!

165mm cranks.

How much extra clearance do you need?

How much extra clearance do you need?

I’m unsure but it is quite severe and I guess the extra 10mm TT length won’t be enough!!

Dimensions of the 54cm frame

VIEW FULL DIMENSIONS
(MM UNLESS SPECIFIED)
A > SEAT TUBE C/T 540
B > SEAT TUBE C/C 493.5
C > BB DROP 73
D > REAR CENTRE 435
E > TT EFFECTIVE 551
F > TT ACTUAL 534.4
G > STACK 568.1
H > REACH 376.2
I > STAND-OVER 799.4
J > OFFSET 50
K > TRAIL 68.7
L > FORK CROWN HEIGHT 398
M > HEAD ANGLE 71.0
N > HEAD TUBE LENGTH 145
O > SEAT TUBE ANGLE 73
P > WHEELBASE 1028.4
Q > HANDLEBAR (OUTSIDE DIMENSION) 44

Dimensions of the 56cm frame

VIEW FULL DIMENSIONS
(MM UNLESS SPECIFIED)
A > SEAT TUBE C/T 560
B > SEAT TUBE C/C 513.7
C > BB DROP 73
D > REAR CENTRE 435
E > TT EFFECTIVE 561.4
F > TT ACTUAL 546.3
G > STACK 579.5
H > REACH 383.4
I > STAND-OVER 814.8
J > OFFSET 50
K > TRAIL 65.4
L > FORK CROWN HEIGHT 398
M > HEAD ANGLE 71.5
N > HEAD TUBE LENGTH 155
O > SEAT TUBE ANGLE 73
P > WHEELBASE 1034.4
Q > HANDLEBAR (OUTSIDE DIMENSION) 44

About 8mm difference in wheelbase which is probably going to be lost when you put the cleats back where they belong. Will it run either wheel size?

NB the head angle gets slightly steeper on the larger size which is why you don’t get the extra 10mm from the top tube.

A 54cm/small cascade would give you about 2.5″ more between the bottom bracket and front tyre. The likely wider Q-factor might buy you a few extra mm as well. Still longer than the next size up on your current bike.

Not normally a helpful thing to say to someone who’s just bought a bike, but a frame/bike swap seems to be implied in the OP. All depends what sort of riding you see yourself doing with it long term.

I’ve only had problems with it when borrowing/riding bikes too small. I would suggest getting a larger frame (probably not the answer you wanted). It bugged the hell out of me every time.

The change in wheelbase will give you the delta. Chainstay length (rear centre) is almost always the same on the same bike in different sizes. All the change in wheelbase is therefore forward of the bottom bracket. So includes any slight changes in headangle into the calculation.

For the above 2 bikes it’s around 6mm. Not likely to stop toe overlap. Shorter cranks might work.

Assuming you mean toes rubbing on the wheel, it only comes up in really low speed corners and you learn to avoid it pretty quickly. Not a real issue imo

This – ordered a dream build winter road bike in lockdown, but mudguards, 52cm frame and size 9 winter boots means awful overlap.

I’ve adjusted to it, you just time pedal strokes and steering better. Still not “solved” but no longer doing my head in.

I’d agree that you can learn to ride around it for road riding and commuting. You can also ride around the problem on gravel right up until the point where you can’t. Really slow climbs where the pedals have to keep turning combined with loose rocky terrain knocking the wheel off line can make it a very ride limiting issue.

From a Mtb p o v ,it Put me off buying a 29” bike for a good while, had a few demo days when they became mainstream.I Ride flats and didnt like it, cant imagine what its like clipped in .Not a problem now with with more modern long and slack bikes.

You could try a slackerizier headset or whatever they’re called. Fairly sure superstarcomponents have some. Other brands are probably available. Slackens the front end.

Moves the bars a bit closer but moves the front wheel out a fair bit by the time you get to axle.

Not perfect and it will alter the steering slightly but IMHO, people get too hung up on numbers and stuff like that so real world you either wont notice it or you’ll get used to it.

But if you’re talking need the front wheel to move out a significant amount you definitely bought too small.

650b?

Im gobsmacked this is a thing on gravel bikes which are supposedly built fir stuff where you’ll be doing slowish, trickyish climbs.

I’d be taking it back to the shop and saying not fit for purpose.

( but I accept that, based on the comments above, it’s a known and accepted thing, so I wouldn’t get anywhere 😀)

So 165mm cranks, as the poster above says.

Im gobsmacked this is a thing on gravel bikes which are supposedly built fir stuff where you’ll be doing slowish, trickyish climbs.

I’d be taking it back to the shop and saying not fit for purpose.

I did try that one but didn’t get very far!

650b?

I’ve a set each and get it with both sizes!

If it’s an expensive frame I can see the conundrum. I once bought a demo gravel/monstercross bike on a whim. But did test-ride it for a weekend as it was an inbetweeny size (am normally medium but later discovered the mfr suggests large for my height)

It felt to be the correct reach though, but some godsforsaken reason I didn’t pick up on the toe overlap during test-ride and so the issue bugged me for a few years until eventually sold it and bought a longer/similar bike.

Sorry have no better suggestions.

Different (smaller) tyres
Different (shorter) cranks
Different shoes? Some models stick out more/less from the profile of your foot
Different pedals (wider stance)

Although I’ll add a vote to the “not too bothered about the overlap I have” camp. Even on slow climbs.

Toes are over-rated… Chop them off! 😆

Not an issue on a road bike, might be on gravel though. One on my road bikes has quite a lot of overlap and it’s ony noticeable if riding slowly and turning whilst pedalling, otherwise never an issue.

Unfortunately it is generally a consequence of smaller bikes as the frame gets smaller from size to size, but the wheels and geometry don’t.

Shorter cranks is potentially the quickest and easiest change to make, though still not cheap and might not completely cure the issue. Bonus is that the geometry doesn’t change.

Still never understand why this issue isn’t commonly called toeverlap…

But the downer with short cranks is you’ll feel like youre pedalling a kids bike. Horrible sensation.

the downer with short cranks is you’ll feel like youre pedalling a kids bike. Horrible sensation.

I notice for 5 minutes tops after coming from longer cranks. It’s just pedalling after that. A lot of people report the same.

Bradley Wiggins 6’4″ ran 165mm.cranks in Rio. Didn’t stop him.

Thing is, if it’s a small bike, it probably comes with 170, 172.5 at most. Dropping to 165mm cranks gains 7.5mm.

It sounds more like the frame is the wrong tool for the job.

Just thinking about this, you might be able to get a replacement fork with a greater offset.

It sounds more like the frame is the wrong tool for the job.

Marketed as the be all and end all of gravel bikes I’m gobsmacked at how bad the toeverlap (😂) actually is. #fastfar

Have I missed what the bike is or is there a reason your being cryptic?

I think it’s a Mason Bokeh.

Whatever this particular gravel bike is, it’s a lot easier to buy one with toe overlap than without

I’m gobsmacked at how bad the toeverlap (😂) actually is.

Woohoo!

Looking at the geometry and comparing it to my frames (Litespeed T5G, Open UPPER and Carbonda) there’s very little in it in terms of frontcentre measurement. I’m running a mix of tyres – 700*40 on the LS, 700*32 on the Upper and 700*32 with guards on the Carbonda. I have 175mm on the LS/Upper and 170mm on the Carbonda (as it gets used in the winter and I wear thick overshoes over size 10 winter MTB boots) and ai get the barest of contacts on the Carbonda when wearing the massive overshoes and nothing on the others…are you wearing massive shoes or do you have huuuge feet? Are your cleats in the rearmost position, thus your feet are quite forward?

Shorter cranks
at about 6:28 in